Dead or Alive 5: Remaining Issues

[AKNova7]

Okay guys let's be serious and think about what you are asking. You are asking people that have a game scheduled to come out in about 2 months to throw it all out and start over to remake the neutral game? "Hey guys, I know you been working hard and the things you came up with were cool, but I need you to scratch that and just fix the neutral game. Frames on attacks, take away certain strings, add stand alone attacks (single strikes), etc. It's hella unrealistic to try and go back and do that right now. Maybe a patch at some point but in the end that's a COMPLETELY different game.

Focus on what can HELP the game right now so that they can build from that rather than go to an extreme

Remake is the wrong word, and asking them to add pokes wasn't adding new attacks. It was modifying the data to add some moves that are safe on block to encourage spacing of some kind.

Fixing of neutral game? That will half come with pokes coming into the game in general, and buffing the dashes slightly, especially the backdash.

he neutral game is an embarrassment to fighting games atm, but not as much so as DOA4. Sure, that's an improvement, but when you go from being nasty shit to being moderate shit, whichever way you look at it, it's still shit, you know? Haha.

 

[Chris Harris]

What Sega did for VF was "simplify" a lot of stuff so people could get into it easier. DoA wouldn't be simplifying it would be re-hauling which is completely different.

There is a neutral game in DoA but it revolves mainly around forcing a whiff and whiff punishing with a move that knocks down, stuns, or force a strike/throw mix up. In other 3D fighters you have either stand alone attacks that can be hit confirmed or give advantage on block to get in start your offense. There is also the case of having a super fast poke that gives advantage on block, has some type of follow up to respect, or grants combo on CH.

DoA pretty much skips past all of that and does something completely different. You play the spacing game till a character forces their way in and mixes you up. However I will mention that not all characters can do much once they are in other than force the old school punch throw shenanigans but people that play DoA got REALLY strong at going into damage control or just being able to read it well. I think it will still be a strong tactic but will die slowly since now risking getting stunned can lead to GG with sit down stuns and CB.

Let's hope they take the ability to struggle out of uncounterable stuns away so people can't get out of those situations.

 

[AKNova7]

Do you really think incre

What Sega did for VF was "simplify" a lot of stuff so people could get into it easier. DoA wouldn't be simplifying it would be re-hauling which is completely different.

There is a neutral game in DoA but it revolves mainly around forcing a whiff and whiff punishing with a move that knocks down, stuns, or force a strike/throw mix up. In other 3D fighters you have either stand alone attacks that can be hit confirmed or give advantage on block to get in start your offense. There is also the case of having a super fast poke that gives advantage on block, has some type of follow up to respect, or grants combo on CH.

DoA pretty much skips past all of that and does something completely different. You play the spacing game till a character forces their way in and mixes you up. However I will mention that not all characters can do much once they are in other than force the old school punch throw shenanigans but people that play DoA got REALLY strong at going into damage control or just being able to read it well. I think it will still be a strong tactic but will die slowly since now risking getting stunned can lead to GG with sit down stuns and CB.

Let's hope they take the ability to struggle out of uncounterable stuns away so people can't get out of those situations.

This really seems like a situation of damned if we do, damned if we don't. I see what's going on, trying to create our own little metagame in DOA5 so the people who play this play a different game instead of playing the awful DOA game. Um...I suppose this is enough on the subject. Add the common request for more guaranteed situations, and then we can move on, I suppose. Someone who played the E3 build, I'd like to know, just how effective were sidesteps in that build and the build surrounding it?

 

[Matt Ponton]

The sidesteps were effective. You couldn't really free step attacks as well as you could in DOA3.1, but the side step itself could step stuff at the beginning of the string and the stepped opponent would continue to go off axis. Free step moves were also very effective. That's stuff like Christie's snake stance or Bayman's tank wheel, not the p/k after a sidestep.

Personally, I still prefer the 22_88 over 2_8H+P+K command for the side step. The only major issue was that a 360 d-pad causes issues as it always does when hitting 33 and registering as 24224 or something. The other issue would be taunts where you wouldn't be able to do 222H+P+K to initiate a taunt.

That's my personal take on the matter.

 

[OSTCarmine]

could i use it as a response to a string delay if i anticipated my opponent would delay, or does the timing not allow that. also, if i do step a delayed string, will the continuation of the string track me?

 

[Allan Paris]

Yes, you can respond with a poke or you can try and SS. It all depends on what string is being delayed and how long the delay is. Seeing as eveything is delayable, press a button at your own risk. If the move that you are stepping does not have tracking attributes, it will not track you.

 

[AKNova7]

The sidesteps were effective. You couldn't really free step attacks as well as you could in DOA3.1, but the side step itself could step stuff at the beginning of the string and the stepped opponent would continue to go off axis. Free step moves were also very effective. That's stuff like Christie's snake stance or Bayman's tank wheel, not the p/k after a sidestep.

Personally, I still prefer the 22_88 over 2_8H+P+K command for the side step. The only major issue was that a 360 d-pad causes issues as it always does when hitting 33 and registering as 24224 or something. The other issue would be taunts where you wouldn't be able to do 222H+P+K to initiate a taunt.

That's my personal take on the matter.

My question is if, for instance, a string was punch punch launch, the launchers didn't track or anything, right? And personally, I like both sidestep commands. DOA is a game that by it's control tries to appeal to more than one preference as shown with two different ways to block. Personally, I play pad though, so I'll be using 2_8 more though.

It's nice that sidesteps work though, I think that's in from the Virtua people, imo. May I ask about the backdashes? I've heard they vary by character. Does the average backdash seem sufficient, or still horrible?

Furthermore, maybe it's just me, but characters that have poking moves where they turn BT, IMO, the actual pokes of these should be poke safe on block so you have options instead of just blocking, because it takes more time to Hold from BT.

 

[Matt Ponton]

The strange thing with back dashing is that if you press you'll do a backstepping animation that will be guarding, if you press you'll go into a guard animation but have very minimal dashing. Back Dash Canceling also varies by character speeds though.

 

[AKNova7]

The strange thing with back dashing is that if you press you'll do a backstepping animation that will be guarding, if you press you'll go into a guard animation but have very minimal dashing. Back Dash Canceling also varies by character speeds though.

That's actually really interesting. I suppose that's solid, then. The movement, I mean. Seems like the biggest need of the neutral game is the pokes, really. How's the walking speed as of E3? Forward and backward I mean?

 

[Matt Ponton]

Character dependent but overall far improved over doa4's molasses ground.

 

[OSTCarmine]

it may not seem that way, but if you review it looking at DOA4/D as reference (play if you have em, watch a vid if you dont) you can see the speeds are WAY up overall. everybody has been saying this, im just adding some context.
on the issue of SS out of string delay, this is exactly why i wanted some kind of audio/visual cue to indicate that the attacker has Free Cancelled. It would make reading string delay that much easier and make it a fairer gamble - block and get thrown = +-25% damage, or try and beat the delay out and maybe get combod for 40%+. Literally ALL they would need to do is have the character flash a certain color, or play a certain sound, or add a notification to the HUD like the add for CH/HCH. is my idea really THAT terrible or impossible?

 

[AKNova7]

No, actually, if I made a game, I'd use that idea, I had a similar one. And speeds are up? Movement speed or move execution speed? I hope the first, DOA was already the most mix-up friendly game.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Movement speed

 

[AKNova7]

Movement speed

Sounds good, then. I'll leave the movement to you guys. Alright, well, it seems honestly, that the biggest amount of issues is really the safety of moves, string delay, and canceling. With the very least being adding viable pokes.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

Kinda random but i heard about natural combo on this post, but is there any indiction when you do a natural combo? Id like to know so i could use them more to avoid getting countered. And whens the certain hit when countering is not allowed?

 

[OSTCarmine]

sitdown stun and critical burst allow unholdable followups, also wall crumples i guess

well, not crumple really, just the bounce off the wall

 

[Doug Nguyen]

sitdown stun and critical burst allow unholdable followups, also wall crumples i guess

Whats the difference in sit down stuns and critical burst. Dont they do the same just look different. But i also heard about natural combos which are combos that dont allow holds at a certain part in the combo. I just wanna know how we know its a natural combo.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Won't know of a natural combo until we get the game. Basically it's dependent on the string or stun. If you get hit by a move that puts you in a stun that won't accept a hold input until after a certain point, then the following attack in the string will be guaranteed if it reaches hit frame before the stun is holdable.

What's an added benefit is that if someone tries to hold the natural combo then they will buffer an automatic hold as soon as they can. So you can poke with a natural combo and react to a hold.

So for example in DOA3, the reeling back face stun had a huge delay in accepting a hold. That made the following strings a natural combo where parenthesis designates the attack that causes the real back stun allowing the following attack to be guaranteed if not delayed:

- ()
- ()
- ()
- ()

I think Zack's () was as well but I could be confused, it certainly was in 4.0.

Additionally, two things should be noted: (1) In the case of Leon, his last was not guaranteed, but what this allowed was a player to "poke" with 66PP, and an opponent who attempted to hold the guaranteed punch would hold immediately after the 66PP, allowing the player to actually react with a throw or string finisher for knockback. (2) To help counter-balance the advantage of low holding in stun, if you were hit with a type of mid when crouching then you would be put in a deeper stun that was unholdable. This made all three hits natural combos in the Gen Fu and Hayabusa (and Zack at least 3PP) a 3 hit natural combo which also typically gave a wall slam for a juggle.

 

[Allan Paris]

Whats the difference in sit down stuns and critical burst. Dont they do the same just look different.

A Sit-Down stun is when you or your opponent is hit with a move (a mid) and they literally go into a low sitting stun animation. The characters leg's go completely from under them.

The Critical Burst is move that activates an unholdable stun, only if you use it at the max threshold of a stun. This animation makes the character slowly fall over (face forward from what I have seen so far).

You want a Sit-Down stun so you can get the most out a CB move. This is the quickest way to get the unholdable stun. So no, they do not do the same thing, but rather go hand-in-hand to get guaranteed damage.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

Won't know of a natural combo until we get the game. Basically it's dependent on the string or stun. If you get hit by a move that puts you in a stun that won't accept a hold input until after a certain point, then the following attack in the string will be guaranteed if it reaches hit frame before the stun is holdable.

What's an added benefit is that if someone tries to hold the natural combo then they will buffer an automatic hold as soon as they can. So you can poke with a natural combo and react to a hold.

So for example in DOA3, the reeling back face stun had a huge delay in accepting a hold. That made the following strings a natural combo where parenthesis designates the attack that causes the real back stun allowing the following attack to be guaranteed if not delayed:

- ()
:Genfu: - ()
- ()
- ()

I think Zack's () was as well but I could be confused, it certainly was in 4.0.

Additionally, two things should be noted: (1) In the case of Leon, his last was not guaranteed, but what this allowed was a player to "poke" with 66PP, and an opponent who attempted to hold the guaranteed punch would hold immediately after the 66PP, allowing the player to actually react with a throw or string finisher for knockback. (2) To help counter-balance the advantage of low holding in stun, if you were hit with a type of mid when crouching then you would be put in a deeper stun that was unholdable. This made all three hits natural combos in the Gen Fu and Hayabusa (and Zack at least 3PP) a 3 hit natural combo which also typically gave a wall slam for a juggle.

Kinda hard for me to visualize. Maybe ill just stick with playing the game casually then.