3-Point Hold v. 4-Point Hold
- Thread starter MrMoon360
- Start date
DriftSlave
Active Member
I'm not too crazy about the change tbh, but if it's for the best then i'll give it a shot...but i was just getting used to the alpha...It's to be expected tho.
BlackOrochi
Member
Raasu, there are beautiful things called "Free Cancelling", "Mid-Grabs", "High-Launchers" and "Low-Attacks" (at LEAST 4 options!) that allow you to go around a basic Mid-Holds. If your concern is having too many Mid attacks in move sets, Team Ninja could add extra variations to moves and combos to make up for that imbalance.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Doesn't matter how many options there are. They are all stopped by either mid hold or low hold.
We can invent as many options as we like here, but as long as they are all stopped by either one of those holds the odds remain exactly the same. There is still a 50% chance of failure on each strike and only a 12.5% chance of success on reaching the end of the threshold and launching.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
http://freestepdodge.com/threads/actual-odds-of-beating-the-threshold.735/
I'm really not going to go any further then that. It boggles my mind that anyone would want a 3 point hold outside of wanting the game to be easy for them.
BlackOrochi
Member
I've already been through the number game with Rikuto, and I am fully aware of the new odds presented by the 4pt system. However, I feel that most 4pt advocates can't handle the greater challenge within the 3pt system. Am i wrong?
Don't get it twisted, all I'm asking is to be convinced by the 4pt system. But, to this day, I still haven't read an argument that truly makes it a must-have. Basically, all 4pt advocates are saying:
- "We want higher odds to perform longer combos" (Is longer combos your only focus in DOA? Has it ever been the core of DOA? I'm of those who believe that landing a long combo in DOA should be earned, and therefore more impressive/rewarding for the attacker and humiliating for the defender. Lower odds give more credit to offensive geniuses who manages to pull one off.)
- "I don't like Mid-Hold Spammers" (Mid-Hold spammers are the easiest opponents to beat... need I say more?) ;
- If I have missed one, please feel free to bring it forward. Because all I'm asking for is to be convinced.
Like I said to EMPEROR_COW, promoting easier and lengthy combos by unnecessarily complexifying defense will never get my vote. Yes, the timing, the damage, and the recover time of Holds may be broken, but not the Rock-Paper-Scissor system that keeps them together. And If it ain't broken, don't try to fix.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
The issue you're not understanding is that strikes do pitiful damage in DOA 4/5, so yes there has to be higher odds of striking successfully.
I did a 12 hit combo with hayate that barely scratched the surface of getting 1/4 of a lifebar. It only takes one izuna, counter or throw, to do more than 1/3rd and typically close to 1/2th
You need to get a LOT of hits to make any substantial damage without a high-counter damage modifier. It's not the desire to do long combos, it's the desire to make them meaningful. I can't do that when the damage is horrible compared to every other option and the odds are even worse.
I did a 12 hit combo with hayate that barely scratched the surface of getting 1/4 of a lifebar. It only takes one izuna, counter or throw, to do more than 1/3rd and typically close to 1/2th
You need to get a LOT of hits to make any substantial damage without a high-counter damage modifier. It's not the desire to do long combos, it's the desire to make them meaningful. I can't do that when the damage is horrible compared to every other option and the odds are even worse.
DriftSlave
Active Member
I just got used to the demo tbh. It had nothing really to do with 3-4 point holds. Im just alittle slower to adapt is all.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
I understand your feelings sir. I remember when I went from DOA 3 to DOA2U, you better believe it took some adapting.
Trust me, in the long run this is way way better. As you start to become a force in the game, you'll be glad it's 4 point.
BlackOrochi
Member
Why not just increase damage of hits then? That would largely solve your problem, wouldn't it?
Skilletor
Active Member
Why should the person who fucked up have the opportunity to do as much or more damage than the person who didn't?
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
And often I have thought about that, but it effects a lot of other things at the same time.
The more extravagant combos all become death combos, and you also have to consider that solution also makes certain throws more powerful as well... IE any of the throw launchers that already result in 100+ damage would probably do around 90% lifebar. Anything into a ceiling would be instant death.
It's a big can of worms to open.
I've got no problem with death combos when you set yourself up for it and deserve it, but this would create a lot of situations where it would happen with no prior warning or strategic element involved other than luck.
There are other solutions though... come E3 we will go into them more in-depth.
The more extravagant combos all become death combos, and you also have to consider that solution also makes certain throws more powerful as well... IE any of the throw launchers that already result in 100+ damage would probably do around 90% lifebar. Anything into a ceiling would be instant death.
It's a big can of worms to open.
I've got no problem with death combos when you set yourself up for it and deserve it, but this would create a lot of situations where it would happen with no prior warning or strategic element involved other than luck.
There are other solutions though... come E3 we will go into them more in-depth.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
It's not the length of a combo, it's NEVER been about the length of a combo. If we cared about the length of a combo we wouldn't be asking for more normal hit launchers. Most of us despise how doa4 works with the launch threshold and having to attack more then we actually need to. If I had my way I would alter the stuns to be more like hit stuns in VF and create a stun/launch system. Lower the amount of stuns in the game and earn that stun thus rewarding the player. None of us want to play that forever guessing game, which is why we hate doa4 and which is why the holds in stun argument went on for like what 20 pages? (An argument that got off the wrong foot with me and Rikuto because I'm bad at explaining things, but thats another story.)
The issue is about the lack of control, its the lack of pressure. There was no fear in doa4 because there was no control. The 3 point hold worked in DoA3.1 because the game allowed good players to control their opponent when they outsmart them. There were enough tools to work around the holds that the 3 point holds were not much of an issue, and even with that system, a 4 point hold would of been better. Myself and anyone else here who has played 3.1 has probably lost count on how many times someone has randomly thrown out a mid hold either by accident or just randomly throwing it out there and catching something almost every time. You can free cancel all you want, you can mix things up all you want, but at the end of the day the MAJORITY of every characters move set are MID attacks.
Trust me, none of us give a damn about the length of a combo, its about maximizing damage and using the best options to pressure the opponent.
BlackOrochi
Member
I'm not sure what you mean, but I'd say increase hit damage, and decrease hold damage. Voila!
PhoenixVFIRE
Well-Known Member
He means the person who got stunned. Why should they have multiple chances to save themselves when it's their own fault they got stunned.
BlackOrochi
Member
We're talking about increasing damage reasonably. Enough for it to be significant, not to promote 90-100% damage.
If the fact that characters have too many MIDs in their move sets is a problem, wouldn't adding more move and combo variations solve the issue?
Thanks for the clarification
It's funny because I heard that same argument before from players who were completely against Holds in general. They feel that stunned characters should not deserve a chance to get out of a stun. They want Holds abolished! Now, in my opinion, that completely defeats the purpose of Hold & DOA in general. A DOA without Holds isn't DOA.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
*facepalm* you just don't get it and I'm not wasting my time on someone who never will.
Is VF5FS out yet? I'm ready to get away from DoA mentality for a little while.
Skilletor
Active Member
Thanks for the clarification
It's funny because I heard that same argument before from players who were completely against Holds in general. They feel that stunned characters should not deserve a chance to get out of a stun. They want Holds abolished! Now, in my opinion, that completely defeats the purpose of Hold & DOA in general. A DOA without Holds isn't DOA.
Oh, word. So DoA1 isn't a DoA now. Got it.
BlackOrochi
Member
Come on... You know what i mean, Skilletor...
How can altering or enriching move sets NOT address the issue you brought up about too many MIDs?