Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Please tell me that it's something positive, way too much emo energy around here these days.
Black Mamba's Kill Blog
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BlackxxxMamba
Active Member
New blog entry added:
DOA5 Helena Patch Wish List
http://blackmambamoan.blogspot.com/2012/10/doa5-helena-patch-wish-list.html
I wanted to address the fact that Helena is nerfed quite a bit and give out some of my opinions on what should be changed. If there is any gripes that any of you have, feel free to express them in this thread.
DOA5 Helena Patch Wish List
http://blackmambamoan.blogspot.com/2012/10/doa5-helena-patch-wish-list.html
I wanted to address the fact that Helena is nerfed quite a bit and give out some of my opinions on what should be changed. If there is any gripes that any of you have, feel free to express them in this thread.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
A quick heads up, you said 8K should be -4 so it can be punished by grapplers, it would need to be -5. On that topic I don't think a launcher should be safe, I think that is a bad idea, non chargeable launchers should always be unsafe.
I don't honestly think compiling lists of buff's is particularly worthwhile. I may not be on the same page as a lot of you guys but I do agree that Helena is stupidly unsafe for no reason.
Here's the problem as I see it. When Helena was revealed DrDogg told us she:
* Had lost her P+K crush
* Lost her BKO force tech
* Was completely unsafe
* Had frame advantage going into BKO
We asked for more frame advantage, more safe attacks and for P+K to crush high's again.
We got:
* P+K crushes High's AND Mid's again
* No safe moves returned
* Lost frame advantage going into BKO
* Good side stepping game
The point I am trying to make is that they seem to have a set idea of what they want Helena to conform to and I don't think they are listening to us seeing as the changes they made to her after her reveal are nothing like what we asked for. for. We wanted frame advantage they removed what little she had, we wanted safety we got jack.
Making lists won't hurt I suppose but don't get too attached to the idea that what you ask for will be even close to what you get.
BlackxxxMamba
Active Member
The "-4" thing was a typo. I was actually talking about that the other day with people. I'll fix that.
And why can't launchers be safe sometimes? In Tekken, Bob and Lars have safe launchers. Bob has a safe CH launcher that crushes highs. Lars has a safe NORMAL HIT launcher that... well... he jumps high in the air, so we can assume what all that crushes. Not to mention that juggles straight up maul you in that game. You may think it's a bad idea, but you have to accept the fact that it's like that sometimes. Even the "unsafe" launchers in Tekken are only punished by 1,2 most of the time.
I don't expect Team Ninja to just completely give in to my demands and just make every single change. I'm just giving them an idea of what is wrong with this character, an argument to backup my point, and how to fix it. Again, do I expect them to make these changes? No, but they have to realize that this character does not play the DOA5 system well at all.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
That's Tekken though. The way I see it is things that offer high pay off like guaranteed damage should have a down side, like being unsafe. List want you want, I hope it happens I really do but all I'm saying is don't get your hopes up. We asked for stuff last time and they ignored us completely, they didn't even listen to DrDogg. Cause of that I'm not holding out much hope.
BlackxxxMamba
Active Member
Yea, that may be the way YOU see things, but that's not how it is sometimes. Lets be serious here, how often do you see a launcher hit on NH in DOA, without getting someone in stun first or on CH, and they get launched? 8K doesn't launch on NH, so what would be the problem if this move was made safe? The way this move is used in its current state is you get them stunned and then you 8k or BKO F+K for the launch. Or hell, you even catch them on CH, then it launches.
My point is 8K is not a single hit launcher. So no, it wouldn't be unfair if 8K was safe. It could also be made into a tool for something to put on someone's block. (it makes sense) As for her launchers that do launch on NH, (9K, 7K, BKO P+K) those are unsafe. I have faith that you understand where I'm getting at with this because I don't really plan on reexplaining this.
I also like how you just assume that because DrDogg couldn't get the changes means that someone else can't. I'm not DrDogg and he isn't the only one with any influence around here. Again, I'm not "getting my hopes up." I just think you are thinking too much into it.
BlackxxxMamba
Active Member
The thing about her BKO duck in DOA4 was that it went under ALL highs and ALL MIDS. Now I see why they nerfed it a bit. Personally, I'm fine with it. Just not as abuseable anymore and can't completely rely on it. NOW if they wanted to make it how it was in DOA4, please believe I'm not gonna argue with them. haha.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
My quick list of additions/changes followed by my take on Mamba's. I avoided overlap between the two:
- 10-15% damage buff.
- 4P should be +3 on block.
- Less recovery on BKO Duck
- Faster tech crouch on BKO (i5) and BKO Duck (i4)
- BT 4P+K (whatever the new move is, forget the notation off hand) should be +2 on block
- BT PP2P should be +5 on hit like it was in DOA2U
- 33P should be i12
- BT throw and 214T should give enough frame advantage to get a guaranteed launch. If not 214T, definitely BT throw since it's so slow and Helena doesn't have a low throw from BT
- SS P should be safe (-7)
I agree with this, so long as PPP becomes safe again. Although I actually think it should be +2 or even +3. Helena is one of the slower characters in the game. Put her up against Pai, Christie, Kasumi or even Jann Lee and +1 means nothing.
LIMBOOOOO STUUUUN!
I could take this or leave it. If Helena doesn't have a forced tech game from BT I won't complain. I'd rather focus on other issues.
This should be at least +15. It's high and slow, she should get a guaranteed attack if it's blocked. Akira does, Christie does, no reason Helena shouldn't. Also, if she gains the ability to transition into BT or BKO, she should get the same or better advantage, She should not get less advantage for the stance transition.
I agree with this. Although I don't know how much it would benefit her. That's an awkward stun that can be hard to follow up. I'm not sure how much Helena would be able to get off of this.
- Change 236P+K back to the old notation of 3P+K.
- All "handslap" attacks should be 0 on block at the very least. I'd prefer they be +2 so that Helena can beat out i11 mids.
Maybe I'm confusing things, but isn't this her jumping kick that leaves her in BKO? If so, at -5 she can be punished by pretty much every character, just like how her handslaps that are -4 can be punished.
It should be safe... I also wouldn't mind a sit-down stun, but I don't see that happening. Kokoro gets one off of a similar attack, but her fighting style is different than Helena's. Oddly enough, you get a sit-down stun if 66P hits on NH... or at least you did at one point. I don't remember if that's still the case in the final build. Not that it matters, since the likelihood of hitting anything on normal hit is pretty rare.
All open palm attacks should be safe though. At the very least they should all be -5 like they were in DOA4.
- 10-15% damage buff.
- 4P should be +3 on block.
- Less recovery on BKO Duck
- Faster tech crouch on BKO (i5) and BKO Duck (i4)
- BT 4P+K (whatever the new move is, forget the notation off hand) should be +2 on block
- BT PP2P should be +5 on hit like it was in DOA2U
- 33P should be i12
- BT throw and 214T should give enough frame advantage to get a guaranteed launch. If not 214T, definitely BT throw since it's so slow and Helena doesn't have a low throw from BT
- SS P should be safe (-7)
I agree with this, so long as PPP becomes safe again. Although I actually think it should be +2 or even +3. Helena is one of the slower characters in the game. Put her up against Pai, Christie, Kasumi or even Jann Lee and +1 means nothing.
LIMBOOOOO STUUUUN!
I could take this or leave it. If Helena doesn't have a forced tech game from BT I won't complain. I'd rather focus on other issues.
This should be at least +15. It's high and slow, she should get a guaranteed attack if it's blocked. Akira does, Christie does, no reason Helena shouldn't. Also, if she gains the ability to transition into BT or BKO, she should get the same or better advantage, She should not get less advantage for the stance transition.
I agree with this. Although I don't know how much it would benefit her. That's an awkward stun that can be hard to follow up. I'm not sure how much Helena would be able to get off of this.
- Change 236P+K back to the old notation of 3P+K.
- All "handslap" attacks should be 0 on block at the very least. I'd prefer they be +2 so that Helena can beat out i11 mids.
Maybe I'm confusing things, but isn't this her jumping kick that leaves her in BKO? If so, at -5 she can be punished by pretty much every character, just like how her handslaps that are -4 can be punished.
It should be safe... I also wouldn't mind a sit-down stun, but I don't see that happening. Kokoro gets one off of a similar attack, but her fighting style is different than Helena's. Oddly enough, you get a sit-down stun if 66P hits on NH... or at least you did at one point. I don't remember if that's still the case in the final build. Not that it matters, since the likelihood of hitting anything on normal hit is pretty rare.
All open palm attacks should be safe though. At the very least they should all be -5 like they were in DOA4.
Doug Nguyen
Well-Known Member
What are the chances of these changes happening in the next patch? They all seem very practical.
MCDOA
Member
I'm by no means a Helena expert, but some of the changes I thought would be useful for her:
A low hitting string while in BKO, I feel like she's too predictable in that stance.
Her 7P should come out a little faster.
A quick backturn that doesn't involve a punch or kick.
A standing combo throw.
She needs at least one more guard break move, she has far too few compared to most of the rest of the cast.
A low hitting string while in BKO, I feel like she's too predictable in that stance.
Her 7P should come out a little faster.
A quick backturn that doesn't involve a punch or kick.
A standing combo throw.
She needs at least one more guard break move, she has far too few compared to most of the rest of the cast.
KwonJigglypuff
Well-Known Member
We've been asking for this for years, but it's like they want it to be specific to Lisa and Ayane. Ayane because they want her to rely on her BT stance, and Lisa because... don't know why.
But I agree with you, I wish it could happen.
What I would like to see is a BKO parry too. Would be nice and I think it would fit the character. Characters based on chinese fighting styles tend to have parries (Lei Fang, Eliot, Gen Fu). They want us to rely on her BKO stance ? Well then, give us more tricks.
If she got all BKO buffs and kept everything the same, I'd be totally fine.
- 1 frame crouch off 2P+K stance transition
- BKO 6PP faster than her jab (9 or 10)
- BKO 6P4PP ends in 0 or + frames on block
- A low BKO throw
But, that's crazy talk.
A low BKO throw or a low BT throw would be just kinda cool, actually. Though I do think a low BKO throw does defeat the theoretical point of the stance (evading high attacks), I would still welcome it regardless, especially as it would really be most used for punishing dumb reactions to the stance. And I've always felt that the current BT throw would work well visually from both low and high. That said... Ayane already does something close (right?), so perhaps that is a distinction made intentionally.
I think she needs more of her 3.1 tools back. If they gave her back the ability to step out of BKO or gave her 88/22P, that would be great. Also, BKO 2K from 3.1 would be lovely since it was a practically guaranteed launcher after 214F+P.
Although in all honesty, I feel as though I might as well be wishing for world peace at this point.
Although in all honesty, I feel as though I might as well be wishing for world peace at this point.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
They said they recognise that she is "weak" in a couple of areas, but they feel she is "strong". This doesn't sound like they think she needs more than a minor tweak.
Also take into consideration they watched Mamba play her in that tournament and those matches didn't display her main weaknesses as neither Master, Rikuto or Chosen1 was throw punishing him. They didn't take advantage of her frame disadvantage from her 3in1's either so they might not be aware this is a problem.
This is true, but I feel like neglecting her 3.1 tools was a bad decision on TN's part. Almost every character has something in 5 that helped define the way they played back in 3.1. Tina has guaranteed ground throw setups and air throw juggles, Bass has his super launcher and pickup game, Christie got her sidestep back (which is better now than it was then by the way), Jann Lee has his guaranteed dragon gunner followups, etc. To not give Helena even an inferior version of her insane mobility tools from 3.1 was dumb in my opinion. I do realize this is a new game though, and I don't expect her to play the same exact way, but still. I feel like they totally changed what this character is about, and I am having the most frustrating time adapting to this game because of it.
In general, I feel like TN concerned themselves with making other characters fit into DOA 5 by giving them buffs so they can fully utilize the new system, but Helena only received nerfs to her DOA 4 tools and got nothing of substance in return, which is what Mamba, Dr. Dogg, DR2K, and others have already said. I think they set out to fix what everyone said made her too strong in DOA 4 instead of putting their energy into trying to rebuild the character to fit into DOA 5.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
When asked about why she got nerfed they said it wasn't about her being too strong it was about her not being played the way they wanted her to be. I'm very realistic when it comes to her getting buffed, she won't get any new animations so her 3.1 side step isn't going to happen. All I think they may do is change some frames and perhaps alter her damage output.
What I would like is 0 or + on her 3in1's, more frame advantage on her 214 F+P and her BT F+P so she can get a guaranteed launch, all her DOA4 safe moves back and the nerf removed from her BKO duck. This would make her a strong character, easily mid to high tier. I doubt it will happen though, they won't buff her that much.
Oh and I'd like her ponytail to get buffed. It moves like a big yellow sausage, Kasumi's looks much nicer.
Yeah I agree with you. I wasn't asking for the 3.1 sidestep in a patch since I know that's not possible. I was just saying that I think it was a mistake to leave it out to begin with.
I also agree on the ponytail. It looks . . . odd. I usually just put her hair down when I play so I don't have to look at it.
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