Do you want a tournament scene?

Do you want a healthy tournament scene for DOA5?


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DrDogg

Well-Known Member
There have been a plethora of posts about 3-point holds vs. 4-point holds, frame data for the holds, video breakdowns, etc. However, the underlying issue that some people seem to ignore is the potential competitive scene.

In the past, DOA has enjoyed a meager competitive scene of approximately 15 players in the US. Aside from D.I.D., there aren't any current tournaments that run DOA. Even when DOA4 was relatively new, you rarely saw it at tournaments, and when you did, a 15-player turnout was considered "good".

So the question here is simple: Do you want DOA5 to have a proper tournament scene? Do you want to see 50 or more players at the average DOA tournament? Do you want to see DOA5 included in "majors" that seem to occur every other weekend? How about DOA5 at Evo 2013?

If your answer is "no", then I would kindly ask you to stop providing input on these controversial topics. While there's always room for the casual mindset, many of these topics are geared toward making the game tournament acceptable. If you don't have the tournament scene in mind, your opinion is not really valid in this specific sense.

If your answer is "yes", then why are you debating 3-point hold over 4-point hold? Do you really think a 4-point hold will suddenly bring in a huge tournament following? Do you think making Power Blows easy to connect will make people want to play DOA5 in tournaments? Let's fix the larger issues, then we can debate the smaller stuff.

There isn't much time to make adjustments to the game, and all of these conflicting opinions are not helping our cause. If you don't care about the tournament scene, or you're happy with 15-man tournaments, then please don't add your $0.02 to topics directly related to improving the game for tournament play.
 

Keylay

Well-Known Member
Yes, I want a tournament scene. I want to see DOA5 streamed at tournaments and I would actually go to a few. Evo is the only tournament I've been to and that was for DOA4. I want a 4-point hold system (6 preferred) over a 3-point because it's too easy to hold in 3-point system. You can still get lucky in a 4-points system but at least it will make it harder. I have a bad habit of performing a random mid hold when I'm in critical stun and it pays off more often than it should. Why is it that I always choose to hold? It's the best option and there are so many critical stuns. But I also think there's other things that need to change. I don't want power blows easier to connect. I think they are fine as they are and they may turn out more useful than we think when the game comes out. I still want more system changes for DOA5. They've made improvements over DOA4 but it's still not that different.
 

Matt Ponton

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Yes, I want a tournament scene. Unfortunately, it's not up to the finished game to make that call but the community of players who want to support whatever that game is.

Granted, the difficulty in getting more players is affected by how the system of the game is built, and who it appeals to. But just because it's built "competitively solid" does not guarantee a higher turnout in the offline tournament circuit. Just look at Vampire Savior, Arcana Heart, or Virtua Fighter as examples. Even KOF's latest version, which is highly touted doesn't get enough players as it should (based on their own community). Likewise, the MvC community I hear constantly from players saying that MVC2 is still the better game over MVC3 but everyone's just playing the newest version because that's what everyone else is doing.

Again I'll point you to a sticked news article of d3v's in pointing out what everyone should already know: A game is only legitimate if there are people playing it.
 

DriftSlave

Active Member
humm the larger issue would be holds in stuns? Nya?

seriously because DOA5 is a new game, it's going to have a decent number of people in it's turn outs....but ultimately it depends on the community and if the scene for this game is strong. Honestly I don't know where alot of people play DOA outside of Texas....So besides from DOA specific tournaments it's will mostly be up to the community in getting the game out there.

another question that you should be asking is what kind of tournament scene you want....do you want that close knitted community type of tournament scene? or do you want E-Sports?....or both?
 

Kusanagi

New Member
Yes. I do. a good competitive scene can potentially draw in more players. the game looks great both up close and on stream.
 

Matt Ponton

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Honestly I don't know where alot of people play DOA outside of Texas....So besides from DOA specific tournaments it's will mostly be up to the community in getting the game out there.

Northeast coast line.


another question that you should be asking is what kind of tournament scene you want....do you want that close knitted community type of tournament scene? or do you want E-Sports?....or both?

I personally believe the FGC is not ready for eSports, and being pushed too soon into it (like CGS) could cause detrimental harm. I'd much rather have a close knitted community that works well enough together and would have a good enough foundation to support itself should the eSports methods fail. Additionally, having such a strong knitted community would aide in providing a better eSports experience, but again I don't think any of the games in the FGC are ready for eSports at this time. I think that's been proven with the way MLG (and CGS) has handled the FGC.
 

DriftSlave

Active Member
I can see where your coming from, but alot of people are pushing for E-Sports, Like Jaxel who runs 8wayrun, personally feels that MLG is better for SCV, though he didn't really give me a reason why....

I'm not sure E-Sports is right either due to it changing people and can change the game....make it more about corporate BS and shenanigans then about having fun and playing the game in a environment your familiar with...though I don't speck for everyone when I say that.(i've never competed at MLG)
 

x Sypher x

Active Member
Yes! I do want DOA5 to be tournament healthy, NO, I want it OBESE. This game has potential to finally be recognized as a true 3D fighter. It's been a long and tiring road for many of us but I believe we can pull this shit off, as long as TN takes us seriously. I wanna see DOA5 be the cream of the crop, the talk of the year, the fighter that rivals all others (especially SF and Tekken) and steals the spotlight, I want to see people breathe, eat, sleep and shit DOA5! I want to see an evolution in the way DOA is played, TRUE HIGH LEVEL PLAY. I want to see Master get his ass handed to him on a silver platter more often (i love you man, no homo, no hatin' lol), I wanna see a fuck load of hype and love for the game, so much that it gives you a fucking boner! I want other FGC's to fear DOA5 if not join it, but most of all, I WANT DEM DOA5 TITS AND ASS!

Lol I'm kidding on that last part, but seriously I love DOA and I think it's time it rose above the ashes. WE ARE FIGHTERS dammit!
 

Matt Ponton

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I can see where your coming from, but alot of people are pushing for E-Sports, Like Jaxel who runs 8wayrun, personally feels that MLG is better for SCV, though he didn't really give me a reason why....

Right now, MLG is trying to be a "Major League" but it's doing so by trying to eliminate what would be the "Minor leagues" to give a Baseball analogy.
 

Awesmic

Well-Known Member
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So basically, everyone goes with DrDogg's suggestions to the letter, or we face his wrath and get banned.

Sounds good to me.
 

DriftSlave

Active Member
Right now, MLG is trying to be a "Major League" but it's doing so by trying to eliminate what would be the "Minor leagues" to give a Baseball analogy.
by putting it that way, it makes alot more sense...then what will happen to EVO?
 

Awesmic

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WTF are you talking about? Lol
More importantly, why is he even questioning if the folks here want a healthy tournament scene?

I think it's been made very clear to everyone who visited that's what the site's priority is... but whatever.
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
Yes, I want a tournament scene. Unfortunately, it's not up to the finished game to make that call but the community of players who want to support whatever that game is.

Granted, the difficulty in getting more players is affected by how the system of the game is built, and who it appeals to. But just because it's built "competitively solid" does not guarantee a higher turnout in the offline tournament circuit. Just look at Vampire Savior, Arcana Heart, or Virtua Fighter as examples. Even KOF's latest version, which is highly touted doesn't get enough players as it should (based on their own community). Likewise, the MvC community I hear constantly from players saying that MVC2 is still the better game over MVC3 but everyone's just playing the newest version because that's what everyone else is doing.

You're kind of missing the point. As of the Alpha build, DOA5 is not tournament ready. It's not even at the level of UMvC3, which people don't find great, but at least acceptable. You also have to factor in that MvC2 had a huge tournament scene, whereas DOA has never had a substantial tournament scene.

While a solid game does not guarantee a tournament scene, if the proper changes are not made, the game itself will guarantee the lack of a tournament scene.

humm the larger issue would be holds in stuns? Nya?

seriously because DOA5 is a new game, it's going to have a decent number of people in it's turn outs....but ultimately it depends on the community and if the scene for this game is strong. Honestly I don't know where alot of people play DOA outside of Texas....So besides from DOA specific tournaments it's will mostly be up to the community in getting the game out there.

another question that you should be asking is what kind of tournament scene you want....do you want that close knitted community type of tournament scene? or do you want E-Sports?....or both?

Holds in stun is a huge issue at the moment, yes. And I agree that DOA5 will have decent numbers right out of the gate, pretty much no matter what. However, I'd like to see solid numbers throughout the life of the game, and not just for the first few months. I'd like to see it at Evo 2013, which will not happen unless the game is solid or there's some indication that large numbers will come out for the game.

Also, if the game is solid, it will have the community tournament following. It won't matter if it gets the eSports following as well. That said, I can personally guarantee the game will have an eSports following if it's solid enough.

So basically, everyone goes with DrDogg's suggestions to the letter, or we face his wrath and get banned.

Sounds good to me.

No...

My issue is more along the lines of people forgetting the big picture (in terms of the competitive scene). People are arguing over 3-point hold and 4-point hold, but the issue is holding in stun. The hold system could be identical to DOA4 (in terms of frame data), but if you can't hold during a stun, it would drastically change the game.

People are talking about the visual aspects of the DOA4 lobby system when the netcode is far more important. Yes, online play is not competitive, but without solid netcode, the game will have a much harder time generating a decent competitive scene.

And if people disagree with me and we end up getting a game very similar to the Alpha demo, there will be no wrath, and I certainly won't ban anyone (from what I have no clue)... I'll just be playing SC5, VF5: FS, TTT2 and whatever else... leaving the 15-man DOA tournaments to fend for themselves.

More importantly, why is he even questioning if the folks here want a healthy tournament scene?

I think it's been made very clear to everyone who visited that's what the site's priority is... but whatever.

Manny doesn't want one. And many of the people here seem to share his thought process. Fix the little things so DOA still plays like all the previous games. Make it revolve around guessing, just lessen the guessing slightly. That won't do...
 

Matt Ponton

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You're kind of missing the point. As of the Alpha build, DOA5 is not tournament ready. It's not even at the level of UMvC3, which people don't find great, but at least acceptable. You also have to factor in that MvC2 had a huge tournament scene, whereas DOA has never had a substantial tournament scene.

While a solid game does not guarantee a tournament scene, if the proper changes are not made, the game itself will guarantee the lack of a tournament scene.

No, I'm not missing the point, you're missing mine: Being a "competitive" worthy game does not provide a tournament scene.

Even if the game isn't up to your standards, you can have a 'tournament scene' if enough people want to plunk down the fees to do so. Hell, at NEC XI we had a 50 man coin-flip tournament where it literally was a the best 2 out of 3 coin flip calls. It's just a matter of getting enough people who share interest in the game even with it's pros/cons.

Even with all that said, if you read my original post I did state the following:

Granted, the difficulty in getting more players is affected by how the system of the game is built, and who it appeals to.

If you need me to further explain that it's quite simple that the features the game has helps sway decisions on the entrants to said tournament scene. Depending on who the advertised players are depends on what features they would require in order to make said decision.

For you and most players already in a competitive fighting game scene, the DOA5 alpha demo does not feature enough for you to put down your money for a tournament. For others, it might be enough, it might not. It's up to the community that grows out of that game to really decide and see how it fits into the larger Fighting Game Community.
 

Awesmic

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
No...

My issue is more along the lines of people forgetting the big picture (in terms of the competitive scene). People are arguing over 3-point hold and 4-point hold, but the issue is holding in stun. The hold system could be identical to DOA4 (in terms of frame data), but if you can't hold during a stun, it would drastically change the game.

People are talking about the visual aspects of the DOA4 lobby system when the netcode is far more important. Yes, online play is not competitive, but without solid netcode, the game will have a much harder time generating a decent competitive scene.

And if people disagree with me and we end up getting a game very similar to the Alpha demo, there will be no wrath, and I certainly won't ban anyone (from what I have no clue)... I'll just be playing SC5, VF5: FS, TTT2 and whatever else... leaving the 15-man DOA tournaments to fend for themselves.
So no holds in stun, no interactive lobby along the lines of DOA4 to screw up the netcode, everyone's a happy camper. What about character individuality? Offensive holds to grappler classes? Special evasive properties for stance characters? Frame advantage and guaranteed situations? Would these be considered minor concerns?
.
Oh, and about the ban part, I know you're not admin yet, but you have connections. You could make it happen if you wanted to.
 
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