Helena's needed improvements

[Omegan Eckhart]

Alrighty well I can assure you that you're off with your timing. Since P comes out faster and than 236p.

You don't understand, 236P has a larger hitbox than P does that's why 236P lands when P doesn't. Honestly just try this out:
BT P+K on CH > 236PKP then try BT P+K on CH > PPK. You will see what I mean, seriously try it.

 

[DR2K]

Try 236p after bko 6ppk wall splat, then try ppk. See which hits. Speed matters. (heavy)

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Try 236p after bko 6ppk wall splat, then try ppk. See which hits. Speed matters. (heavy)

But BKO 6PPK leaves Helena in BKO, she can't do 236P from BKO?!

 

[DR2K]

But BKO 6PPK leaves Helena in BKO, she can't do 236P from BKO?!

Free cancel monami.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Free cancel monami.

Touche good sir, but that is the only time when PPK works and 236PKP doesn't lol

 

[DR2K]

Touche good sir, but that is the only time when PPK works and 236PKP doesn't lol

I'm just showing why p speed would make a difference.

But pp2kp would do more damage than 236pkp and pp2kk would be even more on an electric floor. Hence why it's her best juggle ender.

Of course with the techable situation all thse juggle enders are pointless unless it's a handslap.

 

[Project Bokuho]

lol am i the only who misses her PP2KP still?

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

lol am i the only who misses her PP2KP still?

You and DR2K are made for one another.

I'm just showing why p speed would make a difference.

But pp2kp would do more damage than 236pkp and pp2kk would be even more on an electric floor. Hence why it's her best juggle ender.

Of course with the techable situation all thse juggle enders are pointless unless it's a handslap.

PP2KP wasn't her best combo ender because it did the most damage it was because it was a universal air juggle working on all weight classes and off of any launch. Damage wise 66KPP was and is her best combo ender.

Like you said though 33P4P lands even easier than PP2KP did so we are in a good position. I still think this buff to 236PKP is a good trade off for losing PP2KP.

I respect your opinion but I don't share it.

 

[DR2K]

There's a 7 point difference between ppk and 236pkp, I would imagine pp2kp would be the bigger damage ender, and the 2kk version.

Another thing about the string itself is that it give her a really solid high low mix up game, plus at full charge was a standing guard break.

It was a great string with a ton of utility and uses. The buff to 236pkp does not componsate for anything since her damage is shit. The unintentional ground tech on the other hand has made up for every single one of her nerfs.

Plus it made for some sexy combos from bko throw at a wall.

 

[Project Bokuho]

You and DR2K are made for one another.

lol i hope you're joking.

 

[KwonJigglypuff]

I've always felt like Helena's 2H+K could be a sabaki interrupting lows, what do you think ? Would be a nice way to buff it. I know sabaki are somehow exclusive to Lei Fang, but... Helena's chinese fighting style could somehow allow it, like Eliot's or Kokoro's.

Any idea how to improve 236P+K ? That move needs to become some special tool...

(I'm just looking for a way to improve some of her moves in her movelist which I find quite useless...)

 

[CrimsonCJ]

I've always felt like Helena's 2H+K could be a sabaki interrupting lows, what do you think ? Would be a nice way to buff it. I know sabaki are somehow exclusive to Lei Fang, but... Helena's chinese fighting style could somehow allow it, like Eliot's or Kokoro's.

Any idea how to improve 236P+K ? That move needs to become some special tool...

(I'm just looking for a way to improve some of her moves in her movelist which I find quite useless...)

236P+K is a mystery to everyone, I think. The problem with it is that the backwards wheel is almost more of a defensive move or a taunt. Possibly it'd have to be another sabaki move... maybe mids? Some people might want even more advantage off it to make it into something that gives you a guaranteed on block, but I just don't like that.

2H+K... sure! Though I really want a low sabaki in BKO more than anything.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

I've always felt like Helena's 2H+K could be a sabaki interrupting lows, what do you think ? Would be a nice way to buff it. I know sabaki are somehow exclusive to Lei Fang, but... Helena's chinese fighting style could somehow allow it, like Eliot's or Kokoro's.

Any idea how to improve 236P+K ? That move needs to become some special tool...

(I'm just looking for a way to improve some of her moves in her movelist which I find quite useless...)

Do we need to improve 2F+K? It isn't Helena's fastest low that stuns on NH but the animation is ambiguous enough that you can't recognise it and counter it on reaction. Plus it crushes high's instantly, which is important now that P+K doesn't.

236P+K will never be useful. It is too slow and it's hitbox sucks. If it was a sabaki it would be easier to land but being +1 on block would be pointless. Making it faster might work but it would need at least 7 frames shaved off it's start up.

The only thing you can do with this move is try and bait your opponent into blocking by delaying strings.

Try doing KK > 236P+K or 33P > 236P+K and if they try to interrupt you next time you finish the strings and make them want to block.

SUPER BONUS HAPPY FUN FACT OF THE DAY!!!​

236P+K can be used against fuzzy guarders. Do any string that goes low, 9P2K or PP2K for example and instead of going low free cancel and do 236P+K. They will low block quickly then stand and block again just in time so that they will be forced to block the attack. There you go, you now have +1!​

​

 

[CrimsonCJ]

Do we need to improve 2F+K? It isn't Helena's fastest low that stuns on NH but the animation is ambiguous enough that you can't recognise it and counter it on reaction. Plus it crushes high's instantly, which is important now that P+K doesn't.

Need to probably isn't entirely the question with that change, admittedly. 2H+K, unlike 236P+K, is more directly functional at the moment. Still, I don't see why not, or why Helena would be a character who it might to make sense to take in that direction a bit.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Need to probably isn't entirely the question with that change, admittedly. 2H+K, unlike 236P+K, is more directly functional at the moment. Still, I don't see why not, or why Helena would be a character who it might to make sense to take in that direction a bit.

I would love to see Helena re-worked somewhat. TN says she is a technical character but as of yet I haven't found anything about her that is technical. With the nerf to her force tech she doesn't really have a core strength any more so it would be nice to see her excel at something.

She used to be the best mix up character but since DOA4 other characters string manipulation has gotten better whilst hers has pretty much remained the same. She is what she is now though and I don't think we will see anything much new until DOA6.

 

[Project Bokuho]

I wish Helena could have a parry (only for low attacks) while in her BKO stance. I think it would benefit her pretty well.

 

[Akumasama]

Things I've always been missing for Helena and that sadly are still not here:

1) a way to get to BT with a single, fast move. Kinda like Brad Wong or Ayane can.
2) A low throw from BT
3) Her Offensive Holds from DoA4 Q__Q

Strange enough I don't miss PP2KP. I did at start but I kinda got used at not having it now.

 

[TRI Mike]

I still miss her PP2KP a lot. I feel uncomfortable playing her around this FT nonsense.

 

[Akumasama]

I did feel very uncomfortable at start, I was so angry and frustrated I was about to drop the character, but I kinda got used now. I miss more offensive holds like 236+FP or 3+FP. Was so good for people who start with low punches expecting you to be in Teishitsu at start. For instance a whole load of Tina and Hitomi players start with those attacks. Was so awesome to throw them with 3+FP at start

Why did Hayashi had to make Offensive Holds so strange in DoA5, they were so standard and so awesome in DoA4. It's one of the few gameplay changes I can complain about, it was an awesome addition to the DoA series

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Why did Hayashi had to make Offensive Holds so strange in DoA5, they were so standard and so awesome in DoA4. It's one of the few gameplay changes I can complain about, it was an awesome addition to the DoA series

They were made unique to grappler characters to try and make that particular type of character better without making them more like the striking characters.

Unfortunately Jann Lee ended up with one for absolutely no reason and we all now how that worked out.

Helena's 3F+P was useful but 236F+P was straight up garbage, way too much start up frames and it's active frames were too short. I don't miss it at all.