Bayman Okizeme Tactics
- Thread starter Genereaver
- Start date
Genereaver
New Member
...I can't believe I missed that. Well, at least I'm reasonably sure I went to the trouble of figuring it out before that thread popped up, so I don't have to feel TOO stupid.
force techs? I didn't know that,then again I never really gave the opponent time to get up as I was far to entertained by spamming it and watching my opponents face repedatley smack against the pavement.
Genereaver
New Member
The point behind a force tech is that you aren't giving your opponent time to get up (in the case of a hard knockdown, like ), or they've decided not to tech. A force tech throws your opponent off, because they don't get to choose when they get up or use a wakeup kick, and also gives you pretty heavy frame advantage. By spamming it like you say you have, you should have noticed that using it once they're already on the ground led to them standing up with a slightly different animation; that's a force tech.
), or they've decided not to tech. A force tech throws your opponent off, because they don't get to choose when they get up or use a wakeup kick, and also gives you pretty heavy frame advantage. By spamming it like you say you have, you should have noticed that using it once they're already on the ground led to them standing up with a slightly different animation; that's a force tech.
I don't remmember them getting any sort of standing animation they kinda just held their backs in pain and didn't look like they were getting up.guess I'll get on there later today and try it
Genereaver
New Member
Were you hitting them while they were down, or stunned? The only move I can think of that would lead to what you've described is
on stun, or in a similar situation.So some bad news and some good news:
Unholdables look to be generally out. If the guide is correct holds are 0-frame now, and I tested the setup p+k p+k p+k p+k (which gives you +20). p+k is 19 frames and has 3 hit frames, so unless I fail at mashing I'm pretty sure that the second hit frame should be active on the first vulnerable frame of the tech. The cpu could hold it and so could I. I would therefore not assume you have anything that can't be held after the force tech. Unfortunately.
The good news: Bayman has a setup for a safe force tech after a juggle and it is dirty as fuck. As I suspected, 6ppk will give you the opportunity to use an instant 1k p+k to force tech if they don't tech. However, if they do tech, you're only at -1 so you're totally safe. Even better, you can slightly delay the followup k in 1kk and it will interrupt almost anything they throw out (Kasumi p eats it on counter). So your opponent can:
Miss the tech, and get forced back up at +20; from a hold 3p, 236p starter the whole 6ppk 1k p+k sequence gives you about 72 points of damage, so pretty solid (the RSJ (TM) is 84 points not 92 on normal hit, I got confused with the damage for a different ground throw setup, sorry).
Hit the tech and try to avoid the mid kick/throw/OH mixup you've got handy. I think 6f+p might beat most standing attacks as wel even after the 1k whiffl. But don't quote me on that yet. However, if they're hold happy they know they must hold mid kick. The windmill should disabuse them of that idea. 1kk is not safe on block so be careful.
Or you can always stay safe and do something else (tank roll, block, whatever) to exploit their reaction. This is a good one and the damage is quite respectable and an improvement in damage on the hold 3p, p+k, 1k, p+k force (that is only 50 on normal hit, my mistake there as well, I apologize). So if you don't need the damage, I would present the Shinryu Standard Juggle (TM) as 236p 6ppk 1k. Then followed by the appropriate option depending.
Unholdables look to be generally out. If the guide is correct holds are 0-frame now, and I tested the setup p+k p+k p+k p+k (which gives you +20). p+k is 19 frames and has 3 hit frames, so unless I fail at mashing I'm pretty sure that the second hit frame should be active on the first vulnerable frame of the tech. The cpu could hold it and so could I. I would therefore not assume you have anything that can't be held after the force tech. Unfortunately.
The good news: Bayman has a setup for a safe force tech after a juggle and it is dirty as fuck. As I suspected, 6ppk will give you the opportunity to use an instant 1k p+k to force tech if they don't tech. However, if they do tech, you're only at -1 so you're totally safe. Even better, you can slightly delay the followup k in 1kk and it will interrupt almost anything they throw out (Kasumi p eats it on counter). So your opponent can:
Miss the tech, and get forced back up at +20; from a hold 3p, 236p starter the whole 6ppk 1k p+k sequence gives you about 72 points of damage, so pretty solid (the RSJ (TM) is 84 points not 92 on normal hit, I got confused with the damage for a different ground throw setup, sorry).
Hit the tech and try to avoid the mid kick/throw/OH mixup you've got handy. I think 6f+p might beat most standing attacks as wel even after the 1k whiffl. But don't quote me on that yet. However, if they're hold happy they know they must hold mid kick. The windmill should disabuse them of that idea. 1kk is not safe on block so be careful.
Or you can always stay safe and do something else (tank roll, block, whatever) to exploit their reaction. This is a good one and the damage is quite respectable and an improvement in damage on the hold 3p, p+k, 1k, p+k force (that is only 50 on normal hit, my mistake there as well, I apologize). So if you don't need the damage, I would present the Shinryu Standard Juggle (TM) as 236p 6ppk 1k. Then followed by the appropriate option depending.
Genereaver
New Member
You say you could hold it; did you do it by holding at the exact right time, or can you hold out of the forcetech rising animation? Or can you buffer holds to that degree?
It's not that bufferable, but the timing's not that hard. You do have to see it coming and it's probably harder to do in a match than it is in training.
Unfortunately, it looks like the force tech situation is a little more complicated than I had originally thought. Apparently some knockdowns (like p+k NOT in a juggle) actually entirely disable teching until the opponent gets up somehow, while others don't. So if you spike someone with p+k from a stun, 1k will hit and they cannot tech a p+k followup. In a juggle, however, the 1k and p+k are both techable. Unfortunately it looks like the 6ppk combo in a juggle doesn't give you the tech deactivation effect, so the p+k after 1k is also techable (and puts you at nasty disadvantage if you whiff). I think you can watch and see if they tech, though, and react appropriately. However, if you're wanting a guaranteed force tech you pretty much have to use p+k/4k, 1k, p+k/4k as your ender. 4k will give you an extra point of damage but same advantage, but you have to free cancel the 1k. Damage is only about 50 points after a hold 3p starter. Weirdly, against Bayman and Bass, I think the hitbox is such you may just be able to use a raw p+k p+k after launch to get the force tech and they can't do anything about it. I'm not entirely certain about that.
However:
1) You can use 6ppk to force tech from a juggle by slightly delaying the k ender. If the opponent doesn't tech, you will get a +16 force tech; if they do, you should have slight advantage (+2~+4). There may be a timing where this is an unescapable force tech as it will hit them before they can tech. I cannot do this reliably however. The damage is also not a huge improvement (approximately 59 damage vs. 50 for a guaranteed 3p p+k 1k p+k setup). Might be a good mindfuck once in a while to pull out though. If you vary with spiking them vs. going for the force tech it may screw up their tech timing and make it easier to get the ground throw or to set up the 1k p+k after 6ppk if nothing else.
2) There's kind of a nifty setup from 9k (puppy kicker represent!). Basically, if you launch with 9k the shitty launch height means that a p+k will hit and force tech when they hit the ground. If they tech, it'll whiff, but you're hitting so late in the animation that you'll recover way before they do. You're effectively at least +5 or +6 (could beat a 10 frame jab with 3k, didn't check a 9 frame). So you can definitely keep the pressure on from this setup one way or the other. Again, it's kind of a mindfuck more than anything. The damage is only about 50 points if the whole thing connects so it's definitely not superior to the guaranteed setup in that sense.
Genereaver
New Member
Yes, that's what I'm talking about in the first post when I say 'hard knockdown'.
, , , , out of a stun (but not a juggle), and , and (out of a juggle) are all hard knockdowns. I used to use them to get into his grounded throws, until I found out about force teching, and now I use them for forcetech setups (except , it's a very short hard knockdown so doesn't give enough time for anything but the roll->grab followup or just a grab).I could only ever get that to work on Bayman reliably in training for some reason. I need to check with the other characters, since I think I only tried on Kasumi and sometimes the lightweights seem to react strangely relative to the other characters or there's some sort of hitbox oddity going on.
Genereaver
New Member
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Is
No. Use
during the juggle, and use as a force tech.This gets around Kasumi's stupid hitbox and you'll be at least +12 with favorable reach. (bow chicka wow wow)
KidArk
Active Member
So, I made my post in another forum not realizing this had what I was looking for, I for some reason felt I saw this on another forum. Um , a sort of BnB combo as of late with my Bayman has been
, , , I would then break my D.D.T on the second or first section of the grab depending on their hp , since the break leaves me with favorable frame advantage then either do / , or if their hp is low enough for that. Could someone tell me if this is viable as an offensive tool ? I do understand the D.D.T can be crouched out of so I'd only attempt it once , if they crouch the second D.D.T i'll only attempt another force tech and instead do Bayman's low offensive hold or use H+K to set them into a back turned stun where i'll just take whatever i feel would kill them at that point.
UPDATE: I just had a battle with some rather competent people online and they showed me that my
after the Force Tech can be countered by simply grabbing Bayman, there are a multitude of other possibilities after the initial so I didn't let that dissuade me
, , , I would then break my D.D.T on the second or first section of the grab depending on their hp , since the break leaves me with favorable frame advantage then either do / , or if their hp is low enough for that. Could someone tell me if this is viable as an offensive tool ? I do understand the D.D.T can be crouched out of so I'd only attempt it once , if they crouch the second D.D.T i'll only attempt another force tech and instead do Bayman's low offensive hold or use H+K to set them into a back turned stun where i'll just take whatever i feel would kill them at that point. UPDATE: I just had a battle with some rather competent people online and they showed me that my
after the Force Tech can be countered by simply grabbing Bayman, there are a multitude of other possibilities after the initial so I didn't let that dissuade me
Souichiro
Member
Dont break D.D.T for that. the last part of it is by far the most damaging so if you land it go with it. The only throw i'm currently breaking at the last part to maintain frame advantage is
where the first part is the most damaging and the last is the least. So in this case breaking it at the last part is a win-win.
KidArk
Active Member
I feel uncomfortable with the setup you get after D.D.T finishes all you're left with is a wake up , unless there's something else that can be done, I'd much rather break it for the frame advantage as most people won't even know that i would let them break the D.D.T so if anything I'd be able to catch them with another or just start a whole new combo all together with the frame advantage that would easily beat the D.D.T ending damage and I can end whatever combo I do with a force tech to only ensure more options for myself even another D.D.T which at this point would be death if all 3 parts connect.