DOA5 E3 Build: The Good, Bad and Ugly

[EMPEROR_COW]

You've made it perfectly clear you don't agree with anything that most of us think would make DOA a better game. At this point, I really don't know why you continue to reply to these threads. You're just saying the same things over and over again. We make a point that would change DOA to appeal to the greater FGC, then you come in saying you don't agree with it and that you essentially want DOA4 all over again with minor adjustments.

How would you even know this? You have yet to play a version of the game in which CB is used and in which there are universal stuns that can't be countered out of.

Relax dude, why are you being so defensive just because I disagree with what you like?
Oh and news flash, YOU ARE NOT THE FGC.


How does anything I said refer back to DOA4 ?
We didn't have unholdable sitdowns in DOA4 and I totally agree with them.
Not everyone's out to get you Dogg, Chill.

A CB occurs when the CB attack crosses the stun threshold. As you pointed out, using the same attack twice automatically crosses the stun threshold. Normally this would cause the opponent to fall, but in the case of CB it's a NEW SYSTEM MECHANIC which stops the fall and instead creates a stun the opponent can't counter out of. It's not defying DOA logic at all, it's simply adding to it.

This argument went long enough in the other thread and there is no need to debate it any further. I simply stated my opinion.

In VF you have a large number of attacks that are safe or grant frame advantage. In addition, frame advantage is important because a vast majority of the cast doesn't have an instant counterhold technique.

There are also a ton of moves that put you at a frame DISADVANTAGE on HIT ! Hell, some characters more so than others. (including Sarah)


Meaning, the opponent can screw you over of you press a follow up input even though you hit them first and STUNNED THEM. I'm not talking about a move like a jump attack or anything, Im talking about moves that even put the opponent in stun. So yes, in that sense I dont see how the current DOA is any different.

No offense, but I could care less about tag and I have no desire to see the Power Blow change back to a universal command. I don't think the change was made just because of tag as that's pretty much always been secondary to the 1v1 game.

That is not a solution. I refuse to accept sacrificing a well established mode in every other game just so you could be happy. From what I understood, some of the power blow commands are pretty wonky. I wouldn't want them to interfere with the rest of my move set.


And it seems that you are forgetting that we are up against TTT2. Tag mode HAS TO BE GOOD.

I don't understand the question.

Before quoting VF, I suggest you try it out more.
A lot of the character stances are switched by using G+P+K. a simple example to this would be Sarah:

G+P+K : switch between closed and open stance
G+P+KG+P+K: flamingo stance
G+P+K: forward slide stance
G+P+K: moonsault


from flamingo stance:
G+P+K : Step stance
G+P+K: moonsault


from back turn:
G+P+K : moonsault
...
this is just Sarah without putting the mid string switches, and I can go on.

 

[TRI Mike]

Now, I forgot to ask this before. Do characters have different CB¿ as in one mid punch, one high, etc¿ I wouldn't want to see, for example, Busa having only a mid-punch CB and being too easy to counter-hold it even when the defensive player is in a critical stun.

 

[Matt Ponton]

In the end, all I want is a DOA5 that has a solid competitive scene because people like the game, not because there's a ton of money on the line (CGS and WCG).

 

[NightAntilli]

I can agree with most of it, but I mostly disagree with the things that are under 'the bad'.

Everything is Unsafe
1) At this point, 90% of the attacks in DOA5 are unsafe if blocked. Most of the safe attacks are either slow and easily countered (charge attacks) or a high attack at the end of a combo. This encourages players to free cancel mid-combo and/or play the guessing game of mixing up the last attack in a combo (do I go for the safe high that can be ducked, or the unsafe mid?).
2) Give me some safe attacks that don't launch or stun on normal hit so I can actually finish a combo without fear of getting punished.

Free Canceling and String Delays
A) Next to counterholds, these are probably two of the worst features in the DOA series. Both are good concepts that could potentially work well, but only when used sparingly. The fact that you can use these system mechanics on almost every single combo/attack in the game is not a good thing. It blurs the ability to determine who has the advantage between the offensive and defensive player. You never know when it's safe to attack because the offensive player may not be done with their combo. It promotes more guessing, which is not a good thing.

B) I'm okay with Free Canceling, but unless the opponent is in the air, you should be at a big disadvantage. Enough of a disadvantage that the defensive player can recognize you free canceled and make use of their new found frame advantage. As it stands, you can Free Cancel and continue attacking with no real consequences.
C) String delays are also okay, but not if every attack in a string can be delayed. This should be limited to only a few attacks in a handful of strings, and the delayed attacks should be unsafe if blocked. There should be some consequences for having the ability to delay an attack. If the delay doesn't work, you should be punished for it, even if it's only minor punishment.

The unsafe moves actually complement the delay & free cancelling.. I marked each part of the argument with a number/letter..

Number 2 is actually only a problem if you see number 1 as a problem.

Number 1 is only a problem if you think A is a problem.

Letter B is only a problem if you think A is a problem.

Letter C is only a problem if you think A is a problem.

So letter A is the center of this whole 'bad' part. So, let's see..

Free cancelling and string delays are part of the game, and if doing these two would give guaranteed punishment, everyone would prefer to finish their strings, which would mean that the fight becomes a pure calculation with barely any risk/reward.. It becomes either a spam-fest or a turtle-fest in which the ones who knows the math wins.

People have become afraid of the word 'guessing' it seems. I agree that guessing should be minimized, but.. The problem is not really guessing itself. All fighting games have guessing to some extent. The issue is only there when the guessing defender gets rewarded too much, and when the risk-taker that's doing all the work gets punished unfairly because of randomness. String delays and free cancelling are there to keep the defender under pressure and reward the attacker just enough. Full strings/combos are there to potentially finish your juggles for more damage, not to spam at your opponent. If the safest option would be to finish your strings, you're doing something wrong. During the string you'd need multiple safe options for the defender to guess at, otherwise the attacker would get countered way too easily, which would turn into something similar to DOA4 again... So.. It doesn't solve the so-called guessing game, and if there are multiple safe options, it rewards mashers way too much.

Aside from that, these two features add depth to the gameplay because it adds flexibility. From experience with the game, you learn when you can interrupt certain players with certain characters, when you can better finish your strings etc. It actually makes reading your opponent useful instead of only needing to look at frame data and how to punish. It helps with baiting too.. Skill becomes more than just math. Being able to free cancel at the right times and delay your strings just enough to catch your opponent off-guard also shows how much control you have over your character, instead of just knowing the strings by heart. Calculations should be used to help your gameplay, not to be the center of the game. It makes it dull, shallow and predictable. And now that we have side-steps, delaying and free cancelling might be more important than ever to not make sidestepping overshadow the rest of the fight.[/quote]

 

[RuNNing Riot]

A really awesome post DrDogg, I'm happy that you took the time to compile a list of everything that's currently sweet and sour about DOA5 at the moment. A couple things I would like to be clarified, though:

Frame Data
- While it's ridiculously awesome to see frame data in almost every mode of the game, it's not always accurate. There are many occasions when the game lists a situation at +11, but you can't connect a 10-frame attack. It's my understanding that this has to do with how DOA system mechanics work, but it needs to be displayed clearly for competitive players. If a VF player sees that Akira is at +11, he'll expect to be able to connect his 10-frame jab.

If you mean the ability to guard 1 frame before a stun ends, wouldn't that count under part of learning the game's subtler mechanics? Equally, free canceling and slow escaping are very important aspects of DOA that go completely under-the-radar. I know they very briefly touched on slow escaping in DOAD's instory tutorials (which I believe will be returning for 5) but the only thing that was ever told about that was that you mash left and right to right yourself when stunned and backturned.

Everything is Unsafe
- At this point, 90% of the attacks in DOA5 are unsafe if blocked. Most of the safe attacks are either slow and easily countered (charge attacks) or a high attack at the end of a combo. This encourages players to free cancel mid-combo and/or play the guessing game of mixing up the last attack in a combo (do I go for the safe high that can be ducked, or the unsafe mid?).

- I'm okay with Free Canceling, but unless the opponent is in the air, you should be at a big disadvantage. Enough of a disadvantage that the defensive player can recognize you free canceled and make use of their new found frame advantage. As it stands, you can Free Cancel and continue attacking with no real consequences.

Aren't these two complaints opposed to each other? On one hand you want frame advantage for most attacks but then you want frame disadvantage for cancelled strings.

 

[Rikuto]

No, they are not.

He isn't saying most attacks should have frame advantage, he's saying they should be safe if completed. Safe as in, not throw punishable.

He's also saying that the way DOA's system works with nearly every string being delayable creates a fucked up sense of false pressure and is bad for the game in general. In order for it to be functional competitively, both of these things should be fixed.


Reaction is also a big part of a competitive fighting game, and making every string delayable to such a crazy extent means that reaction plays almost zero part in DOA. Reaction is replaced with guessing, and guessing should not be necessary here.

 

[grap3fruitman]

How does anything I said refer back to DOA4?

Have you not been reading your own posts?

 

[StickyStaines]

Doesn't VF have all strings pretty much delayable? I know it's not the same game, but something that's a non issue in one seems silly to have such a heavy negative impact in another. Using delayed strings in VF helps to train the opponent into not pressing buttons after certain moves, so you can use moves that are normally disadvantage on block but keep on the pressure since they get scared of attacking. Does sidestep have evasive properties to help punish delayed strings?

 

[Rikuto]

Doesn't VF have all strings pretty much delayable? I know it's not the same game, but something that's a non issue in one seems silly to have such a heavy negative impact in another. Using delayed strings in VF helps to train the opponent into not pressing buttons after certain moves, so you can use moves that are normally disadvantage on block but keep on the pressure since they get scared of attacking. Does sidestep have evasive properties to help punish delayed strings?

No. Not at all.

There are very few strings in VF that are delayable. And you can sidestep certain delayed attacks, yes... but what good is that going to do you when every single string can be delayed? You going to sidestep in the middle of every single string and pray they dont free cancel and throw you?

Just another form of guessing.

 

[Skilletor]

There are also a ton of moves that put you at a frame DISADVANTAGE on HIT ! Hell, some characters more so than others. (including Sarah)


Meaning, the opponent can screw you over of you press a follow up input even though you hit them first and STUNNED THEM. I'm not talking about a move like a jump attack or anything, Im talking about moves that even put the opponent in stun. So yes, in that sense I dont see how the current DOA is any different.

Can you name a single situation in VF where you, the attacker, stun the opponent and the opponent can hit you first?

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

He isn't saying most attacks should have frame advantage, he's saying they should be safe if completed. Safe as in, not throw punishable.

He's also saying that the way DOA's system works with nearly every string being delayable creates a fucked up sense of false pressure and is bad for the game in general. In order for it to be functional competitively, both of these things should be fixed.

Umm, are there any moves on hit that are throw punishable after connecting in DOA ? I am unaware of this. Please do share.. :S

As for Delayable strings, I thought you guys liked pressure, be it true or false! I dont see how this is bad .. If anything, I find it a very valuable way of screwing with someone's head offensively. If its an excecution issue, just free cancel between strikes.

and VF does have a few delayable strings as you stated and it hasn't hurt the game. In fact, It adds to the mind game.

 

[StickyStaines]

No. Not at all.

There are very few strings in VF that are delayable. And you can sidestep certain delayed attacks, yes... but what good is that going to do you when every single string can be delayed? You going to sidestep in the middle of every single string and pray they dont free cancel and throw you?

Just another form of guessing.

Well im in VF5 training right now with Pai and you can delay pretty much every string; some longer than others. But say, delaying her PPKK compared to doing it normally is very noticeable. Maybe i'm confused on the extent on the delay here. I'm new here to DoA, do you mind putting it into perspective?

Theoretically, you would sidestep when you felt they were going for a delay in their string to avoid the delay move and punish accordingly. If they read you were going to sidestep and free canceled into throw, well then applaud to them. It seems like a basic level of reading your opponent and applying that to a strategy, i don't see why that's so bad. Yeah you might have to make guesses, but these guesses are influenced in the observation of your opponent and choosing an option which weighs into the factor of risk/reward. Thats just fundamental mind games.

 

[ScattereDreams]

and VF does have a few delayable strings as you stated and it hasn't hurt the game. In fact, It adds to the mind game.

VF does have some delayed strings, but not crazy delay-able like in DOA

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

VF does have some delayed strings, but not crazy delay-able like in DOA

Regardless, I don't see this as a problem. We certainly dont want every fricken game on earth to play exactly the same. Otherwise, whats the point?

 

[Rikuto]

Umm, are there any moves on hit that are throw punishable after connecting in DOA ? I am unaware of this. Please do share.. :S

We're talking on block. And on block many, if not most, attacks in DOA are throw punishable. On hit, certain attacks like Bayman's 6pp2k are also throw punishable. That's stupid.

As for Delayable strings, I thought you guys liked pressure, be it true or false! I dont see how this is bad .. If anything, I find it a very valuable way of screwing with someone's head offensively. If its an excecution issue, just free cancel between strikes.

Pressure is good when it is coming from a specific attack that has frame advantage, a guard break, or is really fast and really safe with good tracking properties, etc. When you give a specific move a property that makes it a good pressure attack, you can logically figure out when someone is likely to use it... and thats when actual mind games start. Reaction also plays a significant part and helps to alleviate the stress of guessing.

What happens in DOA is that every single move is delayable, good or not, therefore you are constantly in a state of guessing with no real logical reason to it.

and VF does have a few delayable strings as you stated and it hasn't hurt the game. In fact, It adds to the mind game.

Because they are few, you know which strings they are when they have started up and if you are competitive you will know if there is a universal way to avoid the delayed attack and/or get out. You can't do this when nearly every single attack in the game is delayable.

Regardless, I don't see this as a problem. We certainly dont want every fricken game on earth to play exactly the same. Otherwise, whats the point?

Trim down the delayability and the game still plays differently. There is absolutely nothing beneficial about designing something to be "different just for the sake for being different" if the game itself is not functional competitively.

 

[Allan Paris]

Umm, are there any moves on hit that are throw punishable after connecting in DOA ? I am unaware of this. Please do share.. :S

EVERYTHING that Kasumi does, that does not stun and is not a jab or jab jab.

Edit: She's not the only one either, all of them are like this. She just has it the worst.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

We're talking on block. And on block many, if not most, attacks in DOA are throw punishable. On hit, certain attacks like Bayman's 6pp2k are also throw punishable. That's stupid.

I disagree with the on block thing. Every game on earth has throw punishable moves on block. Thats normal.

As for throw punishable on hit, ok THAT is deffinately retarded and needs to be fixed, to a degree.
However, I do believe that the move sets were designed to make certain moves safer on stun. Meaning, you cant just throw out any move you like any time. Some moves are safe on normal hit and others on stun (as in the kasumi example). I think this is fine. hell even SF4 has moves that are punishable on hit in certain match ups.

Pressure is good when it is coming from a specific attack that has frame advantage, a guard break, or is really fast and really safe with good tracking properties, etc. When you give a specific move a property that makes it a good pressure attack, you can logically figure out when someone is likely to use it... and thats when actual mind games start. Reaction also plays a significant part and helps to alleviate the stress of guessing.

What happens in DOA is that every single move is delayable, good or not, therefore you are constantly in a state of guessing with no real logical reason to it.

Because they are few, you know which strings they are when they have started up and if you are competitive you will know if there is a universal way to avoid the delayed attack and/or get out. You can't do this when nearly every single attack in the game is delayable.

Yes, but you are talking about guessing in defense, meaning the string delays are a good offensive tool. So where's the problem? I want to screw with my defending opponent and make them react incorrectly so I can punish them.

A simple example would be conditioning the opponent by going for PPK with Ayane then going for a throw. The second time I would do PPK and delay the last K after to bait out a strike reation against my possible throw attempt. In a sense it would work as a frame trap. I dont see how this is bad.

If you're on the defensive then I want to frustrate you and make you guess more. Thats the whole point of being on the defensive!

 

[Allan Paris]

I disagree with the on block thing. Every game on earth has throw punishable moves on block. Thats normal.

Everything being like that is not 'normal'. I was going to ask but, I know you don't know how to read frame data or at least you haven't looked at it for DOA4.

As for throw punishable on hit, ok THAT is deffinately retarded and needs to be fixed. I agree 100%

That's good you agree on this.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Everything being like that is not 'normal'. I was going to ask but, I know you don't know how to read frame data or at least you haven't looked at it for DOA4..

DOA4 is the least DOA I ever played and I am not familiar with alot of things with it due to it being a shit fest. As for reading frame data, yes I can fricken read frame data !

And not every move in the game is throw punishable on block.

That's good you agree on this..

I edited my quote before I saw your reply. Sorry.

 

[StickyStaines]

I disagree with the on block thing. Every game on earth has throw punishable moves on block. Thats normal.

I could see why it would be bad if it is to the extent that Rikuto says and it is most moves. It should leave you at disadvantage sure, since thats the effective way for the game flow to change hands. But being forced into a throw mixup(assuming you can tech out in a punishable situation) for every attack on block is pretty daunting.

I'd imagine delayed strings and free canceling help to alleviate that somewhat; these seem to go hand in hand in a way. Seems like if you were to limit delayable strings then moves would generally need to be safer. Guess it depends on what kind of system you're going for.

EDIT: ahh right, command throws aren't techable in doa.