DOA5 E3 Build: The Good, Bad and Ugly

[AKNova7]

So... you're arguing against a possible bad side effect, which is reliant on both a theoretical solution that is not, and has not ever been a part of this games design, as well as theoretical neglect on the part of the developers when it comes to character balance.

... No. You don't get to do that and call it a debate, dear sir. That is an unknown unknown.

Fair enough. I suppose my first mistake was assuming that just because people wanted a meta-balance technique to be used on the game doesn't mean the developers would neglect character balance because of it.

I'm not unreasonable. If they're not done implementing their unholdable stuns, which I assume they're not, and it gets to the point where it's throughout the game and not just some characters, then, yes, I believe it will make the game better. Quite, actually.

I also misunderstood and thought that, by mentioning meta-balance at this game, that there was an opinion that just those characters should be granted those kind of stuns.

 

[Rikuto]

Well as of right now, the stun animations are being given to attacks that have always had them (minus the unholdable property obviously, thats quite new). I'd say at this point very little has been shown for any attempt at "balance", they just threw them into the E3 build with the system changes to see how things worked out and to get feedback from it.

That heavies happened to have them? Pure coincidence, really.

 

[Raansu]

I'm not unreasonable. If they're not done implementing their unholdable stuns, which I assume they're not, and it gets to the point where it's throughout the game and not just some characters, then, yes, I believe it will make the game better. Quite, actually.

You do realize the critical burst system is universal right? Obviously some characters will get more guard breaks and sit downs while others will get more advantage from parries while others will benefit from more frame advantage, but this is what creates tiers. It's what makes characters unique, it is a good thing, unless of course you want everyone to play exactly the same, but that would be pretty boring.

 

[AKNova7]

You do realize the critical burst system is universal right? Obviously some characters will get more guard breaks and sit downs while others will get more advantage from parries while others will benefit from more frame advantage, but this is what creates tiers. It's what makes characters unique, it is a good thing, unless of course you want everyone to play exactly the same, but that would be pretty boring.

Well obviously perfect balance is impossible, as I said, I just wouldn't want the skew to be completely lopsided. As far as I'm concerned, there's a quite a difference between low tier and not viable. And, yes, I do realize critical burst is universal and diversity is good, but I do believe somebody commented about the usefulness of certain characters critical bursts. That's all I was referring to.

Well as of right now, the stun animations are being given to attacks that have always had them (minus the unholdable property obviously, thats quite new). I'd say at this point very little has been shown for any attempt at "balance", they just threw them into the E3 build with the system changes to see how things worked out and to get feedback from it.

That heavies happened to have them? Pure coincidence, really.

Well, then I read to far into what the E3 build was. My mistake, I suppose. Just like all of you, I want the game to be the best it can be. We just all have different opinions and versions of exactly what that is. Though, I see your point of view, now.

And basically, DOA++ had very few stuns. Only a handful of these stuns could be held, and there was pretty much no stun threshold so it was hit once and launch. inside of holdable stuns you had a 6-point hold system.

Yep, you heard me. DOA++ had those things we call "balls". Somewhere along the way, DOA slowly forgot where they were.

...That sounds like the most intense fighting game I've ever heard of. And quite fun. Are there any mods for this version, or do I have to pull an arcade image for an emulator of some kind? Gotta admit, after watching videos on ++, the new DOA's really do brainwash you a bit. I think in terms of stuns and combos the way you mentioned for ++ is the way to do it. Definitely. As long as stuns don't saturate the game as they've been recently, it'll work out fine.

As long as every move doesn't stun, a DOA that finally has fighting game fundamentals would be a good thing.

 

[Matt Ponton]

AKNova7, thats their new thing now. If you dont agree with their philosophies then you like DOA4 or imply it.
...
There are many ways to fix a game, But we dont all necessarily agree on the same ways. Some ideas can even destroy a game. The trick is to have a healthy discussion and find a middle ground where everyone's happy.

Raansu is a very bitter, bitter man. He missed out on the competitive scene that grew during DOA4. He also was on the xbox.com forums helping out people learn the game. However, the xbox.com forum members didn't want to evolve their game and just stayed playing like scrubs complaining that Jann Lee has an unblockable attack or that ninjas were cheap, etc.

Just because one or two people disagree with you, doesn't mean the entire site does. Just like how Bush was an idiot doesn't mean America agreed with him, yet his actions make the rest of the world think that all Americans believed what he believed when it was quite the opposite on the majority.

You're going to run into people in the community who just don't gel with you. This is especially true as the community grows. Right now, the community is in a lull as it transitions to the new title so there's nothing to really discuss besides theory fighter and game engine preference. Once the final game comes out, it will be all discussion on the game system, character balance, and how to utilize it in the best way for tournament matches.

 

[AKNova7]

Oh, and one more thing. Yes, I believe they do need more safe moves in the game. I don't think it should be nearly all of them, but yeah, there are definitely certain characters that have hilariously high amounts of unsafe moves last I checked. Like Ayane, for instance. Unless they changed something drastically from DOA 4 and 5 that I didn't notice.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Raansu is a very bitter, bitter man. He missed out on the competitive scene that grew during DOA4. He also was on the xbox.com forums helping out people learn the game. However, the xbox.com forum members didn't want to evolve their game and just stayed playing like scrubs complaining that Jann Lee has an unblockable attack or that ninjas were cheap, etc.

Just because one or two people disagree with you, doesn't mean the entire site does. Just like how Bush was an idiot doesn't mean America agreed with him, yet his actions make the rest of the world think that all Americans believed what he believed when it was quite the opposite on the majority.

You're going to run into people in the community who just don't gel with you. This is especially true as the community grows. Right now, the community is in a lull as it transitions to the new title so there's nothing to really discuss besides theory fighter and game engine preference. Once the final game comes out, it will be all discussion on the game system, character balance, and how to utilize it in the best way for tournament matches.

Well I sure as hell can't wait till this storm is over.
I also wish this for game to stand out and be great and even start producing more educational material on its system and its mechanics with the help of everyone here. I've already started re-writing some of the old stuff from the alpha tutorial in order to get the tutorial vids out as soon as I possibly can.

Now, if I can only get my hands on an early copy, then I could fine tune the write up and release the vids at an acceptable time. >__>

Oh, and one more thing. Yes, I believe they do need more safe moves in the game. I don't think it should be nearly all of them, but yeah, there are definitely certain characters that have hilariously high amounts of unsafe moves last I checked. Like Ayane, for instance. Unless they changed something drastically from DOA 4 and 5 that I didn't notice.

The thing is, some of the ways the movesets were designed was to make moves that are seen as unsafe, safer.

In Ayane's case for example.
is unsafe... but you can make it safer by doing the follow up or .. Granted, the followup is unsafe as well, but this is where you screw with your opponent's head, and a good example of how delayable strings come into play. especially since ayane can backthrow and even crouching back throw.

Its a bizzarre way of playing when you compare it to other games I'll admit that much. But, it it also one of the things that make the game stand out. Its quite unique in that aspect. I don't see it as a bad thing when you want to re-educate a player with an unknown mechanic.

Not all games should play the same.
DOA should keep that uniqueness to it.

 

[AKNova7]

The thing is, some of the ways the movesets were designed was to make moves that are seen as unsafe, safer.

In Ayane's case for example.
is unsafe... but you can make it safer by doing the follow up or .. Granted, the followup is unsafe as well, but this is where you screw with your opponent's head, and a good example of how delayable strings come into play. especially since ayane can backthrow and even crouching back throw.

Its a bizzarre way of playing when you compare it to other games I'll admit that much. But, it it also one of the things that make the game stand out. Its quite unique in that aspect. I don't see it as a bad thing when you want to re-educate a player with an unknown mechanic.

Not all games should play the same.
DOA should keep that uniqueness to it.

I know how you're supposed to play Ayane, and how the mindgames are part of her playstyle. Regardless, she also did far too much damage compared to the rest of the cast, so I think she needs to get changed completely. But the game's moves should definitely be safer in general. As a movement character with good evades and such, part of her DOA5 tools can't be used to maximum potential as well if the character wasn't safer overall. I mean, that's alright, but it'd be nice to see a spacing/movement based character in DOA.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I am a bit confused about something, perhaps others are too. Maybe you could elaborate to clarify for me Bryan.

You say you don't want guessing, but at the same time you say you want more safe attacks on guard.

To me, these are counter-productive. For if you have a safe attack on guard, then it would lead to a 'forced guess' as you put it. Being -3 you now have the option after having your attack guarded to throw if the opponent continues to guard or holds, attack with a crush or an evasive attack should the opponent attempt to throw you thinking you are more disadvantaged than you really are, or sidestep to avoid a linear poke attack. If you were unsafe like '90%' of the strings you claim is bad, then you'd have guaranteed non-forced guessing available to you whether it be a throw or normal hit launching attack.

Perhaps I am just misunderstanding you, so if you could clarify that for me, I'd appreciate it.

 

[Jiikae]

Read this article and figured it was pretty relevant to this thread: http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2012/...y-fighting-game-community-not-their-approach/

 

[DrDogg]

She has guaranteed set ups and NH launchers, so the Christie player doesn't have to play DOA4. If she does get the defensive player in a DOA4 mindset, it would be easier to go into her CB, I would assume.

Her only guaranteed setup (so far) is the guard break into a limited number of attacks. You can't use a NH launcher because they're all too slow, which means all you can do is stun the opponent... which puts Christie right back into DOA4 mode.

Also, her NH launchers are not safe. Which means that more often than not, you'll only hit them during a stun. That once again brings us back to DOA4.

If someone like Chrisite could go into CB as easily as Bayman, then what exactly would be the point of using Bayman or Tina? Why should someone as fast and evasive as her get the same damaging options as they do?

That's like asking, "If someone like Chrisite could use a normal counterhold as easily as Bayman, then what exactly would be the point of using Bayman or Tina? Why should someone as fast and evasive as her get the same normal counterhold options as they do?"

It's a universal system mechanic that allows you to stop an opponent from using counterholds. It would take a great deal of effort to make Christie a solid character without a good CB.

The "Greater FGC", personally, is insignificant.

I've tried to make this as clear as possible, but you're still not understanding what I'm saying. Without the greater FGC, the game will not have a solid competitive scene. Period.

As it stands, a good number of competitive DOA players won't play DOA5 unless changes are made. Which means that if the proper changes are not made, not only will the greater FGC ignore DOA5, but so will a good number of DOA players.

In the end, it will not have a competitive scene. Now if you don't care about the competitive scene, then you shouldn't really be replying to these topics, because that's all we're talking about.

The "greater FGC" as I've seen wants every fighting game to play very very similar, and don't want to adapt.

I currently play SC5 and VF5 as my main competitive titles. Those two games are very different from each other, but are both solid fighters. I dislike playing AE and Marvel at a competitive level. They're both VERY different from SC and VF, but they're still solid fighters with large competitive communities.

That's 4 competitive fighters that all play very differently, but all have one fundamental similarity... they're solid fighters.

Your statement is not only incorrect, it's completely invalid. DOA5 can still be DOA with a few changes that would allow it to appeal to the competitive players.

Because, they're not combos. They're Mix-Ups.

So it's okay for the game to be 99% mix-ups until the opponent is launched? Enjoy that game... because very few competitive players (DOA or FGC) will be playing with you.

I am a bit confused about something, perhaps others are too. Maybe you could elaborate to clarify for me Bryan.

You say you don't want guessing, but at the same time you say you want more safe attacks on guard.

To me, these are counter-productive. For if you have a safe attack on guard, then it would lead to a 'forced guess' as you put it. Being -3 you now have the option after having your attack guarded to throw if the opponent continues to guard or holds, attack with a crush or an evasive attack should the opponent attempt to throw you thinking you are more disadvantaged than you really are, or sidestep to avoid a linear poke attack. If you were unsafe like '90%' of the strings you claim is bad, then you'd have guaranteed non-forced guessing available to you whether it be a throw or normal hit launching attack.

Perhaps I am just misunderstanding you, so if you could clarify that for me, I'd appreciate it.

If I use an attack that's -3 on block, I lose the offensive momentum. It's now the opponent's turn to attack. There's no forced guess about it. If I attempt to maintain my offense, then I can take a guess at what the opponent will do and react accordingly, but that's an option and a risk I take. I'm not forced to make the guess.

On the defensive side, if I block an attack that's -3, it's my turn to attack. How I attack is dependent on how I want my offense to begin and what my strategy is. Once again, I'm not forced to guess about anything.

Read this article and figured it was pretty relevant to this thread: http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2012/...y-fighting-game-community-not-their-approach/

You should've linked to the original article: http://kotaku.com/5918673/dead-or-a...f-their-game--was-in-fighting-tournaments-but

All they're saying is what any company would say. They have to cater to the casual crowd first, then work on fine-tuning the game for competitive players later. That's why we have Power Blows. They aren't there for the competitive players. They are only included for the casuals.

Also, we know for a fact that Team Ninja has a focus on the competitive scene. That's why they're listening to us. That's why we see things like Critical Burst and unholdable sit down stuns. That's why the counterhold window has been tweeked and the recovery altered.

 

[Matt Ponton]

If I use an attack that's -3 on block, I lose the offensive momentum. It's now the opponent's turn to attack. There's no forced guess about it. If I attempt to maintain my offense, then I can take a guess at what the opponent will do and react accordingly, but that's an option and a risk I take. I'm not forced to make the guess.

On the defensive side, if I block an attack that's -3, it's my turn to attack. How I attack is dependent on how I want my offense to begin and what my strategy is. Once again, I'm not forced to guess about anything.

Ah, I see, I see...

So you don't want guessing... and it's not guessing if you're at disadvantage or advantage... it's just time for you to perform your offense how you want to do it... and if the opponent wants to defend in the way they want to perform their defense whether it be a crush, sidestep, throw, or guard, it's not guessing... because you both are choosing a path that are hoping the opponent chooses a losing one...

So, not guessing? Sounds like guessing, or at least the guessing you are trying to explain is bad. Could you try extrapolating and re-wording?

I think I'm still confused...

 

[DrDogg]

The OPTION of guessing is in every fighting game. Reading the opponent, guessing when to step, etc. All of that is optional guessing. You make a choice to step in anticipation of a linear attack instead of simply blocking, but you can always block and avoid guessing. Guessing is a choice, not a mandate

When I play Feng in Tekken 6, if I hit you with df+1, I'm at enough advantage that you can't interrupt his b+4. Since b+4 tracks and hits mid, you can't duck or step to avoid it. Your only option is to block after df+1. There's no guessing involved because I have placed the opponent in a situation in which if they do anything other than block, they get hit by b+4.

Now, the opponent can guess I'm going to use this knowledge to go for a throw, or maybe a low or anything else. They can then attempt to make a read. However, it's their option to guess. At no point is the opponent forced to make that read.

In DOA you're forced to guess over and over again. You don't have a choice in the matter, it's how you have to play the game.

 

[Jefffcore]

So your saying that if they block you get nothing? Then wouldn't you want to throw or throw in a low? What would they be able to do if you went for a throw? (I don't play Tekken)

That still sounds like guessing. Nothing difficult, but guessing nonetheless.

 

[StickyStaines]

When your attack gets blocked but not liable for being punished (i guess i'll use -3 moves here), then you are not put into a static state where you are forced to choose between certain options and nothing else. It's more that the risk/reward is now placed heavily into the opponents favour and now it's your job to try and win back the advantage you lost.

I think guessing is a bad word, since the word guessing can be applied throughout the match. You could if you so wish to just expand 'guessing' to all your decisions about the match in a way. I think it's more to do with certain forced situations, with the hold system being a prime example. At least thats how im interpreting it.

 

[AKNova7]

I've tried to make this as clear as possible, but you're still not understanding what I'm saying. Without the greater FGC, the game will not have a solid competitive scene. Period.

As it stands, a good number of competitive DOA players won't play DOA5 unless changes are made. Which means that if the proper changes are not made, not only will the greater FGC ignore DOA5, but so will a good number of DOA players.

In the end, it will not have a competitive scene. Now if you don't care about the competitive scene, then you shouldn't really be replying to these topics, because that's all we're talking about.

Personally, I think DOA5 is a massive improvement over that garbage DOA4. (Which, after avoiding that game for a long time, I went back and played it again. The game is absolutely disgusting. Uggh.) But if people still aren't going to play DOA5, that's pretty sad. I care about a competitive scene, I just didn't care about the competitive scene referring to people playing other fighting games playing DOA as well, but, of course, that's how fighting games work these days. So many people play games like COD that most don't really have a competitive scene by themselves. Which is sad.

I currently play SC5 and VF5 as my main competitive titles. Those two games are very different from each other, but are both solid fighters. I dislike playing AE and Marvel at a competitive level. They're both VERY different from SC and VF, but they're still solid fighters with large competitive communities.

That's 4 competitive fighters that all play very differently, but all have one fundamental similarity... they're solid fighters.

Your statement is not only incorrect, it's completely invalid. DOA5 can still be DOA with a few changes that would allow it to appeal to the competitive players.

SCV is only solid in the Metagame, VF I'll give you that, AE bores me so I don't know enough about it, and Marvel, I don't really appreciate primary tag fighters these days, so I don't play it.

And while they're different, fundamentals are still similar, and in all the games, you can get wins with those same fundamentals.

Personally, I'm all for most changes to make it more like 3. As long as the game isn't only balanced in the metagame (Soul Calibur V...) then I'd be just fine with it. After playing that ass game DOA4 I went back and played DOA3, and remembered just how different they were. I really don't see how DOA4 was even alright for casuals. Game was just awful.

So it's okay for the game to be 99% mix-ups until the opponent is launched? Enjoy that game... because very few competitive players (DOA or FGC) will be playing with you.

No, you're right. I probably was trying to defend DOA because of the more recent awful things that happened to Soul Calibur, which, before 5, and after DOA3 was my favorite Gen 7 fighting game.

I went back and played 3 again and realized that while I thought 4 was ass, I underestimated just how much ass it was. Kill it. I never want to play that DOA4 again. If I have to go through a bad netcode so I can't duck on wakeup and get tracked and tech jumped by an Ayane back rolling grab one more time...

Free Step Dodge was non existent in that game. Awful.

 

[DrDogg]

So your saying that if they block you get nothing? Then wouldn't you want to throw or throw in a low? What would they be able to do if you went for a throw? (I don't play Tekken)

That still sounds like guessing. Nothing difficult, but guessing nonetheless.

It's not necessary to get damage out of every situation. That mentality alone is enough for me to classify someone as a "DOA player", or someone who lacks high level knowledge of fighting games other than DOA. I gain a significant amount of insight if the opponent simply blocks in that situation.

...and there's nothing about that situation that even resembles the forced guessing of DOA. If you can't understand that, I don't know how else to explain it to you.

Personally, I think DOA5 is a massive improvement over that garbage DOA4. (Which, after avoiding that game for a long time, I went back and played it again. The game is absolutely disgusting. Uggh.) But if people still aren't going to play DOA5, that's pretty sad. I care about a competitive scene, I just didn't care about the competitive scene referring to people playing other fighting games playing DOA as well, but, of course, that's how fighting games work these days.

DOA5 is a big improvement over DOA4, but it's not enough of an improvement (yet). If the E3 build was exactly what we were getting come September (in terms of game mechanics and balance), I would not play it competitively. If I wouldn't play it competitively, I have a hard time believing people who dislike DOA would play it (the greater FGC) unless there's big prize money to draw them in (which would only last so long). You may find that sad, but it's the hard truth.

 

[DrDogg]

Not sure why you erased this, but I saved it for you. ^_^

"That mentality"? Sooo it's a negative that I don't play Tekken? I'm sorry the only games I can sit down and not get bored playing are DOA and SF, because I have to think on my feet, something you obviously aren't good at.

I don't recall saying anything about it being a negative that you don't play Tekken. I simply stated that the mentality of getting either damage or nothing at all is that of someone who doesn't have much high level knowledge outside of DOA. You can take that as a negative if you like, but it was more of a classifying statement than anything else.

I want to ignore you, but that shit you keep letting leak from your mouth smells bad. You saying you don't want any guessing is enough for me to assume you're not good at any of those games you play

Please do ignore me. It would probably make things much easier for you.

I still find it humorous that you continue to say I don't want any guessing. I have repeatedly stated that I simply don't want any FORCED guessing. I like to be able to play as safe as possible and as technical as possible. I don't like taking risks, and I'm very successful with that play style. If I am forced to guess all the time, it's impossible for me to play that way.

 

[Jefffcore]

I deleted it because it didn't add anything to the discussion, it was just me vocalizing how tired I was of reading your condescending jibber jabber. Everything you write is condescending and usually has absolutely no effect on the betterment of the conversation.

Don't worry, I wont respond after this.

 

[AKNova7]

DOA5 is a big improvement over DOA4, but it's not enough of an improvement (yet). If the E3 build was exactly what we were getting come September (in terms of game mechanics and balance), I would not play it competitively. If I wouldn't play it competitively, I have a hard time believing people who dislike DOA would play it (the greater FGC) unless there's big prize money to draw them in (which would only last so long). You may find that sad, but it's the hard truth.

Yeah, the game would be quite unbalanced, and the game mechanics, while better still feel incomplete. It needs more balance and to pull away from DOA4 a bit more. I forgot how much less of a pain in the ass DOA3 was.

Furthermore, personally, I think there should be a control scheme where sidestep can be 2_8F+P+K. I said can be instead of only be because this would be really nice for pad players, but awful for stick players. 22_88 isn't bad, but definitely requires a little more anticipation than the first command.