Do you want a tournament scene?

[Matt Ponton]

He has just as much a chance of 'making it happen' as any one else does.

 

[Chris Harris]

Well the problem with DoA is it is already deemed as non-worthy which I think is what Dr.Dogg is referring to. People will play it but it will die out fast if they aren't feeling it. The game looks amazing but many people will be put off by the way the counters are. I personally think just by making them feel like a TRUE risk/reward and actually reward people for blocking and using defensive measures other than counter will keep people playing.

People aren't discussing important aspects of the game that benefits everyone as a WHOLE only what makes them feel better (i.e., Holds, lobby, etc.).

While it's true even if the game is super solid is no guarantee that it will have some amazing tourney scene. There has to be a happy medium for people to keep playing. Most of the people who make up the scenes of other tournaments are not like the strongest players but they like the game so they enter and play it.

From messing with demo when I had it there are stuns that leave you in pure 50/50's because like I said before most of the stuns can be slow escaped. What they should do is remove slow escaping, make many more attacks true combos/nh launchers, and knock down attacks. Stuns should be a reward that you get for correctly guessing and you get a combo for it.

The counter system is fine but it should have a serious backlash for using it so freely. I am still a firm believer of it being like -30/40 on whiff so you know you are dead. It seems like a REALLY bad idea but it will MAKE people block, it will MAKE people pay attention, and most certainly will force people to not even consider spamming it for having such a huge backlash. This has worked with every other fighter in the world. . .

 

[Matt Ponton]

Well the problem with DoA is it is already deemed as non-worthy which I think is what Dr.Dogg is referring to. People will play it but it will die out fast if they aren't feeling it. The game looks amazing but many people will be put off by the way the counters are. I personally think just by making them feel like a TRUE risk/reward and actually reward people for blocking and using defensive measures other than counter will keep people playing.

Let me be clear here and say that I'm not disagreeing with this.

I'm just pointing out what really makes a "tournament scene", and that's the community that wants to support whatever game it is that they're playing. Adding to that community support is what is dependent on what the game provides, which DOA at this time does not provide enough in comparison to other games that have a "tournament scene".

 

[Chris Harris]

Let me be clear here and say that I'm not disagreeing with this.

I'm just pointing out what really makes a "tournament scene", and that's the community that wants to support whatever game it is that they're playing. Adding to that community support is what is dependent on what the game provides, which DOA at this time does not provide enough in comparison to other games that have a "tournament scene".

Yes I agree with that too. Just adding to it I suppose lol

 

[DrDogg]

For you and most players already in a competitive fighting game scene, the DOA5 alpha demo does not feature enough for you to put down your money for a tournament. For others, it might be enough, it might not. It's up to the community that grows out of that game to really decide and see how it fits into the larger Fighting Game Community.

I concur with this statement. However, I believe that it would be far easier to get people already in the competitive FGC to transition to DOA5 as opposed to convincing casuals to get into the competitive scene. Therefore, appealing to the greater FGC community would offer better results compared to pulling more casuals.

...no interactive lobby along the lines of DOA4 to screw up the netcode...

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. I'm fine with DOA4 lobbies, so long as the netcode is solid. My point was that the netcode needs to take priority over anything else (in terms of online play).

What about character individuality? Offensive holds to grappler classes? Special evasive properties for stance characters? Frame advantage and guaranteed situations? Would these be considered minor concerns?

All of those are minor in comparison to the greater issue(s). You could fix all that, but leave the stun/counter system of DOA4 and the game would be just as limiting. However, if you fix the stun/hold system and neglect everything else you mentioned, the game could still have a decent competitive scene. I'd like the best of both worlds, but some things are definitely more important from a competitive standpoint.

Oh, and about the ban part, I know you're not admin yet, but you have connections. You could make it happen if you wanted to.

I have connections. They do not extend to this site. I could also care less about banning someone from this site. I'd just use that nifty ignore feature.

Let me be clear here and say that I'm not disagreeing with this.

I'm just pointing out what really makes a "tournament scene", and that's the community that wants to support whatever game it is that they're playing. Adding to that community support is what is dependent on what the game provides, which DOA at this time does not provide enough in comparison to other games that have a "tournament scene".

I think the MK scene is a great comparison. The series is the best selling fighting game franchise in the US. However, the last competitive MK game was UMK3. With the release of MK9, NetherRealm made it clear that they wanted the game to be competitive. It's far from perfect, but the series took enough of a step forward to give it the competitive value people need.

Thanks to all of the effort from NetherRealm during development and with the patches post-release, the game made it into Evo two years in a row. I think this is the first time a non-Capcom/Namco fighter has done this (I could be wrong, that's just off the top of my head). What's even more impressive is that MK9 was the first entry in the series to make it into Evo at all, yet it stays for at least two years.

DOA5 doesn't have to be perfect, but it has to fix the huge, glaring flaws if it's going to stand a chance in the competitive scene.

 

[DriftSlave]

I think the quote on quote "current Issues" of the game is being overlapped by not everyone agree on what makes DOA a competitive fighter

In truth, I've only been to a few DOA tournaments and the largest one was for DOA 3.1 in SolCal a few years back. I'm sorry but I believe DOA3.1/3.2 were the best in the series but even with that being said my personal opinion and experiences amount to anything here as im not a known player, I wasn't then and im not now even though I got 3rd there. We have people here who come from different fighting game backgrounds while others are DOA only players. There are obvious and distinct camps between the two. Some want to game to chance in minor ways while others want major changes. Honestly we can theory forever but it won't change anything. Ultimately it will comedown to the "actual" changes that are made and how people will react to said changes.

currently we only have the Alpha demo to go off of, and People don't consider that version of the game tournament viable. as Mr. Wah said, the community will play a large role in the games success. If people are open to the idea of playing DOA5 in it's current state, it'll be the most realistic outcome that there are a significant amount of people who will still play DOA. Im not sure about the history of DOA4(I only know what Tom Brady and a few others have said about it) but like with SCIV I assume that DOA4 feel off the map was due to problems in the community rather then the game itself. Im not saying that this was the way things are now but it was a factor in it.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I think the quote on quote "current Issues" of the game is being overlapped by not everyone agree on what makes DOA a competitive fighter

Just want to be a grammar nazi for a post (I'm allowed to do that from time to time). The term "quote on quote" is actually "quote, end quote" and used in place of the quotation marks when quotation marks are not visible: When speaking.

Since you put quotations in your sentence, it made no sense. If you were speaking to someone though you would have said, "I think the quote current issues end quote...".

Okay, now resume to the topic .

currently we only have the Alpha demo to go off of, and People don't consider that version of the game tournament viable. as Mr. Wah said, the community will play a large role in the games success. If people are open to the idea of playing DOA5 in it's current state, it'll be the most realistic outcome that there are a significant amount of people who will still play DOA.

To go off this, I think Smash Melee is a prime example of a community that supported its game, found rules that helped make it a more competitive fighter, and did it all withOUT the Fighting Game Community. Typically, they would come to events rivaling the size of the main attraction, get them done faster, and still be able to have a fun experience. It's an example of getting those 'casuals' not already in the FGC to come out to support the game itself as certainly the FGC had nothing to do with their explosion of popularity.

Then the designer said "Fuck you" to all his fans and fucked the game over for the next iteration, but that's a different story - and people still try to play that one competitively.

 

[DriftSlave]

Just want to be a grammar nazi for a post (I'm allowed to do that from time to time). The term "quote on quote" is actually "quote, end quote" and used in place of the quotation marks when quotation marks are not visible: When speaking.

Since you put quotations in your sentence, it made no sense. If you were speaking to someone though you would have said, "I think the quote current issues end quote...".

Okay, now resume to the topic .

thanks for fixing my net grammar...It's a saying i don't use often though so... I hope that whole post isn't ruined because of that..

 

[Awesmic]

All other misconceptions rectified, I just have this one concern...

All of those are minor in comparison to the greater issue(s). You could fix all that, but leave the stun/counter system of DOA4 and the game would be just as limiting. However, if you fix the stun/hold system and neglect everything else you mentioned, the game could still have a decent competitive scene. I'd like the best of both worlds, but some things are definitely more important from a competitive standpoint.

You do know you're suggesting that universal offensive holds would still be intact, movements that should be evasive will still track, and frame advantage won't exist, right?

If I may, could you or anyone else give an example of how this fix would work around these neglected features?

 

[DrDogg]

To go off this, I think Smash Melee is a prime example of a community that supported its game, found rules that helped make it a more competitive fighter, and did it all withOUT the Fighting Game Community. Typically, they would come to events rivaling the size of the main attraction, get them done faster, and still be able to have a fun experience. It's an example of getting those 'casuals' not already in the FGC to come out to support the game itself as certainly the FGC had nothing to do with their explosion of popularity.

If DOA5 sells 8 million copies, I could see that working. Unfortunately, I don't see DOA5 selling anywhere near that many copies. Smash is a very special case.

All other misconceptions rectified, I just have this one concern...


You do know you're suggesting that universal offensive holds would still be intact, movements that should be evasive will still track, and frame advantage won't exist, right?

If I may, could you or anyone else give an example of how this fix would work around these neglected features?

Now you're just arguing semantics and not helping at all. So let's continue with that route, shall we?

I said "could". Meaning that it's not a guarantee, and I said I'd like the best of both worlds. Also, if you take DOA4 and fix the hold/stun system, it would be a much better game than what we had.

As with the MK example, the game doesn't have to be perfect, just a far enough step in the right direction.

 

[DriftSlave]

To go off this, I think Smash Melee is a prime example of a community that supported its game, found rules that helped make it a more competitive fighter, and did it all withOUT the Fighting Game Community. Typically, they would come to events rivaling the size of the main attraction, get them done faster, and still be able to have a fun experience. It's an example of getting those 'casuals' not already in the FGC to come out to support the game itself as certainly the FGC had nothing to do with their explosion of popularity.

Then the designer said "Fuck you" to all his fans and fucked the game over for the next iteration, but that's a different story - and people still try to play that one competitively.

I understand that much but DOA is getting backlash from it's own community members which isn't a good sign to anything.
im kinda interested in who you were referring to in your last statement.

the term that i misused was quote unquote...

 

[ScattereDreams]

but many people will be put off by the way the counters are. I personally think just by making them feel like a TRUE risk/reward and actually reward people for blocking and using defensive measures other than counter will keep people playing.

"This". I've stated once, or twice that if holds are removed from stuns it'll force players to explore more offensive/defensive options.

true combos/nh launchers

this - DOA5 is showing the usage of NH launchers, but more wouldn't hurt. I think all hop kicks should launch on NH. Most, if not all are just used as crushes

knock down attacks

Adding true knock downs that players can't tech up from could reduce the use of untechables, or completely knock untechables out of the game. Fishing for untechable setup's was a pain in the ass (for some characters), sometimes a waste of more potential damage, and not every character could utilize untechables. I say Helena, Nicole, and Hayabusa benefited from them those most; so every character having 2-3 knock downs that can't be teched would increase the depth.

What they should do is remove slow escaping

Eh.. Arguable??? Perhaps like VF/SC make certain stuns shakeable and some not? The timing for slow escaping should be more strict.

 

[Awesmic]

I said "could". Meaning that it's not a guarantee, and I said I'd like the best of both worlds. Also, if you take DOA4 and fix the hold/stun system, it would be a much better game than what we had.

As with the MK example, the game doesn't have to be perfect, just a far enough step in the right direction.

I can live with that answer.

 

[DriftSlave]

Eh.. Arguable??? Perhaps like VF/SC make certain stuns shakeable and some not? The timing for slow escaping should be more strict.

VF and Tekken has shakable stuns, in VF5 there is a joystick indicator to help out with this.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

I honestly dont know why theres a new thread for the same issues being covered in another topic ...

"if you want it to be tournament worthy then remove holds from stuns and fix stuns ... if not then keep it as it is " same thing over and over ...

no offense DrDogg but ...

have you even looked at the comments people are posting in srk/eventhubs when a DOA trailer comes out ?
it ranges from 1st day purchase !!! .. to ... this is looking great !! to Im looking forward to this .. etc ...
the positive feed back is way more than the negative ..

I had a little get together with someof the SC guys here in london just yesterday and they all seemed pretty excited after trying out the alpha demo .. and said stuff like .. this is insane ... last doa I played was doa2 and i dont remember it being anything like this .. its awesome ! .. etc ...

you're dealing with a new demographic in this day and age ...

and honestly theres way too many fighters out there .. and having vf5:fs and TTT2 is just 2 more games to eat a piece of the big FGC pie ...

some players are fixed on one game .. but others like to multitask ...

dont worry ... DOA5 will have its croud and it will have its tournament scene .. and people will start to take it seriously ... will it be as big as say SF4 ? which is still by far the biggese tournament scene currently out there world wide? i dont think so ... but it doesnt mean the game wont be big ...

unfortunately for DOA5 .. despite it looking great and shaping up to have an awesome engine (in my opinion at least) ... its coming at a time where the market is just over saturated ... lets see what we have ...

SSF4AE ver. 2012
Blaz blue .. whatever the new ones called
kof 13
SCV
MK9
arcana heart 3
persona 4
skull girls .
umvc3
sfxt
vf5:fs
TTT2 ... and im sure im forgetting one or two ...

i dont doubt that the game is going to do well .. infact they've been pretty successful with their advertizing if i should say so ...

but where it will fair against all these fighters .. (many of which are drasticly different from each other .. ) is something not you nor I can predict ... and i honestly think it has nothing to do with stuns ...

and I still think that the core fan base has a big role to play in a games success ...
look at sf4 ...
to this day you find a new tutorial .. a new gimmick .. or just an update of an old thing .. or sometimes stuff thats completely useless ... or people uploading replays of top players ...

you want the game to survive ?
you need to give back to keep the ALIVE in DEAD OR ALIVE ( i had to say that .. ) ... its that simple ...

 

[Matt Ponton]

I understand that much but DOA is getting backlash from it's own community members which isn't a good sign to anything.
im kinda interested in who you were referring to in your last statement.

The game director of Super Smash Bros and his decision to put in a 'mechanic' of 'tripping' in Brawl. Something where it literally is a random chance (totally programmed to happen randomly) that the character will stumble when you dash, leaving you open for an easy attack. I can't even use the word 'punishment' because it frankly shouldn't be a punishment to begin with. It's literally telling someone "Yeah, that dash feature we implemented? That core movement mechanic? Don't use it."

He stated he specifically didn't want the game to be a competitive game and only input that feature for the sole fact to make it a less competitive game by not allowing competitive players advantages to the movement system.

 

[DriftSlave]

@Mr. Wah, I had no idea that they did that to smash bros.
The person I though you were initially talking about was Ono and what he did with the gem system in SFxTK.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Honestly, I don't see an issue with the gem system as that was 'balanced' (quotes due to it being attempted for balance) with a competitive mindset in mind.

However, where they went stupid with it was the method to use gems changes the game elements, and they were allowing ways for players to have exclusive sets or gems that others would not have access to (Pre-order DLC, Paid DLC, etc.). That completely unbalances the game entirely, regardless of how balanced it may be if everyone has access to all sets from the get go.

 

[PhoenixVFIRE]

The game director of Super Smash Bros and his decision to put in a 'mechanic' of 'tripping' in Brawl. Something where it literally is a random chance (totally programmed to happen randomly) that the character will stumble when you dash, leaving you open for an easy attack. I can't even use the word 'punishment' because it frankly shouldn't be a punishment to begin with. It's literally telling someone "Yeah, that dash feature we implemented? That core movement mechanic? Don't use it."

He stated he specifically didn't want the game to be a competitive game and only input that feature for the sole fact to make it a less competitive game by not allowing competitive players advantages to the movement system.

Let's just say the only Super Smash Bros I've ever played was the first one and it is very addicting and very fun. I'm reading what your saying and it's just so hard to believe that would happen. Like what? When a game gets a competitive scene isn't that actually a good thing? That exposes your game, makes it better, and YOU make money off of it. WTF was the creator smoking? What's wrong with it being competitive? I'm lost....

 

[DriftSlave]

Honestly, I don't see an issue with the gem system as that was 'balanced' (quotes due to it being attempted for balance) with a competitive mindset in mind.

However, where they went stupid with it was the method to use gems changes the game elements, and they were allowing ways for players to have exclusive sets or gems that others would not have access to (Pre-order DLC, Paid DLC, etc.). That completely unbalances the game entirely, regardless of how balanced it may be if everyone has access to all sets from the get go.

Aside from that, the new Gem pack had created a new shitstorm due to the new assist gems, effectively ruining the games credibility in the process. I personally support boost gems for tournament play but that isn't popping off for awhile.