DOA5 E3 Build: The Good, Bad and Ugly

[DR2K]

I'd rather for the sake of diversity have characters that don't have strong CB/don't have to rely on them. As you mentioned Christie has a lot going for her outside of CB, it's just a matter of possibly making her tools better(or more advanced players, preferablly character specialists) outside of CB.

 

[Rikuto]

I disagree with the on block thing. Every game on earth has throw punishable moves on block. Thats normal.

There is nothing opinionated to "disagree" with here.

First, In other games "throw" punishment can be broken. That leaves true punishment to strikes, which require the person be even more unsafe.

Second, the point was that too many moves in DOA are throw punishable on block. Go through VF and you'll see there are only a handful of moves on most characters that are really truly unsafe to the point they can be punished readily. This makes it feel like finishing anything is a bad idea when you hop over to DOA.

As for throw punishable on hit, ok THAT is deffinately retarded and needs to be fixed, to a degree.
However, I do believe that the move sets were designed to make certain moves safer on stun. Meaning, you cant just throw out any move you like any time. Some moves are safe on normal hit and others on stun (as in the kasumi example). I think this is fine. hell even SF4 has moves that are punishable on hit in certain match ups.

And it's dumb there, too. You think people don't complain about it?

Yes, but you are talking about guessing in defense, meaning the string delays are a good offensive tool. So where's the problem? I want to screw with my defending opponent and make them react incorrectly so I can punish them.

I already explained what is wrong with this... but you have hit level mixups, throws/OH's, guard breaks, frame advantage and sidestepping for this very reason. To create a meta-game. To deceive your opponent into picking a poor option strategically and paying for it. We can't even get to those more intricate metagames because the delayed strings throws a massive layer over everything before they can even be reached.

It also is telling the player that his reflexes are a worthless skill in this game and should never come into play. Gamers don't like to hear that. Fighting gamers especially.

A simple example would be conditioning the opponent by going for PPK with Ayane then going for a throw. The second time I would do PPK and delay the last K after to bait out a strike reation against my possible throw attempt. In a sense it would work as a frame trap. I dont see how this is bad.

If you're on the defensive then I want to frustrate you and make you guess more. Thats the whole point of being on the defensive!

Then do it with a known frame advantage attack, a guard break, a sidestep, a backdash, hit level mixup, or something logical. You shouldn't be able to turn every single attack in the game into an additional guess. That's stupid.

 

[AKNova7]

I do not disagree with that, but if DOA5 is left how it is now, there's very little chance it will have a competitive life after this year. I've heard rumors that it will be featured at MLG and IPL, and if it's included in those two events there's a chance Evo will pick it up... but if no one shows up, it won't matter. And with the game as it is now, I doubt you'll see much expansion beyond the current bunch of tournament players (which isn't enough).

Before I continue: All this is said with all due respect, as I'm new, and isn't meant personal, or an insult in any way. It's just direct is all.

DOA isn't accepted because it's different. People like guaranteed, no effort combos, hilariously overpowered characters, and not playing the game their trying to play, even if they're playing the game. There's a higher level of awareness needed in DOA, and most people don't like that. Personally, I think the way there's trying to make mechanics you can't counter out if is wrong, especially how much holds got nerfed in this iteration of the game. Seriously, what are all you guys worried about in terms of being held mid-combo? Taking the small amount of damage (compared to DOA4) that most counter holds do? Your opponent actually having to be somewhat precise in countering it? Holds got nerfed, and you want offense to be even blinder by making 20% less stuns holdable?

If they took it down 20% from now, I almost believe they'd have to remove about half the moves that stun from the game. Because on CH/HCB, the amount of stuns in this game is hilariously high.

Fully guaranteed combos aren't DOA, and never really were. And that's a good thing, considering how lackluster the movement was for much of the series. As far as I'm concerned, if people want guaranteed combos, they should go play Virtua Fighter, Soul Calibur, or Tekken. DOA5 shouldn't be any more offensively powerful than it already is. They already changed how the hold system works, which apparently you dislike holds in general, even though switching to 4 point hold got it nerfed again, and they already do very little damage in this build compared to the last, which I consider an improvement. We don't need any more offensive buffs. If people don't like this game because it's balanced in terms of fighting game mechanics instead of combo-heavy, so be it. We shouldn't sell out.

But, my real question is, if you don't like String Delays, Counter Holds, and Free Canceling, what draws you to Dead or Alive? These three things are the heart of the game, and the mechanics that make it different from the fighting games around it. Without these things, what would separate DOA from every other fighting game out there not including the stages?

 

[Allan Paris]

DOA4 is the least DOA I ever played and I am not familiar with alot of things with it due to it being a shit fest.

Ok, something is not adding up. Since you've been active here. You have advocated that you love the way DOA4 plays and how the game only needs minor tweaks for it to be better. Just recently have you seen light that the game is terrible, welcome to the club. So, at this point in time, if I may ask, what hell are you basing your arguments off of? If DOA4 is such a shit fest (which is true) what version of DOA should it be like? All of the other ones were great in comparison to 4. With your posts you can't be referring to the good DOAs that most of us experienced. You either want it to play like DOA4, which most of your posts linger around that idea, indirectly. Or You want a game that does not grant random freelance play all day every day?

And not every move in the game is throw punishable on block.

Yeah, not EVERY move, that's an over exaggeration. 90% of them on the other hand is not an over exaggeration.

 

[AKNova7]

Second, the point was that too many moves in DOA are throw punishable on block. Go through VF and you'll see there are only a handful of moves on most characters that are really truly unsafe to the point they can be punished readily. This makes it feel like finishing anything is a bad idea when you hop over to DOA.

Virtua Fighter is a really bad example. In that game, there are way too many moves that are safe. Quite honestly, I think free canceling should be encouraged. Only time you should finish strings is when you can land the last part on CH.

 

[Rikuto]

Those things are not the heart of the game. Those things are what hinder the game.

The heart of the game is the ease of control, insane level design and environmental destructability which lets a newbie pick up the game and do cool shit in a way thats easy to understand, but can be very strategic on a higher level of play.

Counters are a part of that, sure, but even the original game did not have counters as a part of the game in stun. in doa 2 and doa 3, you only have to initiate the stun and go straight to a launch... it was no different in odds than how Bayman is playing now with the unholdable sitdown stun into critical burst. In fact holding in stun only became important in DOA 4, the worst game in the series.

Some people seem to forget this.

None of these things are under any kind of threat with what we are proposing though. DOA would remain DOA, just not DOA 4.

Virtua Fighter is a really bad example. In that game, there are way too many moves that are safe. Quite honestly, I think free canceling should be encouraged. Only time you should finish strings is when you can land the last part on CH.

In soul calibur I'm not doing anything that is unsafe either, and I've more than enough ways of killing an opponent very fast if he is playing poorly.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

There is nothing opinionated to "disagree" with here.

First, In other games "throw" punishment can be broken. That leaves true punishment to strikes, which require the person be even more unsafe.

Second, the point was that too many moves in DOA are throw punishable on block. Go through VF and you'll see there are only a handful of moves on most characters that are really truly unsafe to the point they can be punished readily. This makes it feel like finishing anything is a bad idea when you hop over to DOA..

This is Incorrect for many games, including SF4 and KOF were if you get thrown on recovery on a blocked move you CANNOT tech out of it.

As for the moves being throwable on block, a solution is the other problem you stated, DELAYABLE STRINGS. You screw with the opponent and make them pay for it.

I already explained what is wrong with this... but you have hit level mixups, throws/OH's, guard breaks, frame advantage and sidestepping for this very reason. To create a meta-game. To deceive your opponent into picking a poor option strategically and paying for it. We can't even get to those more intricate metagames because the delayed strings throws a massive layer over everything before they can even be reached.

There is a place for every type of meta game. There are single move attacks and there are strings. delaying strings simply adds an extra offensive layer to all this.

It also is telling the player that his reflexes are a worthless skill in this game and should never come into play. Gamers don't like to hear that. Fighting gamers especially..

Not worthless, but incorrect. They should learn to HOLD and HOLD at the right time.

I said this before in the past, you don't seem like you want to play DOA, at least not a shit version of DOA like DOA4 and on that we can all agree. But, I honestly think the current changes to the system really make it stand out. I wouldn't want to take away more from it.

 

[DR2K]

But, my real question is, if you don't like String Delays, Counter Holds, and Free Canceling, what draws you to Dead or Alive? These three things are the heart of the game, and the mechanics that make it different from the fighting games around it. Without these things, what would separate DOA from every other fighting game out there not including the stages?

A fighting game is definied by the sum of its parts, not a few parts being incredibly over powered and breaking other mechanics.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Ok, something is not adding up. Since you've been active here. You have advocated that you love the way DOA4 plays and how the game only needs minor tweaks for it to be better.

When did I say I loved DOA4? EVER?
I may have liked the move sets and the ideas of stages (particularly fences and stairs)

But, I never liked it for all the reasons everyone else hated it.

I simply stated that after not playing it for a good 4-5 years, and after playing the DOA5 demo, that i realized how even MORE crap it was than I had previously remembered it to be.

 

[Allan Paris]

wow. i'm done.

 

[Rikuto]

This is Incorrect for many games, including SF4 and KOF were if you get thrown on recovery on a blocked move you CANNOT tech out of it.

As for the moves being throwable on block, a solution is the other problem you stated, DELAYABLE STRINGS. You screw with the opponent and make them pay for it.

Why are you talking about 2D games? They play 100% differently. In 3D games, this is not how things work because of how very differently you have to treat spacing and whiff punishment.

There is a place for every type of meta game. There are single move attacks and there are strings. delaying strings simply adds an extra offensive layer to all this.

Why should I use an unsafe single move attack when I can use a string with frame advantage and an additional layer of "delayable" offense? There is no incentive, the string is better every time because it's more likely to deceive my opponent and score that counter-hit. See, you just broke the game. Even if the string was disadvantage it would still be a better option because of that extra layer. You can't do that to a competitive fighting game.

Not worthless, but incorrect. They should learn to HOLD and HOLD at the right time.

I said this before in the past, you don't seem like you want to play DOA, at least not a shit version of DOA like DOA4. But, I honestly think the current changes to the system really make it stand out. I wouldn't want to take away more from it.

I want to play DOA. I recognize that DOA has been made many times in many different forms, two of which would actually combine to create the very game I am advocating for (which is DOA++ and DOA 3).

What you are advocating for is basically just DOA 4 with slightly trimmed down counter damage. Whelp, we like different things and since DOA 4 bombed miserably, I'd say I've got the right on this one.

 

[AKNova7]

Counters are a part of that, sure, but even the original game did not have counters as a part of the game in stun. in doa 2 and doa 3, you only have to initiate the stun and go straight to a launch... it was no different in odds than how Bayman is playing now with the unholdable sitdown stun into critical burst. In fact holding in stun only became important in DOA 4, the worst game in the series.

While DOA 4 is undeniably the worst game in the series, countering out of stun added something that other games didn't have. If you've seen videos of some of the best of the best doing their thing, even with the small damage the game does in DOA5, if they took out escaping from stun altogether, they would need to keep the damage way down, add better defensive options, or have way less stuns, as far as I'm concerned. DOA should not be just another offensive fighter, the defensive depth of the game should definitely be just as strong as it's offensive depth. Now, sure, there are better ways to do so than being able to counter out of stuns, but with all the hate to the counter system, making it not only weaker, but more difficult to pull off, then more difficult to pull off in most situations.

Personally, instead of having un-holdable stuns, I'd think a better idea would be to limit the amount of times someone can attempt to counter out of a combo. For example: Unholdable stuns could be acheived by smacking your opponent in the middle of an attempt to counter out of your combo. That way, similar to 2D fighters, the game would grant you a reset. In that manner, you could attempt to counter out of a combo, but the risk you take is taking more damage. Now, personally, I don't like this idea, because, personally, I think the reason they made it so you can hold out of stun, is because being able to get a stun state in DOA is different, because on HCB, for example, you can get stun on moves that aren't even the end of strings, adding even more guessing to the defensive player than if someone hits you with a launcher, then you know said launcher is unsafe, for example.

As long as stuns in general exist like they do in DOA, it can't be balanced like every other fighting game. If it was, offense would reign just as supreme as defensive holds did in DOA4. And that would make the game unfun. Personally, I'm a huge DOA3 advocate. Just saying.

In soul calibur I'm not doing anything that is unsafe either, and I've more than enough ways of killing an opponent very fast if he is playing poorly.

There's more than enough ways to kill an opponent very fast even if he's playing very well. But, it depends on what character you play in that game, some are just innately unsafe in that game. The problem with Calibur is that it lets you use nothing but safe moves even with characters that are balanced on the fact that they're unsafe, because the moves they have that are safe are so good anyway.

 

[StickyStaines]

Are throws the only moves in DoA that have this insane startup to punish 90% of the moves? If thats the case, aren't throws the problem?

 

[Skilletor]

Are throws the only moves in DoA that have this insane startup to punish 90% of the moves? If thats the case, aren't throws the problem?

No, the frame data which does not allow punishing with attacks is the problem.

 

[Raansu]

Before I continue: All this is said with all due respect, as I'm new, and isn't meant personal, or an insult in any way. It's just direct is all.

DOA isn't accepted because it's different. People like guaranteed, no effort combos, hilariously overpowered characters, and not playing the game their trying to play, even if they're playing the game. There's a higher level of awareness needed in DOA, and most people don't like that. Personally, I think the way there's trying to make mechanics you can't counter out if is wrong, especially how much holds got nerfed in this iteration of the game. Seriously, what are all you guys worried about in terms of being held mid-combo? Taking the small amount of damage (compared to DOA4) that most counter holds do? Your opponent actually having to be somewhat precise in countering it? Holds got nerfed, and you want offense to be even blinder by making 20% less stuns holdable?

If they took it down 20% from now, I almost believe they'd have to remove about half the moves that stun from the game. Because on CH/HCB, the amount of stuns in this game is hilariously high.

Fully guaranteed combos aren't DOA, and never really were. And that's a good thing, considering how lackluster the movement was for much of the series. As far as I'm concerned, if people want guaranteed combos, they should go play Virtua Fighter, Soul Calibur, or Tekken. DOA5 shouldn't be any more offensively powerful than it already is. They already changed how the hold system works, which apparently you dislike holds in general, even though switching to 4 point hold got it nerfed again, and they already do very little damage in this build compared to the last, which I consider an improvement. We don't need any more offensive buffs. If people don't like this game because it's balanced in terms of fighting game mechanics instead of combo-heavy, so be it. We shouldn't sell out.

But, my real question is, if you don't like String Delays, Counter Holds, and Free Canceling, what draws you to Dead or Alive? These three things are the heart of the game, and the mechanics that make it different from the fighting games around it. Without these things, what would separate DOA from every other fighting game out there not including the stages?

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[d3v]

I see where you're going and understand most of your points but I still disagree a lot on transforming DOA into a game to appeal to the "FGC". I believe that FGC is vastly populated by kids maining Wesker in UMvC3. VF and KOF are proof enough that "being a competitive game" is not the only thing needed for the game to be successful in tournaments.

And what exactly is wrong with maining a top tier character, in Marvel where the metagame has always been about finding the top tier characters with abusive shit to abuse?

P.S. UMvC3 is popular because it builds upon the legacy of not just any game, but America's Game aka Marvel vs. Capcom 2. For all that technical differences, on a meta level, the game's are still pretty similar. All of the derpy bullshit that made the god tiers rule in MvC2 has just been augmented by new levels of derpy bullshit that makes UMvC3's top tiers.

The issue then with DOA5 is that it's coming of DOA4, a game that almost no one that matters in the FGC respects, especially not after Tom Brady blew the game and the scene up on his video a few years ago. So in other words, DOA5 then has to cater to to what the FGC wants because like it or not, the FGC is what runs competitive fighting games in the US and most of the rest of the world. Even the MLG is having trouble competing in terms of fighters with them as made obvious by the low attendance in their KoF events.

EDIT: Yes I am biased because I do play UMvC3 (and run Morrigan/Doom which is the most Marvel 2 team in that game).

 

[ScattereDreams]

People like guaranteed, no effort combos, hilariously overpowered characters

You think DOA combo's take effort?

 

[Rikuto]

Well, I don't need to watch videos of people playing the game to come up with an idea of how its supposed to be played... kind of already there lol.

I'll tell you this sir.

Putting in an unholdable stun is essentially the same thing as limiting the number of times a person can hold. Why?

Because the first stun typically comes from a fast attack which does not cause an unholdable state. So the hold is limited to that first attack after stun. After that it can't be used anymore... so the problem is already solved. It just needs to be applied to more characters now.

 

[d3v]

Before I continue: All this is said with all due respect, as I'm new, and isn't meant personal, or an insult in any way. It's just direct is all.

DOA isn't accepted because it's different. People like guaranteed, no effort combos, hilariously overpowered characters, and not playing the game their trying to play, even if they're playing the game. There's a higher level of awareness needed in DOA, and most people don't like that. Personally, I think the way there's trying to make mechanics you can't counter out if is wrong, especially how much holds got nerfed in this iteration of the game. Seriously, what are all you guys worried about in terms of being held mid-combo? Taking the small amount of damage (compared to DOA4) that most counter holds do? Your opponent actually having to be somewhat precise in countering it? Holds got nerfed, and you want offense to be even blinder by making 20% less stuns holdable?

Because fighting games are more than just what happens when someone gets hit confirmed. The neutral game is just as, or even more important. Footsies, spacing, blockstrings, offense, etc. are the actual meat of any fighting games. The problem is that scrubs don't know jack shit about playing the neutral game and good defense, which is why they get hit. DOA4 just exacerbated the issue since it allowed players to be reckless in their offense. If Bayman or Sarah get in on you in DOA5 and do a guaranteed combo, then it's your fault for not having a good neutral game. Same applies to any fighting game (if someone ToDs my Morri/Doom in UMvC3, it's because they were good enough to get past the sheer bullet hell I put them through). The key is in something that Capcom's Seth Killian mentioned sometime last year; players like it when good offense is rewarded with more offense.

 

[Berzerk!]

I'm going to reply further when I have more time but quickly-
I agree with the pluses but not all of the minuses
Delayable strings and especially free cancelling should not be changed dramatically or even much
It's a staple anchor of the mechanics and very much in line with how other 3d fighters work - particularly virtua fighter which is and should be the model here.
For now I really recommend people play much more vf5 and less sc5 as a basis of comparisons and I think we'll ok. Not an indictment on sc but its "off-model" for Doa I think other stuff about respect for Doa and bullshit from Brady are meaningless if we get a good game supported by tournaments. The fgc these days will try new games and give them an opportunity, it's much different audience and approach to the days of doa4

Great opening post DrDogg and interesting discussion for the most part.
D3v one short point on MLG and KOF you have to bring into question it's broader spectator appeal and look, in which I'd say it is lacking but DOA has in spades

 

[d3v]

D3v one short point on MLG and KOF you have to bring into question it's broader spectator appeal and look, in which I'd say it is lacking but DOA has in spades

It's partly that, but there's also the fact that, despite Sabin (Arturo Sanchez's) best efforts, MLG folks don't seem to respect FGs, or at least the community much, which resulted in some terrible streams as well as some questionable rules (e.g. winning the winners final not giving you a twice to beat advantage).