DOA5 E3 Build: The Good, Bad and Ugly

[AKNova7]

DOA will always have a casual fan base. What we're trying to do here is make it a competitive fighting game. It has already been proven in the past that DOA as it currently stands is not considered a competitive fighter my the greater FGC. That's why things need to be changed.

The "Greater FGC", personally, is insignificant. Even being a part of different FGs (Soul Calibur 5), the game that we play, DOA, shouldn't be made to cater to those who want the same situations they experience in other games to be in their DOA experience. Once upon a time, Team Ninja tried to say they didn't want to make a competitive fighter. They later reversed face on this. The "greater FGC" as I've seen wants every fighting game to play very very similar, and don't want to adapt. Someone tries to put a breath of fresh air, and do something different, and gets outcasted for it. I'm pretty sure regardless of how it goes, there's going to be a competitive community for the game. It's simply whether or not there's these kinds of people there or not. Personally, I'd rather there not be, but I'm not opposed to expanding the community either. DOA4 wasn't competitive, and it shouldn't have been, the game was bad. The rest of the DOA series was better, but still not competitive. They've done some good things so far, and I think we need to stop trying to make them like everyone else. Sure, there are improvements that can be done, but they're no where near as game mechanic changing as what we've seen so far in this thread.

Also, DOA has guaranteed combos. Every time you launch an opponent you get a guaranteed combo. Altering the game so some of these guaranteed combos can be done without a launch isn't a huge change in the grand scheme of things, but it would do a lot to cater toward the greater FGC.

Again, who cares about the "Greater FGC?". DOA is the red-headed step child, it always has been. Either the "Greater FGC" will respect them, or they won't. The "Greater FGC" just wants things given to them instead of having to work for them. They want outstanding tools that work in mechanics that compliment them, while having to do very little work to use them.

But, in all reality, personally, I don't like the stun system in general, because it's far too easy to get a stun in DOA. Since it's too easy to get a stun in DOA, these guaranteed combos would probably land off far too many first attacks. I'd like this to be reworked in some way, then maybe some of these guaranteed combos would be a good idea.

The stages are a big draw and should not be excluded from the conversation. Counter holds are also okay, but only when done outside of a combo. Once I stun you, why should you be able to escape that stun 65% of the time? Not only can you escape, but you can inflict damage to me in the process. That doesn't even make sense from a competitive standpoint.

String delays are also okay, just not every single string. I also really like free canceling, just not in its current application.

Because, they're not combos. They're Mix-Ups. While it says combo, it's not really a combo, and that's how you're supposed to think about it. However, I think you're right about the damage bit. So here's my suggestion. If you keep stuns in the game as widespread and common as they are, steal the VF5FS Aoi stance mechanic for holds. As in, make their holds evade or push away the move, and give the defender +4 or so of advantage, so they don't do damage, just have advantage. My only concern there would be how long the games would take.

Free canceling should be similar to VF's Guard Canceling, IMO. I mean, it should be...usable, but not overpowered. I'd have to see a little frame math to know what value would be acceptable there. Also, string delays...should only be on strings that have it as their main property. In DOA 4 they marked these with an upside down ^ sign on the inputs.

 

[Raansu]

The "Greater FGC", personally, is insignificant. Even being a part of different FGs (Soul Calibur 5), the game that we play, DOA, shouldn't be made to cater to those who want the same situations they experience in other games to be in their DOA experience. Once upon a time, Team Ninja tried to say they didn't want to make a competitive fighter. They later reversed face on this. The "greater FGC" as I've seen wants every fighting game to play very very similar, and don't want to adapt. Someone tries to put a breath of fresh air, and do something different, and gets outcasted for it. I'm pretty sure regardless of how it goes, there's going to be a competitive community for the game. It's simply whether or not there's these kinds of people there or not. Personally, I'd rather there not be, but I'm not opposed to expanding the community either. DOA4 wasn't competitive, and it shouldn't have been, the game was bad. The rest of the DOA series was better, but still not competitive. They've done some good things so far, and I think we need to stop trying to make them like everyone else. Sure, there are improvements that can be done, but they're no where near as game mechanic changing as what we've seen so far in this thread.



Again, who cares about the "Greater FGC?". DOA is the red-headed step child, it always has been. Either the "Greater FGC" will respect them, or they won't. The "Greater FGC" just wants things given to them instead of having to work for them. They want outstanding tools that work in mechanics that compliment them, while having to do very little work to use them.

But, in all reality, personally, I don't like the stun system in general, because it's far too easy to get a stun in DOA. Since it's too easy to get a stun in DOA, these guaranteed combos would probably land off far too many first attacks. I'd like this to be reworked in some way, then maybe some of these guaranteed combos would be a good idea.



Because, they're not combos. They're Mix-Ups. While it says combo, it's not really a combo, and that's how you're supposed to think about it. However, I think you're right about the damage bit. So here's my suggestion. If you keep stuns in the game as widespread and common as they are, steal the VF5FS Aoi stance mechanic for holds. As in, make their holds evade or push away the move, and give the defender +4 or so of advantage, so they don't do damage, just have advantage. My only concern there would be how long the games would take.

Free canceling should be similar to VF's Guard Canceling, IMO. I mean, it should be...usable, but not overpowered. I'd have to see a little frame math to know what value would be acceptable there. Also, string delays...should only be on strings that have it as their main property. In DOA 4 they marked these with an upside down ^ sign on the inputs.

Do you not notice that you contradict yourself after every sentence? " Don't change it, players need to adapt, but doa4 sucked." That kind of sums up most of your rant.

Anyways, the community doesn't just want the attention of the FGC. We ourselves want a competitive doa for once. The closet we ever got was with doa 3.1 but no one wanted to mod their xbox to play it and it didn't have online play so people just ignored it. Whether you like it or not, we need the FGC to help promote DoA and get it into the bigger tournaments. This will help the community grow, and the only way to do that is to fix the game and make it more competitive. In the end the casuals wont know the difference anyways, so TN may as well give us what we want so we can have a solid DoA game for once.

 

[d3v]

And at this point it's confirmed that AKNova7 knows two things about fighting games, "jack" and "shit."

The problem with what he wants is that it's, from a purely competitive perspective, fundamentally unsound. Why? Because it punishes the player for being correct.

 

[Rikuto]

And at this point it's confirmed that AKNova7 knows two things about fighting games, "jack" and "shit."

The problem with what he wants is that it's, from a purely competitive perspective, fundamentally unsound. Why? Because it punishes the player for being correct.

Egh.... I was trying to be nice, but.... yea... :/

 

[d3v]

I apologize if that comes across as too harsh. But it feels like he wants to undo all the good that has been done already. I mean, I've already seen some guys who don't traditionally play DOA actually looking forward to the game, thanks to those changes. I mean, even with the stuff that needs to be worked on, the E3 build still looks like a step in the right direction.

 

[PhoenixVFIRE]

So here's my suggestion. If you keep stuns in the game as widespread and common as they are, steal the VF5FS Aoi stance mechanic for holds. As in, make their holds evade or push away the move, and give the defender +4 or so of advantage, so they don't do damage, just have advantage. My only concern there would be how long the games would take.

Something similar to this has already been discussed. The last thing I want is to constantly be pushed away or evaded. Think about it:

You counter, push, attack, get countered, get pushed, get attacked, counter. Yay for never ending reversals with throws. At least the counters that do damage look cool and do different things lol...

DOA5 from a competitive standpoint point could look really cool and deadly in the right hands, with the right skills.(Especially when you consider this individuality thing going on, everyone will be deadly for different reasons and look different. It's gonna be hot.)

 

[d3v]

Something similar to this has already been discussed. The last thing I want is to constantly be pushed away or evaded. Think about it:

You counter, push, attack, get countered, get pushed, get attacked, counter. Yay for never ending reversals with throws. At least the counters that do damage look cool and do different things lol...

That sounds really derpy, like a nightmare version of what rest of the FGC thinks that DOA plays like.

 

[AKNova7]

And at this point it's confirmed that AKNova7 knows two things about fighting games, "jack" and "shit."

The problem with what he wants is that it's, from a purely competitive perspective, fundamentally unsound. Why? Because it punishes the player for being correct.

Pretend the stun concept wasn't in the game, pretend the launchers launch on NH, and pretend that it doesn't say "Combo." in the corner of your screen. Now how are you being punished for being correct again? Face the facts. The only reason people think that you shouldn't be able to counter out of stuns is because it says "Stun/Combo" right under your health bar. As I said, stuns are for Mix-Ups without the opponent being able to guard, not guaranteed combos. You can just ignore everything I say and insult me instead, but that's what DOA was always about. Even before countering out of combos with counters they had slow escape. Seeing stun makes people think something should be guaranteed afterwards, and that isn't always the case.

I apologize if that comes across as too harsh. But it feels like he wants to undo all the good that has been done already. I mean, I've already seen some guys who don't traditionally play DOA actually looking forward to the game, thanks to those changes. I mean, even with the stuff that needs to be worked on, the E3 build still looks like a step in the right direction.

Well, you're kind of unreasonable. You don't want to play what DOA is, you like the guaranteed stuff, yet, you don't want everyone to be able to use it because you simply want Meta-Balance. God tier characters are not a good thing. If guarantees are what you want, than there needs to be a way for more than just two characters to take advantage of this system.

Do you not notice that you contradict yourself after every sentence? " Don't change it, players need to adapt, but doa4 sucked." That kind of sums up most of your rant.

Anyways, the community doesn't just want the attention of the FGC. We ourselves want a competitive doa for once. The closet we ever got was with doa 3.1 but no one wanted to mod their xbox to play it and it didn't have online play so people just ignored it. Whether you like it or not, we need the FGC to help promote DoA and get it into the bigger tournaments. This will help the community grow, and the only way to do that is to fix the game and make it more competitive. In the end the casuals wont know the difference anyways, so TN may as well give us what we want so we can have a solid DoA game for once.

DOA4 sucked because of things besides the stun system. It had to do with the counter damage, and the lack of true sidestepping. It was incredibly non-technical. That was the majority of my problems with it.

For DOA 3.1, I have a modded xbox with FTP and a copy of DOA3 if maybe playing that version instead of 3 would help with understanding what you guys are shooting for. Because, right now, I see most of the things you guys are saying, and I want them to have nothing to do with DOA.

Egh.... I was trying to be nice, but.... yea... :/

Say what you want, this is a FGC message board, and to be in these, you need thick skin, regardless of your opinions.

That sounds really derpy, like a nightmare version of what rest of the FGC thinks that DOA plays like.

Yeah, you're right. That's probably not the best way to go about it. Reminds me of Re-GI's in SC4.

 

[d3v]

Pretend the stun concept wasn't in the game, pretend the launchers launch on NH, and pretend that it doesn't say "Combo." in the corner of your screen. Now how are you being punished for being correct again? Face the facts. The only reason people think that you shouldn't be able to counter out of stuns is because it says "Stun/Combo" right under your health bar. As I said, stuns are for Mix-Ups without the opponent being able to guard, not guaranteed combos. You can just ignore everything I say and insult me instead, but that's what DOA was always about. Even before countering out of combos with counters they had slow escape. Seeing stun makes people think something should be guaranteed afterwards, and that isn't always the case.

LAWL!

I'm being punished for being correct because I had the better neutral game, I was able to get in on their defense. As such, I should not be punished, or rather my opponent should not be rewarded by being given the option to stop my offense, at least not without a cost (meter, stock, etc.).

To use a chess analogy, if I put my queen in B6 while your king was in A8, then I should be rewarded by you having to resign and not be punished by the game giving you the option to move your king two spaces to C8 if you win at rock paper scissors.

By the way, there weren't labels and counters in SF2, Champion Ed and Hyper Fighting, but we still called them combos anyway. We simply discovered that you could hit people again before they could recover from the initial hit and developed the metagame from there. The developers simply took what we discovered and made it part of the game.

Also, mixups happen before you get in and get a hit confirm, not after. The only exception is when you intentionally drop a combo for a reset.

 

[Raansu]

DOA4 sucked because of things besides the stun system. It had to do with the counter damage, and the lack of true sidestepping. It was incredibly non-technical. That was the majority of my problems with it.

DoA4 sucked because you were always at a disadvantage even when you had the "advantage." The entire game was built around 50/50's and you had no control over the match. It's an absolute nightmare. Guard breaks were completely useless, wall game was completely useless, wake up kicks were like projectiles, everything freaking stunned you, and you could get out of every situation with ease. DoA4 was a joke and a complete mockery to DoA3.1. DoA5 is taking the proper strides and it needs to continue to take those strides and I could care less if it upsets the scrubs like you and emperor_cow. You guys had your fun with DoA4, it's our turn to have a doa3.1 again but 10x better.

 

[AKNova7]

LAWL!

I'm being punished for being correct because I had the better neutral game, I was able to get in on their defense. As such, I should not be punished, or rather my opponent should not be rewarded by being given the option to stop my offense.

To use a chess analogy, if I put my queen in B6 while your king was in A8, then I should be rewarded by you having to resign and not be punished by the game giving you the option to move your king two spaces to C8 if you win at rock paper scissors just because every move your king makes from A8 puts it in the path of my queen (i.e. is an illegal move).

By the way, there weren't labels and counters in SF2, Champion Ed and Hyper Fighting, but we still called them combos anyway. We simply discovered that you could hit people again before they could recover from the initial hit and developed the metagame from there. The developers simply took what we discovered and made it part of the game.

Also, mixups happen before you get in and get a hit confirm, not after. The only exception is when you intentionally drop a combo for a reset.

First of all, you play way too many 2D fighters, and compare them just a little too directly. The fundamentals are the same, yes, but typically 3D fighters are slightly different in terms of fundamental execution.

Second of all, DOA mechanics in general don't reward just for having the better neutral game in many occurrences. To do this, everything would have to stun or counters would have to only be able to counter the first hit of a string. In DOA you don't only have to play good neutral game, you have to continuously play mindgames with your opponent even when you're on offense. I'm assuming that's unacceptable, though. No?

I understand why you disagree, though. Even Soul Calibur follows your mix-ups post hit confirm rule. DOA does not, and personally, I don't think it should. To me, one of the most appealing things about the game was that offense was more difficult. To the extend that DOA4 was in terms of what happens when you get held in combos was ridiculous, but I always liked that defense, outside of backdashing, (and sidestepping for DOA4) was always pretty strong.

DoA4 sucked because you were always at a disadvantage even when you had the "advantage." The entire game was built around 50/50's and you had no control over the match. It's an absolute nightmare. Guard breaks were completely useless, wall game was completely useless, wake up kicks were like projectiles, everything freaking stunned you, and you could get out of every situation with ease. DoA4 was a joke and a complete mockery to DoA3.1. DoA5 is taking the proper strides and it needs to continue to take those strides and I could care less if it upsets the scrubs like you and emperor_cow. You guys had your fun with DoA4, it's our turn to have a doa3.1 again but 10x better.

Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. You honestly think I like DOA4? Seriously? 3 is far and beyond my favorite. And scrubs? What is wrong with the fact that I like strong defense in fighting games? I hated DOA4, in every shape of the word, but certain things I disliked more than others. If they completely rework the system to advocate what you guys say, that's fine. But if they try and play this DOA4 hybrid thing because a whole bunch of idiot fans are trying to convince them to use DOA4 as a base instead of DOA3, then I feel that them trying to just use a modified version of a broken system isn't going to work well in the long run.

 

[Raansu]

Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. You honestly think I like DOA4? Seriously? 3 is far and beyond my favorite. And scrubs? What is wrong with the fact that I like strong defense in fighting games? I hated DOA4, in every shape of the word, but certain things I disliked more than others. If they completely rework the system to advocate what you guys say, that's fine. But if they try and play this DOA4 hybrid thing because a whole bunch of idiot fans are trying to convince them to use DOA4 as a base instead of DOA3, then I feel that them trying to just use a modified version of a broken system isn't going to work well in the long run.

You say you dislike DoA4 yet all your posts point to you preferring how it played. It's pretty blatant that you like DoA4 regardless of how much you say you don't, which is why I said in a previous post that you constantly contradict yourself.

 

[Rikuto]

Why are we still arguing about a problem that has already been given an official (and working) solution?

 

[Raansu]

Why are we still arguing about a problem that has already been given an official (and working) solution?

Not really arguing, simply correcting him. Of course we could let emp and ANK run wild and have the off chance of getting another XO5 > DoA4.1 fiasco.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. You honestly think I like DOA4? Seriously? 3 is far and beyond my favorite.

AKNova7, thats their new thing now. If you dont agree with their philosophies then you like DOA4 or imply it.
They threw that card on me a few times already. Its just a way of twisting arguments when they have no clue what to say.

Its kinda like the Bush quote: "If you're not with us, you're against us!". Bush fucked up the whole world with his ideology. I fear the same could happen to the world of DOA5 with this kind of crap being thrown around.

Honestly, ever since I've decided to be part of this community I've been in constant amazement at how people hate each other and how people have so much conflict amongst each other and how they miserably fail to have a logical argument without throwing a low blow at someone. What makes it more pathetic is that its coming from people who are considered to be old school players who are supposed to be alot more mature than the rest of the new generation FGC.

Then theres the sheep that blindly follow as if they have something to do with the discussion. Don't let those get to you. They're just background noise.

There are many ways to fix a game, But we dont all necessarily agree on the same ways. Some ideas can even destroy a game. The trick is to have a healthy discussion and find a middle ground where everyone's happy.

 

[AKNova7]

You say you dislike DoA4 yet all your posts point to you preferring how it played. It's pretty blatant that you like DoA4 regardless of how much you say you don't, which is why I said in a previous post that you constantly contradict yourself.

Alright. Hold on, let's fix this, get on the same page here.

DoA4 sucked because you were always at a disadvantage even when you had the "advantage." The entire game was built around 50/50's and you had no control over the match. It's an absolute nightmare. Guard breaks were completely useless, wall game was completely useless, wake up kicks were like projectiles, everything freaking stunned you, and you could get out of every situation with ease. DoA4 was a joke and a complete mockery to DoA3.1. DoA5 is taking the proper strides and it needs to continue to take those strides and I could care less if it upsets the scrubs like you and emperor_cow. You guys had your fun with DoA4, it's our turn to have a doa3.1 again but 10x better.

Breaking it down.

1. DoA4 sucked because you were always at a disadvantage even when you had the "advantage.".

Opinion: Stupid. However, personally, I believe the system needs to be reworked altogether. I don't believe proper fighting game mechanics and DOA stuns can co-exist very well, without the game turning into a hit-confirm fest. Which, personally, I'm open to, but I'd have to see it first. In terms of true disadvantage, I don't think being negative on hits is a good thing, and I don't think free canceling should be as powerful as it is, it should be more distinct when you have the advantage, and be able to use it to create offense.

2. The entire game was built around 50/50's and you had no control over the match. It's an absolute nightmare.

Opinion: While DOA is a Mix-Up based game, the game shouldn't be based around 50/50's. Less guess work should be involved with the game, because, personally, I prefer methodical solutions to absolute guessing, however I do accept DOA being a lot of guess work compared to most fighters. I know what I'm getting in to.

3. Guard breaks were completely useless, wall game was completely useless, wake up kicks were like projectiles, everything freaking stunned you, and you could get out of every situation with ease.

Going in order, guardbreaks shouldn't be useless, wall game explained later, wake up kicks were idiotic, stunning on everything is idiotic, that's why I suggested reworking the system in terms of how stuns work. Do you agree with reducing the number of things that should stun you? If THAT happened, I'd definitely advocate guaranteed moves. But with how many things stunned in DOA is what makes me wskeptical in the first place.

4. DoA4 was a joke and a complete mockery to DoA3.1.

It was a completely mockery even to 3. If someone can confirm to me that 3.1 is still available somewhere, as I said, I already have the mods on my original Xbox, and I'll probably agree with you. I've heard nothing but good things about DOA 3.1, but haven't got to try it because I didn't mod my original Xbox until around 2007, and didn't know there were mod conversions to 3.1.

This is me clarifying my opinions, since it seems you guys don't really understand where I'm coming from. Personally, I tried DOA4 and neglected to buy that game all the way until 2010ish, and that was only to have it because I support Team Ninja. I played 3 from 2001 all the way to then, even though I had a 360. I trained and experimented enough and played the game enough to know what you're talking about, but mostly stayed away because it felt like ass to me.

Not really arguing, simply correcting him. Of course we could let emp and ANK run wild and have the off chance of getting another XO5 > DoA4.1 fiasco.

You guys really need to calm down. I would never have that game like DOA4. If anything for the fact that I sidestep a linear move after blocking and instead of being able to attack, I just get tracked. Biggest pet peeve in the history of the universe. Same as if you get punished for good offense, in DOA4 you get punished for certain forms of proactive defense (sidestepping linear moves.) I want Free Step Dodge back, and that's why I'll never like DOA4.

 

[Rikuto]

There's a solution in the works (CB and unholdable stuns) that I, with my many years of competitive experience in DOA, know is legit. I've seen it first hand and know how beautiful it is. So I don't really feel the need to discuss any alternative solutions.

Why do you?

 

[Raansu]

There's a solution in the works (CB and unholdable stuns) that I, with my many years of competitive experience in DOA, know is legit. I've seen it first hand and know how beautiful it is. So I don't really feel the need to discuss any alternative solutions.

Why do you?

Indeed, and I hope they go even further with it. Personally I'd like to see the DoA++ stun system where there are so few stuns, and in place of the critical stuns would be the critical burst.

 

[AKNova7]

There's a solution in the works (CB and unholdable stuns) that I, with my many years of competitive experience in DOA, know is legit. I've seen it first hand and know how beautiful it is. So I don't really feel the need to discuss any alternative solutions.

Why do you?

It's not the unholdable stuns. Remember, someone in this thread alluded to that it should only be 30ish percent of stuns holdable in the entire game. Now, because I haven't had extensive time touching Dead or Alive 5, the biggest question I'd ask is how many stuns are in the game? Because, see, my fear is how this 30% is distributed, as it could rule certain characters out of competition completely. I understand meta-balance, but, even though I'd believe I myself could adapt to the meta, I'd love for DOA to have a large fighting community, even if it's not part of the rest of the FGC community. I believe that sometimes, certain people play best playing certain play-styes, as their personal fighting game skills can match up with that style. Which means that people that couldn't normally be competitive fighters, could be somewhat more than casuals with those characters. If a character was completely ruled out of contention because the distribution of this 30% is skewed, then someone who could possibly be hooked for life on the game could be destroyed by the meta before they have a chance to learn what it means to take fighting games seriously.

In short, just make sure the stun type distribution is viable to the balance of the game, and the problems disappear because then it just creates metagame moves, not just metagame characters.

Indeed, and I hope they go even further with it. Personally I'd like to see the DoA++ stun system where there are so few stuns, and in place of the critical stuns would be the critical burst.

Could you explain this a little further, how ++ stun system worked? Just wondering. Never got to go back and play this version.

 

[Rikuto]

So... you're arguing against a possible bad side effect, which is reliant on both a theoretical solution that is not, and has not ever been a part of this games design, as well as theoretical neglect on the part of the developers when it comes to character balance.

... No. You don't get to do that and call it a debate, dear sir. That is an unknown unknown.


And basically, DOA++ had very few stuns. Only a handful of these stuns could be held, and there was pretty much no stun threshold so it was hit once and launch. inside of holdable stuns you had a 6-point hold system.

Yep, you heard me. DOA++ had those things we call "balls". Somewhere along the way, DOA slowly forgot where they were.