DOA5 E3 Build: The Good, Bad and Ugly

[DrDogg]

DOA4 was not accepted as a competitive fighter. The DOA5 Alpha Demo was a step in the right direction, but not far enough of a step to give the series a proper place in the greater FGC. The E3 build of DOA5 is a larger step in the right direction, but there's still a long way to go before the game will be accepted by the competitive scene.

This is MY breakdown of the current state of the game and where it needs to go from here to reach the minimum level of competitiveness needed (I view this as the MK9 level). Right now, I'd say it's about 75% of the way to that minimum level, and could easily reach and surpass this milestone by the time the game releases in September.

The Good

Critical Burst (CB)
- This is by far the best addition to the series to date. Some characters can CB in as few as two hits, while others struggle with bursting at four hits. This is one of the main things that a tier list for the E3 version would be based on. If a character can quickly and easily reach CB, they have a much better chance of being higher on the tier list.
- Why is CB so amazing? Because it prevents the opponent from countering and slow escaping. It makes DOA feel like a real fighting game with guaranteed situations. It gives the offensive player something to aim for instead of just randomly mixing up their attacks in hopes the opponent won't counter. It gives the defensive player something to fear, and a reason to actually play defense instead of simply relying on the counterhold system like a crutch.

Sit Down Stuns
- Similar to CB, the two sit down stuns do not allow an opponent to use a counterhold. Unfortunately, in the most recent E3 build, the opponent can slow escape (this was changed from my original build). I would prefer the opponent not be able to slow escape or counter because it essentially creates a variant of the CB stun.
- Why are the new sit down stuns so amazing? Because they prevent the opponent from countering, similar to a CB. If the opponent can still slow escape in the final version, I'm okay with that, but ideally it would not allow slow escaping or counterholds.

Guard Breaks
- Many characters have guard breaks of some sort. Unlike previous DOA games, you cannot counter during the frame advantage granted by a guard break. This gives characters like Christie, a guaranteed stun after a blocked guard break attack.

Normal Hit Launchers/Stuns
- Many characters have the ability to launch or stun without the need for a counter-hit. This allows them to potentially avoid some or all of the classic (DOA4) stun game.

Character-Specific Sidesteps
- The universal sidestep can be found in "The Ugly" section, but the character-specific sidesteps are great. Hayate's 2P+K, Christie's 2P+K, etc. are far more evasive and useful than the universal sidestep.

Sarah and Bayman
- These two characters are how every character in DOA5 should play. Now I don't mean specific attacks and combos, I mean that they have the tools to work around the classic stun system and make the game significantly more appealing to the greater FGC. Both of these characters would probably be considered top tier, but neither of them are overpowered or in need of a nerf. In fact, I would be extremely disappointed if either character received a nerf.
- Bayman has plenty of effective and useful ways to land sit down stuns and a great CB. This allows him to effectively ignore the classic stun system
- Sarah actually has frame advantage. She has frame trap after frame trap and forces the opponent to think about what they're doing before they do it. You can't rely on mindless counterholds when fighting against Sarah.

Screen Shake and Danger Zones
- The amount of screen shake initiated from the danger zones has been drastically reduced. This is fantastic!

Options! Options! Options!
- DOA5 gives you more customizable options than pretty much any other fighting game to date. You can change almost everything from the camera movement and hit stun effects, to displaying frame data and adjusting the hold input buffering and random settings (from the looks of things).

DOA4 is Still There
- Even with all of these changes, the game can still be played like DOA4. This is a good sign for the casuals because they can ignore all of the changes/improvements and still play DOA4 as if nothing has changed. Meanwhile, the competitive players can focus on the new system mechanics.

The Bad

Frame Data
- While it's ridiculously awesome to see frame data in almost every mode of the game, it's not always accurate. There are many occasions when the game lists a situation at +11, but you can't connect a 10-frame attack. It's my understanding that this has to do with how DOA system mechanics work, but it needs to be displayed clearly for competitive players. If a VF player sees that Akira is at +11, he'll expect to be able to connect his 10-frame jab. It's a minor gripe, but one that would go a long way toward bringing in more people from the greater FGC.

Everything is Unsafe
- At this point, 90% of the attacks in DOA5 are unsafe if blocked. Most of the safe attacks are either slow and easily countered (charge attacks) or a high attack at the end of a combo. This encourages players to free cancel mid-combo and/or play the guessing game of mixing up the last attack in a combo (do I go for the safe high that can be ducked, or the unsafe mid?).
- SOLUTION: Give me some safe attacks that don't launch or stun on normal hit so I can actually finish a combo without fear of getting punished.

Free Canceling and String Delays
- Next to counterholds, these are probably two of the worst features in the DOA series. Both are good concepts that could potentially work well, but only when used sparingly. The fact that you can use these system mechanics on almost every single combo/attack in the game is not a good thing. It blurs the ability to determine who has the advantage between the offensive and defensive player. You never know when it's safe to attack because the offensive player may not be done with their combo. It promotes more guessing, which is not a good thing.
- SOLUTION: I'm okay with Free Canceling, but unless the opponent is in the air, you should be at a big disadvantage. Enough of a disadvantage that the defensive player can recognize you free canceled and make use of their new found frame advantage. As it stands, you can Free Cancel and continue attacking with no real consequences.
- SOLUTION: String delays are also okay, but not if every attack in a string can be delayed. This should be limited to only a few attacks in a handful of strings, and the delayed attacks should be unsafe if blocked. There should be some consequences for having the ability to delay an attack. If the delay doesn't work, you should be punished for it, even if it's only minor punishment.

The Ugly

Universal Sidestep
- The fact that the universal sidestep can now be executed using 22 or 88 causes a great deal of problems. In the past, you had nice, fluid movement by mixing in 22, 88, 66 and 44. With 22 and 88 now being the new sidestep (complete with recovery) it effectively removes that freedom of movement. You can still hold 2 or 8 to walk into the foreground or background, but it's not anywhere near as effective as the old 22 or 88.
- Many attacks in DOA5 use the 33 notation. In addition, a lot of players like to crouch dash using a 33 notation. It's very common to get a 22 sidestep instead of a crouch dash. This is very disheartening when you're going for a 33 attack and you get a sidestep attack instead.
- Having a canned attack after the universal sidestep limits your offensive options. It would be better to either remove the canned attack(s), or allow you to Free Cancel out of the attack and instead use whatever attack you want (if Free Cancel is adjusted, then simply removing the canned attack would be preferred).

The Tier List
- Right now the tier list is defined by how easy it is to avoid the classic stun system. Unfortunately, because some characters have an easier time doing this than others, it's clear that this is where the real problem lies.
- For example, Christie is one of the fastest and most evasive characters in the game. She even has normal hit launchers that lead to full combos and a fast guard break that gives her a guaranteed stun. However, despite all of this, she has a difficult time connecting a Critical Burst or placing the opponent in a sit down stun. This makes her seem low tier and the worst character in the E3 build next to Zack (who has a hard time with CB and sit down stuns as well).
- SOLUTION: It's clear that avoiding the classic stun system is the way to go.

Bayman's Hair
- Please give this man his beret... in at least one outfit.

 

[synce]

I agree with most of the points except maybe the sidestep and dash complaints. The latter seems more like a problem with the 360's shitty dpad lol As for the canned attacks I like them. As you mentioned less guessing is better and I'd rather guess between 2 attacks instead of many more

And it would definitely be exciting if everyone was buffed to meet Bayman and Sarah's level, but so late in development it might be easier to nerf 2 characters instead of buffing 20. Let's hope for the best..

 

[DrDogg]

I agree with most of the points except maybe the sidestep and dash complaints. The latter seems more like a problem with the 360's shitty dpad lol As for the canned attacks I like them. As you mentioned less guessing is better and I'd rather guess between 2 attacks instead of many more

It wasn't just the dpad. Even on a stick, if you're pressing 33, you're going to get a few 22 inputs in there.

Also, you shouldn't be using the sidestep attacks unless they're going to connect (meaning you evaded an attack). So there's no guessing involved in terms of which attack the opponent is going to use. Not to mention most of the SS attacks are unsafe anyway and not many are low. There isn't much of a guess.

And it would definitely be exciting if everyone was buffed to meet Bayman and Sarah's level, but so late in development it might be easier to nerf 2 characters instead of buffing 20. Let's hope for the best..

It wouldn't take much to buff the other characters. Several Critical Burst attacks changed from the build I played to the E3 build. A change like that could have a big impact on Christie and Zack. It's also not super time consuming to change the frame data on attacks and/or change the stun on an attack. I'd guess you could make all of the necessary character-specific changes in less than a day.

When I played Sarah and Bayman, I got really excited. And keep in mind, I don't play either of these characters. Seeing the options they had available to them made me giddy. It was like a breath of fresh air. Nerfing these characters would remove that feeling, which would be a terrible thing.

 

[Bogetsu]

Interesting summary about the good and the bad of the E3 build. Thanks for sharing.
BTW, I've always wondered how you can calculate hit frames. How's that?

 

[Doug Nguyen]

At least there many goods and less bads.

 

[Kronin]

Interesting thread, thanks for sharing with us your thoughts about the current state of the game.

I have just a couple (probably noob) of question:

Sit Down Stuns
- Similar to CB, the two sit down stuns do not allow an opponent to use a counterhold. Unfortunately, in the most recent E3 build, the opponent can slow escape (this was changed from my original build). I would prefer the opponent not be able to slow escape or counter because it essentially creates a variant of the CB stun.

When you say that the opponent can slow escape, you mean through the use of sidestep?

Guard Breaks
- Many characters have guard breaks of some sort. Unlike previous DOA games, you cannot counter during the frame advantage granted by a guard break. This gives characters like Christie, a guaranteed stun after a blocked guard break attack.

This frame advantage during a guard break is what Shimbori talked about in his messages on twitter? The impossibility to counter while you are stunned without both the feet completely on the floor?

 

[ScattereDreams]

I was just thinking DOA5. The attacks that are safe isn't much to work with and most are barely safe to the point where you can't fuzzy guard. Most attacks that give frame advantage on block are guard/breaks, or charge attacks >.<. Not everyone has a fast guard break like Hayabusa's 3f+k, or Kasumi's 66p (which I think is a high guard break now). I'm still with you on the string delays, but one last question....

Sarah won't be tournament banned will she xD 0.0

 

[TRI Mike]

I see where you're going and understand most of your points but I still disagree a lot on transforming DOA into a game to appeal to the "FGC". I believe that FGC is vastly populated by kids maining Wesker in UMvC3. VF and KOF are proof enough that "being a competitive game" is not the only thing needed for the game to be successful in tournaments.

 

[Matt Ponton]

When you say that the opponent can slow escape, you mean through the use of sidestep?

Other games use the term "struggling". When you mash input directions and buttons to escape 'dizzy' or 'stun' faster.

The community originally used the term 'slow escape' because it was a slower escape mechanism than that of the instant frame defensive holds.

Then in DOA3 we found that there is actually an invisible meter that automatically fills as you slow escape, and will automatically slow escape without you mashing. It's hard to explain in text.

Sarah won't be tournament banned will she xD 0.0

No tournament rule settings will be decided on until the game comes out and players have had time to play to its fullest. Bans are an ultimatum once its realized that it breaks the system. You can't unban something, is the general principle.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

I agree with alot of the stuff, but some of it I don't:


- Although there are some nice points there, shaking out of stun (Slow Escaping) has always been a normal thing in 3D fighters (Soul calibur had it before 5, and VF still has it). I don't think it should be taken away. As the alpha demo has shown, just like there are STUNS which do not allow holds, there are also others which do NOT allow SLOW ESCAPE.This current balance between the two is great.


- CRITICAL BURST is something new and I cannot say I agree very much with but I'm going to have to. However, one thing I still cannot accept is the ability to burst by repeating the same burst move twice, as this defies DOA logic in general. As you know, repeating the same move twice in DOA causes breaking of the threshold leading to KNOCKDOWN or RESET. Since BURST moves are still normal moves at the end of the day, they should not receive any different treatment to this already established logic. (In easy terms, breaking threshold should always be a PENALTY and not a REWARD).

- The current balance between the ability and inability to hold out of stun seems just about right. Completely removing hold out of stun would destroy the game. The way I see it now, I can compare it to VF in a sense that there are now attacks that guarantee follow up hits, and others that do not even though they both STUN. In VF, the ones with the really small stun actually recover MID STRING and even give the ability to block, parry, or even side step and go for a free throw or strike. How is this any different from what we currently have in DOA? There are not many stuns that guarantee follow-ups in VF and you really need to plan them out and set them up.

- I agree with the huge problem with the button lay out which was probably mainly used to accommodate TAG. I posted my suggestion for the fix in another board but I will repeat it here:
*H+P+K returns to being Power blow. In TAG, it turns into the TAG command until one teammate dies, then the Power blow functionality returns. This creates a more combo and launch focused tag mode (how it always should be) and gives the surviving teammate a new tool. This would be done the same way NORMAL THROWS (H+P) become TAG THROWS until the teammate dies.
*H+P+K and H+P+K would become sidestep again just like it was in the alpha build. when in TAG and the opponent is airborne for the last few frames of the juggle and while hes down on the ground, H+P+K would turn into the TAG pounce. the differentiation between the two would not be difficult and it would be the same logic as changing the animation of a GROUND THROW and an AIR THROW. (When Hayabusa does hcf H+P on a standing opponent you get normal throw animation and trigger izuna, but when you do it on a juggled opponent you get the Air grab animation and trigger the air grab).
*or H+P+K would still be offensive tags.
* Although not an issue that has affected me personally, but H+P+K and H+P+K taunts can be replaced with, H+P+K and H+P+K.

One point I would like to raise is that I am not sure how the VF character stance changes will be affected by this and by tag inputs in general. Has any of the guys that tested AKIRA and SARAH done a comparison of the two games in this aspect?

- Finally, Yes BAYMAN NEEDS HIS DAMN BERET BACK in at least one outfit. Similarly, Leifang needs her Leather shorts and top back!! Its a disadvantage to fight in a dress.

 

[grap3fruitman]

~snip~

Very nice points. I think the only part where we don't see eye-to-eye is the sidestep inputs. This seems like an issue with the loose input buffer system that's plagued DOA since DOA3 and not the input itself. I don't think I've ever hit an accidental step in VF5FS despite that only being to step into the foreground and that's because VF isn't so loose with the inputs. I'm not asking for VF level of a buffer but something more akin to DOA++ or DOA2 on the DC/PS2/Arcade. Those games felt so good on a stick.

I see where you're going and understand most of your points but I still disagree a lot on transforming DOA into a game to appeal to the "FGC".

The point isn't to turn DOA into a game that only the greater fighting game community would want. It's to make DOA a solid fighter, which in turn would likely appeal to a lot of people in the greater fighting game community. If we don't like our own game, as was the case with DOA4, why would anyone else?

VF and KOF are proof enough that "being a competitive game" is not the only thing needed for the game to be successful in tournaments.

DOA4 is proof that a bad game can't be successful either.

 

[Matt Ponton]

- CRITICAL BURST is something new and I cannot say I agree very much with but I'm going to have to. However, one thing I still cannot accept is the ability to burst by repeating the same burst move twice, as this defies DOA logic in general. As you know, repeating the same move twice in DOA causes breaking of the threshold leading to KNOCKDOWN or RESET. Since BURST moves are still normal moves at the end of the day, they should not receive any different treatment to this already established logic. (In easy terms, breaking threshold should always be a PENALTY and not a REWARD).

I'm just curious, as you've said this before, since I don't recall a time in the tournament where a critical burst was used twice in a critical state, could you provide me a video where you saw this?

 

[TRI Mike]

You're totally right grap3. But with all the effort TN is making and the proof we have that DOA5 is on the right track, I feel it unfair to still complain so much and still talk about getting the attention of the "FGC" when it's no secret that no matter what in the world the devs do, shitty crap like MvC3 will still be the most successful games in tournaments.

I just say that I don't agree with that specific statement from Bryan. Other than that I feel the same as him.

 

[Kronin]

Other games use the term "struggling". When you mash input directions and buttons to escape 'dizzy' or 'stun' faster.

The community originally used the term 'slow escape' because it was a slower escape mechanism than that of the instant frame defensive holds.

Then in DOA3 we found that there is actually an invisible meter that automatically fills as you slow escape, and will automatically slow escape without you mashing. It's hard to explain in text.

Thanks for the explanation Mr. Wah, I will search more information on the mechanism through video gameplay and tutorial.

- I agree with the huge problem with the button lay out which was probably mainly used to accommodate TAG. I posted my suggestion for the fix in another board but I will repeat it here:
*H+P+K returns to being Power blow. In TAG, it turns into the TAG command until one teammate dies, then the Power blow functionality returns. This creates a more combo and launch focused tag mode (how it always should be) and gives the surviving teammate a new tool. This would be done the same way NORMAL THROWS (H+P) become TAG THROWS until the teammate dies.
*H+P+K and H+P+K would become sidestep again just like it was in the alpha build. when in TAG and the opponent is airborne for the last few frames of the juggle and while hes down on the ground, H+P+K would turn into the TAG pounce. the differentiation between the two would not be difficult and it would be the same logic as changing the animation of a GROUND THROW and an AIR THROW. (When Hayabusa does hcf H+P on a standing opponent you get normal throw animation and trigger izuna, but when you do it on a juggled opponent you get the Air grab animation and trigger the air grab).
*or H+P+K would still be offensive tags.
* Although not an issue that has affected me personally, but H+P+K and H+P+K taunts can be replaced with, H+P+K and H+P+K.

Nice changes to the imputs, I really like your idea, overall for his effects on the way to play in tag forcing to have another different type of gameplay (how should be like you said). About this, when I played Doa4 online tag battle, I noticed that I was generally better in tag battle, indeed because I relied on the specific aspects of the gameplay (like the instant attack in the switch of partner) that many players didn't use, continuing to play as if it were a normal 1 vs 1.

 

[DrDogg]

I see where you're going and understand most of your points but I still disagree a lot on transforming DOA into a game to appeal to the "FGC". I believe that FGC is vastly populated by kids maining Wesker in UMvC3. VF and KOF are proof enough that "being a competitive game" is not the only thing needed for the game to be successful in tournaments.

I do not disagree with that, but if DOA5 is left how it is now, there's very little chance it will have a competitive life after this year. I've heard rumors that it will be featured at MLG and IPL, and if it's included in those two events there's a chance Evo will pick it up... but if no one shows up, it won't matter. And with the game as it is now, I doubt you'll see much expansion beyond the current bunch of tournament players (which isn't enough).

Sarah won't be tournament banned will she xD 0.0

If nothing were to be changed between now and the retail release, Sarah would not be banned. She's good... easily top tier, but she's not broken or impossible to beat. You just can't rely on weak defense and counterholds to win.

- Although there are some nice points there, shaking out of stun (Slow Escaping) has always been a normal thing in 3D fighters (Soul calibur had it before 5, and VF still has it). I don't think it should be taken away. As the alpha demo has shown, just like there are STUNS which do not allow holds, there are also others which do NOT allow SLOW ESCAPE.This current balance between the two is great.

I clearly stated that I'd be fine if you can still SE out of stuns, I just prefer that you can't in more cases than CB. Right now CB is the only stun you can't SE out of and that's just not enough.

- CRITICAL BURST is something new and I cannot say I agree very much with but I'm going to have to.

You've made it perfectly clear you don't agree with anything that most of us think would make DOA a better game. At this point, I really don't know why you continue to reply to these threads. You're just saying the same things over and over again. We make a point that would change DOA to appeal to the greater FGC, then you come in saying you don't agree with it and that you essentially want DOA4 all over again with minor adjustments.

However, one thing I still cannot accept is the ability to burst by repeating the same burst move twice, as this defies DOA logic in general. As you know, repeating the same move twice in DOA causes breaking of the threshold leading to KNOCKDOWN or RESET.

A CB occurs when the CB attack crosses the stun threshold. As you pointed out, using the same attack twice automatically crosses the stun threshold. Normally this would cause the opponent to fall, but in the case of CB it's a NEW SYSTEM MECHANIC which stops the fall and instead creates a stun the opponent can't counter out of. It's not defying DOA logic at all, it's simply adding to it.

- The current balance between the ability and inability to hold out of stun seems just about right.

How would you even know this? You have yet to play a version of the game in which CB is used and in which there are universal stuns that can't be countered out of.

As it stands, in a typical competitive match, you can still counter out of roughly 65% of the stuns. That number needs to drop to roughly 35-40%.

How is this any different from what we currently have in DOA? There are not many stuns that guarantee follow-ups in VF and you really need to plan them out and set them up.

In VF you have a large number of attacks that are safe or grant frame advantage. In addition, frame advantage is important because a vast majority of the cast doesn't have an instant counterhold technique.

- I agree with the huge problem with the button lay out which was probably mainly used to accommodate TAG. I posted my suggestion for the fix in another board but I will repeat it here:
*H+P+K returns to being Power blow.

No offense, but I could care less about tag and I have no desire to see the Power Blow change back to a universal command. I don't think the change was made just because of tag as that's pretty much always been secondary to the 1v1 game.

One point I would like to raise is that I am not sure how the VF character stance changes will be affected by this and by tag inputs in general. Has any of the guys that tested AKIRA and SARAH done a comparison of the two games in this aspect?

I don't understand the question.

I'm just curious, as you've said this before, since I don't recall a time in the tournament where a critical burst was used twice in a critical state, could you provide me a video where you saw this?

You can see it in some of my character videos. Although to be fair, I didn't test it in the updated build. I suppose I can do that some time soon. I'm not sure why there's a complaint about it though, you can counter both uses of the CB attack in the instance that it's used twice in a combo, unless the first time it's used is after a sit down stun... in which case you can counter the attack that led to the sit down stun. It's like he doesn't want anything guaranteed... which is one of the primary problems with DOA.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I don't understand the question.

He's saying that the VF characters have moves in VF5 that require pressing the G+P+K macro, so if they have the same move with the same input of then it could affect a tag-in or tag-attack. He was asking if they still had moves that were performed with the macro.

 

[DrDogg]

He's saying that the VF characters have moves in VF5 that require pressing the G+P+K macro, so if they have the same move with the same input of then it could affect a tag-in or tag-attack. He was asking if they still had moves that were performed with the macro.

The notations are changed in those instances... at least as far as Akira is concerned. I didn't have enough time with Sarah to confirm that.

 

[TRI Mike]

I do not disagree with that, but if DOA5 is left how it is now, there's very little chance it will have a competitive life after this year. I've heard rumors that it will be featured at MLG and IPL, and if it's included in those two events there's a chance Evo will pick it up... but if no one shows up, it won't matter. And with the game as it is now, I doubt you'll see much expansion beyond the current bunch of tournament players (which isn't enough).

I understand, but no need to panic. There's still a few months before the game comes out and that where people like Manny, Erik and you can stand up and do something about the things that need to be changed in order to make the game even better. In my personal case, I plan to take part in the competitive scene of the game, thing I couldn't do in the DOA3 and DOA4 days due to being too young to travel on my own for gaming purposes. And with how the game is shaping up I'll be more than glad to do it.

 

[PhoenixVFIRE]

I'm just curious, as you've said this before, since I don't recall a time in the tournament where a critical burst was used twice in a critical state, could you provide me a video where you saw this?

Christie and Tina Exhibition Trailers do it.

 

[DrDogg]

I understand, but no need to panic. There's still a few months before the game comes out and that where people like Manny, Erik and you can stand up and do something about the things that need to be changed in order to make the game even better.

That's where it gets tricky. If Team Ninja listens to Manny, we won't get the game Erik and I want. Manny doesn't like many of the ideas I've proposed, and even the compromise we came to wasn't easy to swallow for either side of the discussion.

But I'm not really panicking. I think Team Ninja is on the right track and I think if they continue on this track we'll have a really good game. I'm just pointing out what's good so far and what still needs to be changed. I don't want September to come around and have a game that I don't feel is competitive, knowing that I could've spoken up and possibly made a difference.

In the end, all I want is a DOA5 that has a solid competitive scene because people like the game, not because there's a ton of money on the line (CGS and WCG).