Competitive balance: DOA5U mechanics changes

Max536Drago

Active Member
An easier fix would be to leave the stuns as they are for the multitude of other reasons I mentioned briefly.


I am well aware of this, which is why I said they create "the same stun effect when used inside stun." So, say you land a 6P on CH and get access to a +12 or more stun. Then you hit P. It will create the same deep stun type as the following P will from here, just as they would from landing on HiC.

Now, if what you're proposing is "let's make it so you can't use PP from stun (limiting it's use to NH and CH only)," I would respond with saying that's a terrible idea, since many characters have attacks from their P strings they may like to do from stun. For example, say I get a light stun with Marie and want to follow it up with a rondo mix-up. I could freely enter rondo, but then I would lose the stun and my opponent could SE and block again, and my threshold is set back to zero for launch heights. However, I can extend the stun with PP and then go into PP6P4 or PP6K4, delaying the stun and entering the desired jab mixup without being forced into an unnecessary free-cancel such as P H 6K4

Side note: don't double or triple post.
I don't know all the characters. TN can figure that out. Just limiting people's options for keeping someone in stun is my goal. It needs to be more technical.
side note: Why did my double post bother you? I had something to add. If I edit, you might not notice that I edited, so it's waste of time.
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I don't know all the characters. TN can figure that out. Just limiting people's options for keeping someone in stun is my goal. It needs to be more technical.
I don't know everything about all characters, but I know enough about enough of them to discern that what you're proposing would cause more harm than good to the game. As such, I understand why TN wouldn't implement such a feature, since they too are considering how such a mechanic would affect each character in respect to the overall game.

side note: Why did my double post bother you? I had something to add. If I edit, you might not notice that I edited, so it's waste of time.
Double-posting is against the forum rules, and as such as a moderator it's my job to merge double-posts and it's rather tedious when I have to do it constantly for no reason at all. If it's been less than a few days since your last post in a thread (let alone less than an hour), use the edit feature in place of double-posting.
It's not a waste of time since it keeps things cleanly and organized. What is a waste of time is me having to merge your posts for no good reason.
 

StrikerSashi

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
I don't know all the characters. TN can figure that out. Just limiting people's options for keeping someone in stun is my goal. It needs to be more technical.
side note: Why did my double post bother you? I had something to add. If I edit, you might not notice that I edited, so it's waste of time.
If you don't know all the characters, it's not your place to suggest system changes.
 

Pictured Mind

Well-Known Member
Some of you are asking for buffs/nerfs/changes based on emotion instead of knowledge.

I agree with StrikerSashi. He's talking about system changes. If you're skilled (that also includes knowing what your character can do) with only one character you're not in a place to ask for system changes.

Character specific changes, yes of course. System changes? No way.
 

Max536Drago

Active Member
I want less guessing. Best mechanic idea anyone can give. Nothing I say is based on emotions... I play this game like the rest of you (probably way more, cuz nerd).
 

Pictured Mind

Well-Known Member
Nothing I say is based on emotions...

I want to make a Hitomi joke but I guess that wouldn't be a good idea.

Less guessing is definitely not the best idea. Just guess right or stagger escape. The counter system is what makes this game what it is in the first place. I really don't understand what you're trying to change or why it would be a good idea.
 

Awesmic

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I'm probably going to get a lot of flak for this just because I mentioned DOA4, but even so, I personally want DOA4's force tech system back, if only because the system appeared to be more even across the board for all characters. It may have not been the most competitively viable DOA ever, but at least its ground game was easier to understand compared to the inconsistency it is now IMO.

Everyone was allowed two hits maximum within a damage threshold... the free hit being 2k - which is generally 10 points of damage - and the second low attack force teching the opponent in a specific direction after going past the damage threshold, which I assume is 15 points of damage total. (There were exceptions to the rule, as some grapplers had the option of a ground throw or pick-up, or using a low attack in general that does well over 15 points of damage and techrolls on the first hit, though they can't choose the direction to force tech them to.)

In addition, there was a way to go straight into force tech by launching an opponent airborne, but rather than finish the air juggle for big damage, land 2k just as they land on the floor to bypass into force tech to sacrifice damage for oki. I believe this was called an untechable.

If there was a way to tweak the advantage from using a raw force tech against an opponent who doesn't techroll after a knockdown (or hard knockdown) vs. an untechable from an airborne opponent, there'd be a reason to keep both methods in the game. Otherwise the untechables should be removed somehow, limiting its use to only hard knockdowns or punishment for opponents who don't techroll.

However, I'm also aware that Rachel has a unique 2k that has a special property that force techs the opponent back. If they were to bring that force tech system back, the command input would likely have to change.

Once again, I'm just a guy with an opinion. So don't jump down my throat like I'm acting like my word is law and I'm a know-it-all. I'm just a guy playing my game and sharing my concern for those who play characters who probably don't have a strong force tech strategy to the best of my knowledge. That's it.
 
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crapoZK

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I'm probably going to get a lot of flak for this just because I mentioned DOA4, but even so, I personally want DOA4's force tech system back, if only because the system appeared to be more even across the board for all characters. It may have not been the most competitively viable DOA ever, but at least its ground game was easier to understand compared to the inconsistency it is now IMO.

Everyone was allowed two hits maximum within a damage threshold... the free hit being 2k - which is generally 10 points of damage - and the second low attack force teching the opponent in a specific direction after going past the damage threshold, which I assume is 15 points of damage total. (There were exceptions to the rule, as some grapplers had the option of a ground throw or pick-up, or using a low attack in general that does well over 15 points of damage and techrolls on the first hit.)

In addition, there was a way to go straight into force tech by launching an opponent airborne, but rather than finish the air juggle for big damage, land 2k just as they land on the floor to bypass into force tech to sacrifice damage for oki. I believe this was called an untechable.

If there was a way to tweak the advantage from using a raw force tech against an opponent who doesn't techroll after a knockdown (or hard knockdown) vs. an untechable from an airborne opponent, there'd be a reason to keep both methods in the game. Otherwise the untechables should be removed somehow, limiting its use to only hard knockdowns or punishment for opponents who don't techroll.

However, I'm also aware that Rachel has a unique 2k that has a special property that force techs the opponent back. If they were to bring that force tech system back, the command input would likely have to change.

Once again, I'm just a guy with an opinion. So don't jump down my throat like I'm acting like my word is law and I'm a know-it-all. I'm just a guy playing my game and sharing my concern for those who play characters who probably don't have a strong force tech strategy to the best of my knowledge. That's it.
I loved the DOA4 FT system. DOA5V's FT system decent, and Zack was a bigger monster than what he is now. Plus, the enemy was not invisible to low attacks until the had to wake up kick, so that's a big ass bonus.

It would also make the CFSs (Core Fighter Scrubs) think about tech rolling, rather than to abuse the WUK system. I actually do find myself doing it as well though, and that is not good.

It would also make Persona 4 a big threat, and buffs her in the object of the system change. Think about how many downward mid attacks she has. This used to work quite a bit with attacks like Jann-Lee's 4P, Zack's 214P and 4H+K, Hayabusa/Kasumi's 4H+K, Bass' 66P and 1PP, Brad's 6KK, Lei Fang's H+K and others, Ayane's 4K (I think), and many more moves, without the risk of whiffing completely whiffing the attack.
 
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Max536Drago

Active Member
I want to make a Hitomi joke but I guess that wouldn't be a good idea.

Less guessing is definitely not the best idea. Just guess right or stagger escape. The counter system is what makes this game what it is in the first place. I really don't understand what you're trying to change or why it would be a good idea.
I should of said less luck. Well, less of both. I want it to be more technical. I don't like that you can stun someone, then launch, without deepening the stun and working for that juggle. There are 3 different directions for launchers that you can use (for most characters), but you also have to worry about being high counter thrown, being put in a force tech setup, getting CB'd, put into a dangerzone, wall, knocked off a cliff. Someone might even charge a powerblow right in front of your face while you are stunned. We need less variables in this game.

I want adapting to your opponent to be more beneficial for you, also knowing their characters moves, what your opponent has to follow up with, and what you can stagger escape (which you can hardly stagger anything, unless they delay), to get your opponent to do a combo that you can't SE, so that you can predict and hold it. I want something like "ok, my opponent is in this stun, so I need to know which kind of stun I need to do next that'll make it last longer, instead of making them fall". Here's situation: Christie, Leifang, etc, use their wall throws on you and now you are in a state where you cannot use a rising kick. There's no solid way out of the predicament. They they could use the wall throw/offensive hold on you again, or stun you, or cause you to hit the wall for a combo. It's crazy. It's not even skill, it's just LUCK! I shouldn't have to explain this, you play the game, too; you know how this game works! Don't tell me that I need to adapt better. Your opponent is a living breathing human just like you, with a brain, and he will try to out predict you. The smarter play is not always the best move to make. Acting dumb gets you places in this game.

In VF, you don't have to worry about low jabs when you have a spec of health left. You can block low jabs with a standing guard. People say Rachel is broken, well, if offensive holds didn't track(because they are concentrating their power on catching your attack), and throws were breakable (not when when punishing an unsafe move, hold, or getting a counter throw), we wouldn't be so afraid of her when she has the advantage, because our quick reactions and paying attention would save us from being continually blendered by her from making one wrong guess.

I like the freedom we have to mix up our opponents that DOA gives us, but there is really no limit to how far you can go with it. Oh, wow, you can't stun with the same move in a row; BIG DEAL! Hitomi can stun with 9P, then do her jab, then 9P, then jab again. That doesn't even take away a direction. It's kinda pointless. And Christie players. They abuse that darn 4K she has. You can counter hit with it, then do it again to get a 91 point damaging combo. You dont' think that's too easy? I'd abuse the freak out of that. If you try to hold the kick, you might get thrown for massive damage. That's where my idea of less launching moves and getting little to no height off launchers unless you are in a critical stun level 3 or CB stun state.

All these ideas together would really make the game too difficult and convoluted. That's not my intention. I'm posting all these different ideas so that TN can have them at their disposal, to give them something to ponder on, a gateway to better balanced DOA. Other ideas: Guaranteed moves from sit down stuns will always knock your opponent on the floor, unless it is a launcher (because you do not have proper footing), and there cannot be any guaranteed critical bursts from sit-down stuns either (for the same reason with the footing). Faint stuns need to be nerfed somehow. That's like having another critical burst...

parries should not deflect every single move in that direction. Really heavy moves like Hitomi's 66H+K, 3H+K, and 4P+K should over power parries. I shouldn't be scared to be on the offensive. Leifang has too many ways to make up for her mistakes. Kasumi's teleport parries should be one for punches and one for kicks, not mid or high. Taking away all mid attacking options is absurd. There shouldn't be a wall bounce if that person was deep in stun when hitting it (critical stun level 3, maybe 2 as well). Tech rolling should be P+K+H, like in virtua fighter, so less skilled players won't be tech rolling all inconsistently, and actually, neither would good players kinda. Hitomi needs a damage, speed, and powerblow buff (I'm joking) :)
 
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Awesmic

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I loved the DOA4 FT system. DOA5V's FT system decent, and Zack was a bigger monster than what he is now. Plus, the enemy was not invisible to low attacks until the had to wake up kick, so that's a big ass bonus.

It would also make the CFSs (Core Fighter Scrubs) think about tech rolling, rather than to abuse the WUK system. I actually do find myself doing it as well though, and that is not good.

It would also make Persona 4 a big threat, and buffs her in the object of the system change. Think about how many downward mid attacks she has. This used to work quite a bit with attacks like Jann-Lee's 4P, Zack's 214P and 4H+K, Hayabusa/Kasumi's 4H+K, Bass' 66P and 1PP, Brad's 6KK, Lei Fang's H+K and others, Ayane's 4K (I think), and many more moves, without the risk of whiffing completely whiffing the attack.
Take heed in what you're saying, as I'm among those "Core Fighter Scrubs" you mentioned. I may be a "fraud" to some, but I don't think like a scrub. The fact you even buy into this myth in the first place troubles me.

Also, I believe you meant Phase 4, lol.
 

crapoZK

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Take heed in what you're saying, as I'm among those "Core Fighter Scrubs" you mentioned. I may be a "fraud" to some, but I don't think like a scrub. The fact you even buy into this myth in the first place troubles me.

Also, I believe you meant Phase 4, lol.
Lol I call her Persona 4 now.

Don't worry, I meant the people who rage about grabbing, and combos, and only just come into DOA from 5U:CF that came in from the CoD community. (Not saying that ALL CoD players act like the way the hatemailers do)
 

Tulkas

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Premium Donor
Those half a second long stung from jabs should be revised. Jabs are the fastest move in the game, it is extremelly cheap.
 

UncleKitchener

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Standard Donor
Those half a second long stung from jabs should be revised. Jabs are the fastest move in the game, it is extremelly cheap.

I don't know about that. If it's in stun, then it gives everyone non staggerable setups and if you know if someone's going to go for that, then you'd have a better idea of their general approach. Then again, in 5U almost everyone in the game has non stagger setups, so maybe we could have less stun on jabs in critical stun.

If it's about hi-counter jabs, then it makes sense because everything on hi counter causes heavy stun anyway.
 
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