Do you want a tournament scene?

[HokutoNoBen]

Let's just say the only Super Smash Bros I've ever played was the first one and it is very addicting and very fun. I'm reading what your saying and it's just so hard to believe that would happen. Like what? When a game gets a competitive scene isn't that actually a good thing? That exposes your game, makes it better, and YOU make money off of it. WTF was the creator smoking? What's wrong with it being competitive? I'm lost....

The basic thing is, Sakurai was allowed to make the game as he wished, which was one of the stipulations for him coming back and making another Smash Bros. in the first place. He actually left towards the end of Melee's dev cycle, but once his old buddy, and fellow former HAL associate, Iwata became the CEO of Nintendo, Iwata was able to do a lot to insure Sakurai would be pleased. And since Nintendo was going to have a multi-platinum seller on their hands with Brawl no matter what, they had no reason to care that Melee's competitive scene was going to suffer as a result.

Sakurai's design policy was that he wanted to try and make sure that "everybody could play the game, and was a winner at the end", which is the very antithesis of what a competitive game is all about.

 

[Jefffcore]

I don't think holds need to be taken out of stuns for it to be competitive. VF is a great game, right? Where's it's tournament scene? UMvC3 is lame and it's huge... People will play what they want in the end; no matter what the system is, someone will enjoy it.... All I have to say is Capcom.

I just want the ability to hold minimized, by whatever means. Preferably not by taking it out of stun completely; I would like it to resemble DOA in the end.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Let's just say the only Super Smash Bros I've ever played was the first one and it is very addicting and very fun. I'm reading what your saying and it's just so hard to believe that would happen. Like what? When a game gets a competitive scene isn't that actually a good thing? That exposes your game, makes it better, and YOU make money off of it. WTF was the creator smoking? What's wrong with it being competitive? I'm lost....

Not to go too far off topic, though technically I think it is still relevant to the topic: http://bitmob.com/articles/super-smash-bros-brawl-a-beloved-example-of-contemptuous-game-design is an interesting piece that discusses what went wrong with Brawl. Much like many people had with DOA4's design decisions.

 

[grap3fruitman]

you want the game to survive ?
you need to give back to keep the ALIVE in DEAD OR ALIVE ( i had to say that .. ) ... its that simple ...

You want people to play DOA? You need to give people a DOA that they'll like to play. DOA4 didn't fit the bill and neither did Dimensions. So... not addressing those games' biggest flaws and expecting a scene to develop is just plain ignorant.

VF is a great game, right? Where's it's tournament scene?

In Japan, where the games have been available for some time.

I just want the ability to hold minimized, by whatever means. Preferably not by taking it out of stun completely; I would like it to resemble DOA in the end.

I don't see how removing holding from stuns will suddenly remove the awesome levels, cast of characters, movesets, smooth animations and ease of introduction that make DOA what it is.

 

[Jefffcore]

Unfortunately we don't live in Japan.

If how it looks and feels are the only thing that make it DOA, then I'll just play something else.

 

[DrDogg]

have you even looked at the comments people are posting in srk/eventhubs when a DOA trailer comes out ?
it ranges from 1st day purchase !!! .. to ... this is looking great !! to Im looking forward to this .. etc ...
the positive feed back is way more than the negative ..

The same thing happened with VF4, VF5 and a bunch of other fighters. Doesn't mean anything to the competitive scene.

If how it looks and feels are the only thing that make it DOA, then I'll just play something else.

Like what? No other game has a system that rewards guessing and gives the defensive player so many options like DOA.

 

[Gill Hustle]

I've come to the conclusion that I prefer NO HOLDS out of Stun. Been playing DOAD recently, and just forcing myself not to give in to "the urges" just to see how it feels. Personally, I don't think the Triangle System would be broken due to the fact that you can't strike or grab while in stun, so why should you be able to counter?

If stuns are modified to compliment this I think it could work.

I remember posting something about this here : http://freestepdodge.com/threads/should-being-able-to-counter-out-of-stuns-be-removed.361/

Granted if this doesn't happen, I'm gonna still buy and play the game.

 

[Rikuto]

Until Shimbori is willing to make the concession that holds can't be in stun the DOA community will have to live with 15 man tournaments.

Wish it away, argue it away all anyone wants. That's the reality and it isn't going anywhere. If you boys still haven't figured that out over the last decade you never will.

And that's how the cookie crumbles.

 

[Keylay]

DOA5 can have a tournament scene if it has a strong community supporting it. Players that like the game and believe they can win using their skill and knowledge of the game and less on luck and guessing. That's one of the reasons people go to tournaments. I see a lot of tournament players ask others to critique how they played. It helps them understand mistakes they made or what they could have done better. I can understand the issue people have with the ability to hold during critical stun in DOA. There isn't really any advice that you could recommend to someone besides guess. There's guessing in fighting games but it usually comes from trying to read your opponent. Some people have patterns. I've played noobs that kept spamming mid hold and they are easy to punish but when you get to a higher level, it's hard to figure out what to do and you don't really have a safe option (maybe do nothing lol).

However, I feel like holds in critical stun is a part of DOA and they just need to fix it. Making it a 3-point over a 4-point system won't fix it, although it will help. I'd rather them have something like removing the ability to perform a low hold during critical stun. So you'd have a safe option that gives you guaranteed damage. You could do a low attack that causes knock down or low attack that forces the opponent to recover from the critical stun. If they try to hold, they will be put into a sweep stun instead of knockdown / recovery and they'll have to deal with the mixup again. You could either choose the guaranteed low attack or risk being held by doing a launcher or stun attack. It's just an idea and not something I'm sold on. I just think they need a safe option for the attacker and more punishment for the defender.

 

[Rikuto]

DOA5 can have a tournament scene if it has a strong community supporting it. Players that like the game and believe they can win using their skill and knowledge of the game and less on luck and guessing. That's one of the reasons people go to tournaments. I see a lot of tournament players ask others to critique how they played. It helps them understand mistakes they made or what they could have done better. I can understand the issue people have with the ability to hold during critical stun in DOA. There isn't really any advice that you could recommend to someone besides guess. There's guessing in fighting games but it usually comes from trying to read your opponent. Some people have patterns. I've played noobs that kept spamming mid hold and they are easy to punish but when you get to a higher level, it's hard to figure out what to do and you don't really have a safe option (maybe do nothing lol).

However, I feel like holds in critical stun is a part of DOA and they just need to fix it. Making it a 3-point over a 4-point system won't fix it, although it will help. I'd rather them have something like removing the ability to perform a low hold during critical stun. So you'd have a safe option that gives you guaranteed damage. You could do a low attack that causes knock down or low attack that forces the opponent to recover from the critical stun. If they try to hold, they will be put into a sweep stun instead of knockdown / recovery and they'll have to deal with the mixup again. You could either choose the guaranteed low attack or risk being held by doing a launcher or stun attack. It's just an idea and not something I'm sold on. I just think they need a safe option for the attacker and more punishment for the defender.

It's not a critical part of the gameplay, it' a critical part of DOA player self-crutch mentality. Fix the stuns and there are no issues.

 

[x Sypher x]

To go off this, I think Smash Melee is a prime example of a community that supported its game, found rules that helped make it a more competitive fighter, and did it all withOUT the Fighting Game Community. Typically, they would come to events rivaling the size of the main attraction, get them done faster, and still be able to have a fun experience. It's an example of getting those 'casuals' not already in the FGC to come out to support the game itself as certainly the FGC had nothing to do with their explosion of popularity.

Then the designer said "Fuck you" to all his fans and fucked the game over for the next iteration, but that's a different story - and people still try to play that one competitively.

Smash Melee was awesome. So many cool techniques, gimmicks, strategies, options, setups, etc. to learn from. Character individuality is something that definitely shone here IMO. I truly believe that game revolutionized the series. For me Brawl was a minor step backwards. Sure it took away wavedashing, L-cancelling, jump cancelling (for the most part), and then there was the weird "tripping" bug, but it's still fun to play. It forces you to rely on your character's own strengths and weaknesses without many weird tricks. To me it feels like just an improved or revamped version of Smash 64 more or less. Melee is on an entirely different level.

 

[x Sypher x]

The game director of Super Smash Bros and his decision to put in a 'mechanic' of 'tripping' in Brawl. Something where it literally is a random chance (totally programmed to happen randomly) that the character will stumble when you dash, leaving you open for an easy attack. I can't even use the word 'punishment' because it frankly shouldn't be a punishment to begin with. It's literally telling someone "Yeah, that dash feature we implemented? That core movement mechanic? Don't use it."

He stated he specifically didn't want the game to be a competitive game and only input that feature for the sole fact to make it a less competitive game by not allowing competitive players advantages to the movement system.

One of my friends from the Smash community actually modded his Wii to remove the tripping feature, it was awesome lol.

 

[Gill Hustle]

It's not a critical part of the gameplay, it' a critical part of DOA player self-crutch mentality. Fix the stuns and there are no issues.

Yep.

Took me a while to be definite on this.

Two games I currently play competitively UMVC3 and SFxTekken for example, are what a lot of people consider "broken" due to gameplay mechanics.

UMVC3 has X-Factor, which can put ANY character on broken tier status, however it can only be used ONCE per match and has a time limit.

Same can be said for SFxT's gem system to an extent.

DOA's counters unless you have someone back turned, can happen ANY time and because of this one can lose out on in big cash payout cuz someone is "mashing". The demo seems on course to rectify this, but if the demo had online play available we'd be seeing a lot more issues in peoples youtube vids. Hell I see them in my own.

 

[d3v]

I don't think holds need to be taken out of stuns for it to be competitive. VF is a great game, right? Where's it's tournament scene? UMvC3 is lame and it's huge... People will play what they want in the end; no matter what the system is, someone will enjoy it.... All I have to say is Capcom.

I just want the ability to hold minimized, by whatever means. Preferably not by taking it out of stun completely; I would like it to resemble DOA in the end.

UMvC3/MvC3 is coming off the legacy MvC2, arguably the biggest, most competitive FG in America for the past decade. At the same time, the community is one that's used to and even enjoys a seemingly "broken" game, taking time to explore and develop the game to ts fullest. Besides, nothing in Mahvell is as fundamentally questionable as holds out of stun. The whole ability to kill off a character (and even an entire team) was what made Marvel hype. Heck, the first thing people did when they found out that the game had a hard 50 hit combo limit was find ways to break that (practical infinites, TODs, unblockable resets, double snaps, etc.) Marvel from 2000 up until 2010 was a progressive arms race of players looking to find increasingly broken stuff just to beat their opponents.
http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.ph...10-years-of-marvel-front-page-article.101424/

A good part of what can make DOA5 a good competitive game is by having a system that instigates that "arms race" among players. If holds end up strong and killing combos, then the arms race is stillborn. Now if hold simply force a reset situation where baiting them out and doing even more damage out of them or, better yet, if the system allows players to find a way to bypass holds altogether, then the game suddenly has a direction to grow it's own competitive path.

 

[Rikuto]

I've come to the conclusion that I prefer NO HOLDS out of Stun. Been playing DOAD recently, and just forcing myself not to give in to "the urges" just to see how it feels. Personally, I don't think the Triangle System would be broken due to the fact that you can't strike or grab while in stun, so why should you be able to counter?

If stuns are modified to compliment this I think it could work.

I remember posting something about this here : http://freestepdodge.com/threads/should-being-able-to-counter-out-of-stuns-be-removed.361/

Granted if this doesn't happen, I'm gonna still buy and play the game.

I'm glad you are starting to reach a higher understanding of fighting games, but I fear by the time everyone in the DOA community comes to this understanding naturally it will be too late for DOA 5.

 

[DR2K]

On the opposite end of the spectrum does VF have a tournament scene outside JP? Would making DOA5 the "perfect" fighter give it a bigger tournament scene?

"Besides, nothing in Mahvell is as fundamentally questionable as holds out of stun."

X-Factor turns the entire game into one big random luck of the draw. X-Factor is designed to punish a player for winning and reward the loser in every way the system can outside of automatically winning the match. Makes for a more entertaining game to watch though.

 

[Allan Paris]

Would making DOA5 the "perfect" fighter give it a bigger tournament scene?

Yes.

 

[DR2K]

Yes.

So what would VF need to do then?

 

[Rikuto]

On the opposite end of the spectrum does VF have a tournament scene outside JP? Would making DOA5 the "perfect" fighter give it a bigger tournament scene?

"Besides, nothing in Mahvell is as fundamentally questionable as holds out of stun."

X-Factor turns the entire game into one big random luck of the draw. X-Factor is designed to punish a player for winning and reward the loser in every way the system can outside of automatically winning the match. Makes for a more entertaining game to watch though.

Either player can X-factor though, and when it's gone it's gone. Counters are always there, and how good they are can be incredibly lopsided. Busa I'd reckon is taking around 130 points of damage in the DOA 5 alpha build at the moment. Because it totally makes sense from a game design perspective that someone attempting to do a "low risk" jab for 10 points of damage should have it reversed for 13 times that damage amount.

Then poor ayane or hayate get like 40-50 points on an advanced counter lol.

I don't think Hayates Naraku high-counter throw punishment is going to reach 130. it might be scrape close to 100.

I mean with damage scaling in his favor like that, why should hayabusa ever stop countering?

 

[DR2K]

Either player can X-factor though, and when it's gone it's gone. Counters are always there, and how good they are can be incredibly lopsided. Busa I'd reckon is taking around 130 points of damage in the DOA 5 alpha build at the moment. Because it totally makes sense that someone attempting to do a jab for 10 points of damage should have it reversed for 13 times that damage amount.

Then poor ayane or hayate get like 40-50 points on an advanced counter lol

Yeah Hayabusa has always been a troll character. Series tradition he gets everything, while the plebs starve over his left overs.

Because of how Xfactor guard cancels anything you do becomes punishable and can guarantee death.