DOA5 and Sexualization: Too Much?

[werewolfgold]

It is actually YOU that are removing any other depth of the characters by stating that they exist "only to be gazed upon and looked at with a lustful eye."

The women do indeed have personalities. But, we as consumers are not the ones choosing to trot the ladies out in maid outfits, nurse outfits, towels, gym clothes, bunny outfits, "naughty" this, "naughty" that. That gets to be pretty reductive after a while. That's them removing the depth. Sexy is fine. Repeated fetish outfits are something else. That's not empowerment. Like Hayabusiness said, that's cheap, Japanese porn level. Yeah, people'll buy it, but horny people will buy anything. I wanna raise the standards just a tad. Look at the new fan Kasumi outfit. Designed by a woman. Sexy, revealing, there was frickin' effort put into it.

I don't complain to COD developers about the airport scene that depicts Russians as murderers, or to every modern shooter that has Russians as the antagonist. I may love the mechanics of the game but not some of the story decisions. Do I bitch about it so that I may get my way? Of course not.

Honestly, why don't you? It doesn't get changed if people don't say anything about it. Consumers can influence businesses by voicing their opinion in large numbers. Not even just with money.

If you want to complain about real objectification of women, go do some ACTUAL activism for the women in middle Eastern countries.

Now, now. I'm sure people can do both. lol

You do not know that these characters "normalize" their portrayal of women. Just like violence. Video games do not make people violent. Studies time and time again have supported this claim. So if games don't make you violent, why do they make you a misogynist?

*puts on sociology hat*
Ideas. This world deals in ideas. Where do we get our ideas from? Everywhere. Sometimes, we get ideas that we don't even want. Ever feel sorry for a fictional character? Why? The character doesn't exist. Ever see someone lose sleep over a scary movie? But, it's not real. That doesn't matter. The brain doesn't care. The human brain is weak sauce. Ever quote something from your favorite character in a movie? Hell, ever wanted to be someone from a movie? You might even unconsciously modify your behavior just a little just to fit your role model. But you're too old and set in your ways for that to affect you and you know fantasy from reality, right? Are you sure? It can seep into your brain, man, Even if so, do you think everyone is on your level?

Video games affect you. Just like everything else. They do affect aggression levels in the interim. Studies do show that. It may subside. But, people may end up needing that dopamine fix. It depends on what ideas are reinforced in that individual. And that's why we have to be careful about the things we promote and reinforce, even things with unfortunate implications. Hell, even just by omission. You ever hear people say that black people aren't supposed to like metal music and white people aren't supposed to rap? I bet you that would change over time if we showed people differently. Now, we can't go all 1984 on everybody and start controlling all information, but we can at least talk about what our values are, why we have them, and if the things we're doing may not be that great in the long run.

I would hope that Mortal Kombat, Doom, and Call of Duty would not turn you into a mass murderer. That is very, very drastic and kind of unlikely. But, I guarantee you that ideas, such as those held about women, or how the images around you treat women, are a significantly lower bar of entry into your brain. Not talking about everyone going out and becoming uncontrollable date rapists. But, even that is also just a series of ideas about how the world works piled on top of each other in one individual. And we get ideas from everyone and everywhere. You don't think that the excess of military shooting games have affected what the general populace thinks about the realities of the military? There's a reason why heavier games like Spec Ops: The Line create such a buzz when they happen.
*takes off sociology hat*

...and the whole fantasy aspect, that is the point. If it's not the point then we can call into question ANY and EVERY video game for ANY and EVERY unreal portrayal - AKA my Call of Duty example.

We do call it out if it starts to become excessive. You don't think people have commented on how often we revel in justified and civilized white people going in to kill all the evil brown/tribal people?

Had a blast reading this. But come on, now.. women themselves are becoming the BIGGEST perpetrators of sexualization and objectification in media these days. I can't even scroll down my Facebook wall for a day without some girl I may or may not know showing off their cleavage or their thong showing above their yoga pants. Magazines, Social Media sites, posters, you name it. And these women have a choice in this matter and it's all over and still being produced today; by women. Where's the movement to stop a real world blight like that?

Well, like Reverence said, there are "sex-positive" and "sex-negative" feminists. Even people who supposedly have women's best interests in mind are trying to figure out which is the best way to go. For example, are voluntary sex workers (adult film, prostitutes, etc.) oppressed? Liberated and in total control of their sexuality? Are they liberated yet still screwing it up for some women who don't want to be viewed only as sexual beings? Are they screwing it up for the less-than-willing and trafficked workers? It's complicated, yo. Far too heavy for this thread, so I'mma back off.

I'm gonna buy all the sexy female DLCs so that Team Ninja will make money and churn out even more sexy DLCs for the ladies so it'll piss all the easily offended prissy people around here.

I SHALL DROWN ANYONE WHO STANDS IN THE WAY OF DECENT COSTUMES IN HELLFIRE. I mean, you're free to be an ass--I mean, to do what you want, good sir...

And, lol @ chenogasm. If you really want to know @Yurlungur , it's cheongsam. But, maybe we can make "chenogasm" the new "kreygasm". lol

 

[PhoenixVFIRE]

It's sexual objectification because the characters aren't real people making real choices, they are made by people(men) for people(men), therefore they're nothing but objects of sexual gratification.

Whether girls like the characters or not doesn't change it's objectification, simple as that.

 

[Number 13]

Wait what? So if a woman was involved in the development process then that is OK? Well I guess SG gets a pass then with that logic.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

It's sexual objectification because the characters aren't real people making real choices, they are made by people(men) for people(men), therefore they're nothing but objects of sexual gratification.

Whether girls like the characters or not doesn't change it's objectification, simple as that.

But I and others don't see them as sexual objects, but I do for Vega from Street Fighter, so that right there is shooting your point in the foot.

 

[Yurlungur]

I just want pants

 

[werewolfgold]

Wait what? So if a woman was involved in the development process then that is OK? Well I guess SG gets a pass then with that logic.

It's not a get-out-of-jail free card or anything. But, it does add more to the conversation than it just being men creating vapid fantasies for other men to partake in. Women do have agency and should be able to speak up and do what's right for them. A bunch of "men" deciding that they are being oppressed by something when "they" don't actually feel that way is still bad.

It is possible to do things that aren't in your (or your "designated group's") best interest, theoretically. So, being a woman who is fine with the "over-"sexualization of women is something, but not everything however.

And Skullgirls is indeed heavy on the jiggling. But, it has various designs that are quite low on the sexual pandering front. Painweel, Peacock, Umbrella, Marie, Ms. Fortune (to an extent), Squigly (to an extent), Double (eugh), etc.

But, you know..., Big Band exists so really the game should just be rated AO. lol

 

[Yurlungur]

I
But, you know..., Big Band exists so really the game should just be rated AO. lol

sir, nobody is asking you to blow on the clarinet
besides beowulf's idol is move sexual then bb

 

[kfad]

Everyone likes boobs and any person (woman or man) that says they don't are lying BUUUUT my personal beef with TN is that there is straight up NO CREATIVITY ANYMORE! I think it's cool to have a super-mega-skimpy costume in every now and then (assuming it fits well with the characters....Helena is not Christie! Stop trying to make that a thing, TN!) but I'd buy more DLC if it was more imaginative. Previous DOA games proved you could have creative costumes that weren't super conservative! I know I'm not the only one here thinking this (I've heard plenty of guys say this in RL) but sometimes its nice to have costumes that leave things to your imagination, that reveal just enough to keep you saying "I wonder what's under that!" despite you already knowing about their pixilated goods.

And I'll admit I'm a cosplayer, and as a cosplayer I would love to dress as one of the women from the series but it would be nice to have a challenge making it other than figuring out how to make ribbon cover my bits just right! LOL but aside from that nothing is very specific to any one character anymore (in terms of DLC) We have costumes that scream "Oh! man that's Leifang" or "That has to be Kasumi!" but you can't say that with the DLC and even some Character specific costumes... if I were to wear most of those costumes no one would really know who you are or if you're even cosplaying LMAO

And then there's the fact that TN is just pulling costumes out of their ass with no regards for the characters! I mentioned previously Helena and Christie; TN is constantly trying to make Helena wear things that are better suited for Christie making her once developed character personality unravel and kinda just make her (and other characters) not really "there" anymore. They no longer think about the characters and just kinda make blah costumes and put them on every character with slightly different variations of it.

TLR......
I like boobs like everyone else but for the love of character development and artistic freedom please stop pulling shit out of your ass and actually put some effort and love back into the game you built! Make stuff that is interesting & character specific. STUFF WORTH PAYING FOR!

 

[His Reverence]

@werewolfgold I will keep this one short. I can't be bothered to do a post as long as the previous.

Few things:
When I buy the DLCs (and I bought them all,) I never had a hard-on. Even if I did, that would not make the game sexist. That would be nature at work. This game is NOT a social or political statement. It is pure entertainment with no intrinsic meaning. Just like any other form of media that caters to men's or women's sexualities.

Also, I minored in Sociology in College. While I agree that anything can influence anyone, the degree for games is so minute that it is irrelevant to the conversation. Everything has different degrees to which it influences an individual, and it is mostly based on other predispositions. Columbine, for example - was caused by two very troubled and mentally ill teens. They played shooters and listened to Rammstein and Marilyn Manson. All of those things were blamed by the ignorant populace, where as hundreds of thousands (if not millions) had indulged in those same forms of media and had not carried out a mass shooting. Just because games are a factor does not mean they are in any way significant.

In regards to doing things in a group's best interest, sure. Is this one of those cases? I am pretty sure that someone like @Malibu understands whats best for HER and her sexuality. It is not anyone's place to imply otherwise.

Now, when it comes to agency, again: DOA is a product with a target demographic. Fifty Shades of Grey has a target demographic. Barby and GIJoe have a target demographic. The target demographic is inherently the majority, therefore, they make the decisions.

If people have an issue with this, I recommend creating your own product that appeals to you. The market is a free opportunist one. Anyone has the potential to break into the market - if of course they are willing to take risks. If you aren't, well...sad day for you. The creator has the ability to create whatever game or other piece of art they want.

Voluntary sex workers are just that - voluntary. The discussion ends as soon as they have a choice. I had a pornstar at my work that was ecstatic about what she does. Its not up to me or anyone else to tell her how to lead her life. To have A CHOICE is liberation. To be forced into living the 3rd wave, modern feminist idiology removes that choice.

"We know what's best for women. Better than they know what's best for themselves." This is the vibe I am getting from many posts here.

Women are adults. They are not children who need protection from the oh-so-scary world. They make their own decisions and have their own opportunities to buy or make whatever product they desire, including books like 50 Shades.

As men should not control women's sexuality, a woman can't control a man's. Such is the real world. DOA cater's to a man's sexuality and many women enjoy the game as well. That is it. The conversation ends here.

Infantile and overly sensitive people cannot censor or manipulate the world. When they try, I say "Fuck you." I say this because, when it succeeds, it brings us closer to cultural Marxism. Works of art are protected under our 1st amendment. It is our fundamental right. No one has the right to silence that but they do have the right to create what they desire.

People's rights DO NOT END where other people's feelings begin.

Post ended up bring a little longer than I had anticipated.

 

[PhoenixVFIRE]

But I and others don't see them as sexual objects, but I do for Vega from Street Fighter, so that right there is shooting your point in the foot.

Whether you do or don't is irrelevant tbh... I don't see them that way, but it doesn't negate the objectification overall.

 

[Yurlungur]

The issue with the dlc which i'll explain it in another term

I enjoy walking into a clothing store and purchasing things from this store. This store has a bit of racy clothing but the racy clothing is still nice to look at even if you wouldn't wear some of it. You notice after a while people coming and buying the racier clothing while you're still shopping for the most tasteful stuff at the store. Sooner or later the tasteful stuff stops coming in and the racier stuff is starting to look very boring and generic. Later you stop finding clothes that actually fit you but since you did find a few nice articles of clothing you still want to look at the store and hope you find nice stuff.

Each week you get more and more disappointed because they either discontinued your size(ie: character) or the clothing from the store is getting more and more disappointing. While you don't want the store to go bankrupt, you don't want to purchase these items cause they don't suit you. You have been a valued customer for that store for a while and you start to complain that you dislike the fact that you're not getting anything nice there except the odd once in a while thing especially since you've been shopping there for a long amount of time.

People in the store then have the nerve to go up to you and tell you that you have absolutely no fashion sense and that this is how the store has always been when it's hasn't especially since you'd like a nice outfit instead of the stacks of maid outfits and literally the huge line of swimsuit collections they have when it's not even summer.

The store no longer has anything nice that it sells other then the odd halloween costume and you personally don't want to shop there. Other people walk in and criticize you for shopping there especially when they weren't around for when the store had nicer things and gotten itself it's bad reputation for selling this style of stuff.

You personally get fed up until a friend simply tells you of some clothes and get annoyed they lost their quality and are now trying to sell as many things as possible without thought to it.

 

[His Reverence]

@Yurlungur I guess it would be time for you to shop at a different store. lol

Invest your money into a store that does serve you. You are right, in that situation it does suck to get forgotten but business is business.

Support the store that supports you. Simple.

 

[Yurlungur]

@Yurlungur I guess it would be time for you to shop at a different store. lol

Invest your money into a store that does serve you. You are right, in that situation it does suck to get forgotten but business is business.

Support the store that supports you. Simple.

I like to think the statement is a little more grey then purely black and white. The store does still want to support me on a few things but then again business says that they need to sell the other stuff people want. Lately they have a very good line coming out in order to satisfy customers like me(which they do on the rare occasion)

But the main issue which it all boils back too no matter how many nice clothing articles are going to come in or you do have to find through the large amount of "sexy" costumes and bikinis is that i'm shopping at this store specifically which in turn has a bad image and isn't fully respected. I personally don't want to look bad because i shop at this store but then again i have products from here so no matter what i'm associated with it.

If a nicer batch of clothing is outside and people walk out and view things they might want to walk in and go "yeah, that's store is pretty ok". "I heard they had a contest to design this stuff and these designs look very cool". It will help bring back the store to being credible which shoppers like me and possibly the other shoppers who do enjoy the maid outfits want.

Sorry, i'm really shit at explain things.

 

[Aerospark]

I just want pants

remember when our favs got good DLC outfits

 

[werewolfgold]

Infantile and overly sensitive people cannot censor or manipulate the world. When they try, I say "Fuck you." I say this because, when it succeeds, it brings us closer to cultural Marxism. Works of art are protected under our 1st amendment. It is our fundamental right. No one has the right to silence that but they do have the right to create what they desire.

People's rights DO NOT END where other people's feelings begin.

Oh, lawd. This dude invoking Marxism. It's all downhill from here. lol

Anyway, I'm not talking about things as drastic as shooting sprees. Something like that clearly can't be solved merely by taking Marilyn Manson off the air. But, in the realm of media, even though one or two things by themselves probably aren't going to make anyone do anything, it all just becomes death by 1000 cuts eventually. You have the multibillion dollar advertisement industry spending money on things that people'll glance at once or 30 second TV spots, and video games that people can log hours upon hours of interactive play into don't do anything significant? Really? When added to all the other media that people consume? It all builds up. There are responsibilities when you choose to make something, both to yourself and to the public.

It would be great if people could just do whatever the hell their heart desired, but there is always something bigger to consider. Just like voluntary sex workers have to, sometimes, worry about what the people at-large think about their industry and how any improprieties makes them look by choosing to be a part of it. I'm not going to pretend I know what's best for anybody, though. That's why I like to hear discussion. But, I don't wanna talk sex workers anymore. I'm gonna try to slowly weed that back out of the conversation as I probably shouldn't have brought it in in the first place. lol

It's not always going to be "I can make whatever I want and if you have a problem with any part of it, piss off". No one would be able to support or like any product because nothing is perfect. Hell, what's the point of even asking for feedback or interfacing with the public. NOPE. YOU CAN'T COMPLAIN ABOUT NUTHIN'! YOU DON'T LIKE IT? THERE'S THE DOOR. I DON'T NEED YO' MONEY! lol

You're right. We don't want things to lead to where no one can make anything without it passing some sort of divine arbiter of all things proper because something by itself likely won't wreak extreme havoc. But, questioning creative decisions is something that is always going to be happening, both on heavy issues and trivial issues. There's no stopping it. The world is always being manipulated by somebody in myriad small ways. If you have good reasons for the choices you made, then stand your ground and defend them. If your reasons suck, then welp, maybe it's time to reevaluate.

All I know is, people are about to be singing Lou Rawls to Team Ninja pretty soon if they don't start getting their act together...

Spoiler

They're gonna miss my lovin'...

Yeah, the final option is going to be shopping at another store. I just think that there could be a few steps before that. But, maybe the crazy idea of unique, interesting outfits that aren't necessarily strips of cloth for everyone in the cast is too radical of a proposition for some other money-paying fans.

 

[His Reverence]

I invoke Marxism because I was born in the Soviet Union and lived for a huge chunk of my life in a former Soviet state.

I know the consequences of cultural Marxism and it's very disappointing to see it all happen here, slowly but surely.

In terms of 1000 cuts, what would you do? You would censor the world from us irresponsible children?

...have you actually seen research on the effects of games? You certainly are making a plethora of assertions without any empirical evidence. Show me empirical data and THEN make that assertion.

As a consumer, you can give feedback. Of course. That being said, when something moronic is spouted like "this game is sexist" or "games perpetuate sexism" or "change this game!" - statements like this will incur criticism FROM the target demographic of the product.

My question to you is, how would you fix all of this? Your stance is very clear. What is your goal for DOA?

 

[werewolfgold]

No, I would not censor the world from you irresponsible children. But, yes, you children are very, very irresponsible.

My assertion is that media affects the world we live in in both small and large ways. Do you not think this is true? Video games, books, TV, radio, all of it. Do I really have to break out the body image articles and stuff? I dunno if anyone's gonna actually read them. Let's just do this. Half the stuff is behind paywalls, though.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=media and body image
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=media and sexist attitudes

My goal for DOA. I want it to not rely on "sexualization" quite as much as it does because doing so gives off the air of the game having nothing of substance, when it does. I want the characters to seem varied with personality, which becomes threatened when everyone just becomes fetish dolls. Do I want them to remove all sex appeal? No. But, I think that if you look at the media sections of the websites for say, DOA4, DOAD, and then DOA5U, something definitely looks off. I want a little more moderation because the consensus seems to always be that DOA is good for nothing except ogling at boobs and that stigma isn't going away. If there were to be DLC, there would be outfits that at least seem to fit the characters, and everyone would be included as much as possible, male characters and female characters. That way fans wouldn't feel like they are getting shafted or that favorites are being played. Look at Street Fighter 4 for example. Every time a costume pack happens, it's for everybody. Some are sexy, some aren't. It doesn't have to always be about that. As long as the outfits are cool and had effort put into them. Blazblue, a game with TONS of fanservice, isn't all like, "Arakune isn't as popular as Litchi, Noel, and Bullet. Therefore, we'll just skip over giving him extra colors." NO. Those fans still exist and deserve not to be cheated.

Now, if the creators are fine with the way things are, fine. It's their show. But, I think that there is a way to keep things sexy without it being laughable and facepalm worthy. I think they would get more fans if it wasn't so facepalm worthy. However, I'm sure that someone somewhere would go all "NO MORE BOOBS ONLY BEING COVERED WITH SUSPENDERS!!?!?" and flip a table. There is no perfect solution. I'm not that naive.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

Whether you do or don't is irrelevant tbh... I don't see them that way, but it doesn't negate the objectification overall.

Gonna add this in for the night:
Objectification is something that you can add in for everyone and everything. It may be a noun but Objectify sure isn't which is virtually what most of this argument hinges upon. Hell, the fact that there is people in this topic who see otherwise mean it's not as clear cut as you say it is.

As for whether I do or not, so the "objectification" of the female fighters in other games matters little now? Because Soul Calibur has gotten WORSE with every iteration EXCEPT SCV and that was more because it had lots of underage women in the game. Or how about Street Fighter? Don't tell me that somehow Cammy's and Chun-Li's outfits somehow make sense and isn't pure fanservice, dear god, lets not forget Sakura's stupid reason for continuing to wear her school uniform? Hell, I can continue this all day but I won't because it's all SUBJECTIVE.

And we have more than enough proof that it's not the fanservice that's the game's major issue(My ass when Capcom has been going ham on it and Tekken and Soul Calibur has been on that train for years) nor has it gone too far at any time considering that the outfits are more becoming too common than anything else.

 

[werewolfgold]

We all await the Chun-Li and Sakura gravure videos.

Spoiler

You see, I say that as a joke. But, knowing my luck, it's going to happen now...

 

[Hayabusiness]

And we have more than enough proof that it's not the fanservice that's the game's major issue(My ass when Capcom has been going ham on it and Tekken and Soul Calibur has been on that train for years) nor has it gone too far at any time considering that the outfits are more becoming too common than anything else.

My hand slipped.

Spoiler

Team NINJA: Everybody, look: Dead Or Alive 5: LAST ROUND!
... yeah guys, we're gonna bring a better experience, we're gonna fix and make the game more awesome! Let us show you...

DOA fans: Better online play?! Gameplay additions?! New moves?! Changed moves?! What TN, what?!

Team NINJA: New stages...

DOA fans: *gasp* aaand???

Team NINJA: ... and TEH SOFT ENGINE!!111!!11 LOOK AT DEM TIDDIES!!!1 Play the demo and lose on purpose to truly grasp the power of BOOBIES!!
And don't forget! This is a fighting game, not an eroge!!! ; ))))) OOooh--! And while we're at it, have some more sexy DLC. Did we mention LR is also gonna have the long awaited MARIE ROSE GRAVURE VIDEO?? ; )))))) Don't worry guyyyys, she's eighteeeeen! OOOOh, and be prepared for the new girl, for she'll be the "biggest"!!
... ah wait, who is Lisa again...

DOA fans type A: Awesome, but what abut the gameplay, the characters, etc?

DOA fans type B: notto disu shitto agen.

DOA casual: ooh, boobs. Good. That's the best thing the game has to offer anyway!

Stranger to DOA 1: wtf lol, DOA is a shite gaem, with horrid mechanics! And it wants to sell with bewbs and stupid japanese fetish girl characters, lololol! GAMEPLAY COMES FIRST!!! What a game for scrubs...
ENJOY UR FAGY GAME YOU BASEMENT LOSUR LOL!! ... hmmm, Chun Li's thighs...

Stranger to DOA 2: MUH SOGGY KNEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DOA fans type A: it's not what it seems, guys! Stop judging us! Try the game! You're hypocrit, Tekken and SF do the same things in the same ways! Bah! I don't need your approval anyway...

DOA fan who plays a male character: but what about the guys?

DOA fans type B: notto disu shitto agen.

Team NINJA: does anyone want any BUNNY OUTFITSSSS????? ; ))))