Lisa version 1.03 changes

[Neige]

Actually, the more I think about 66PP, the more I struggle to find serious uses for it.

66P is 20 frames, as slows as any CB and far riskier than 1PP for the purpose of "getting in". You try landing the move on a standing, alert opponent! In fact, when did serious Lisa players ever use 66PP to open up an opponent? It wasn't a question of not enough reward, it's a question of 66PP being a slow standing double mid-punch strike with no evasion!

And another thing: 66PP Collapsed inside a stun combo. The new "buff" doesn't add anything other than a single instance of unholdable stun! That's all it does!

1PK, 66PP, 236K: that's my best use for the new 66PP. If your opponent thinks you'll go 1PP, this serves as the mix-up. In fact, I think 1PK will be the new "regular" way to open foes, but if you hit 1PK on CH, I doubt you'll get the second P.

Nope, 1.03 Lisa will be all about the BT 7P CB. 9K on CH, BT 7P, launcher of choice or big HCH throw. Or think of 7K6, P4, BT 7P... 236K? Or placed after the new 3K4 and it's variants?

 

[Chaos]

I forgot her 66PP was 20 frames it's been a while.

 

[Batcommander]

Actually, the more I think about 66PP, the more I struggle to find serious uses for it.

66P is 20 frames, as slows as any CB and far riskier than 1PP for the purpose of "getting in". You try landing the move on a standing, alert opponent! In fact, when did serious Lisa players ever use 66PP to open up an opponent? It wasn't a question of not enough reward, it's a question of 66PP being a slow standing double mid-punch strike with no evasion!

And another thing: 66PP Collapsed inside a stun combo. The new "buff" doesn't add anything other than a single instance of unholdable stun! That's all it does!

1PK, 66PP, 236K: that's my best use for the new 66PP. If your opponent thinks you'll go 1PP, this serves as the mix-up. In fact, I think 1PK will be the new "regular" way to open foes, but if you hit 1PK on CH, I doubt you'll get the second P.

Nope, 1.03 Lisa will be all about the BT 7P CB. 9K on CH, BT 7P, launcher of choice or big HCH throw. Or think of 7K6, P4, BT 7P... 236K? Or placed after the new 3K4 and it's variants?

66PP has tracking properties on both hits, and with sidestep buffs, it may find more use. But then again, 1PK tracks too and is faster, so yeah. It's clear TN wants this to be a starter move, since it does too much stun on its own and knocks down if you try to use it during stun game.

The other problem with 66P is that's high, on top of the short range. Best time to use it, i think, will be after a guard break; blocked P+K will shave 5 frames off it, and i assume the new 9kp can assist too.

edit: other good ways to set up 66P; after 44 throw, and also after landing PP on normal and counter hit. I still hope PP is +20 on hit!

 

[Neige]

The "new" 9KP is just a back turn option from her regular flying back elbow, so no; it wouldn't help. For the rest, you've nailed it: 66P doesn't do anything 1P does better or faster. PP is +20 only as a CH (both Ps must CH) or inside a stun combo, meaning that an additional 66PP would pass threshold.

EDIT: I don't have the game with me (actually I Do, what I'm lacking is a controller. But never mind) but I do have my game guide... You know that "new" guaranteed BT 4P off backhit 4P+K? Well it's guaranteed on normal front hit, normal crouch hit, etc... But the only time it wasn't guaranteed was during backhit! In other words, the booty bump gave LESS stun frames if you'd hit a back turned enemy, and now we'll finally have the same amount of stun frames on a backhit or on a front hit (or a crouching hit, or within a stun). Max stun frames without SE is 23, so the new CB from back turn should be possible, but not guaranteed off the booty.

 

[Neige]

So what's up with the new damage for the heavy ground attacks? I'm reading my guide; all 8P+K attacks on grounded foes do between 18 to 22 damage (Jann Lee is an exception at 25 D). Even Ground throws deal either 20 or 30 damage.

So yeah, 40 damage off a heavy ground attack is a pretty big deal. 9PP4 into GB advantage or big splash on hit? A new Lisa strategy centered on big ground damage? Tech roll or bust?

 

[Batcommander]

Yep, booty on BT opponent didn't give shit, except another booty if they didn't slow escape. Basically, 64throw was just a i6 throw that setup a guaranteed 30 damage plus a small mixup afterwards. Very meh. It's a good thing they changed booty bump properties in the new patch, because all hits to a BT opponent will face them forward if it didn't knock down, which is a bit silly imo.

I agree with you, that 40 damage on heavy ground attack is not to be ignored. I was a bit shocked seeing it tbh, i guess they want Lisa's high flying moves to hurt. I was testing earlier, and if you land 6F+K, you can quickly BT then do heavy ground attack. Comes out to about 70 damage, which is huge off of one attack. If KK6K is considered a vertical slam kick (well see on tuesday), then that means you should be able to land a heavy ground attack off that too. Exciting possibilities await!

 

[Tones]

It encourages you to use them more as a part of juggles 50-60% of 40 is 20/24. It's still a gamble to use them. It's more useful with things like Eliot's 66p+k since some people don't tech roll because they think they are at a safe distance but his 8p+k will land. Lei Fang's juggles has always had some juggles which end in it, they might be the most damaging with the change.

If you do use them in a juggle, you could use it as a way to bait wake up kicks or techrolls (depending on your opponent's preference).

66p is crap, which is why I never used it. I may use it like once every 2-3 games now.

 

[synce]

I think they buffed her heavy ground attacks because unlike other characters if you whiff you get low grabbed. Honestly I'd rather they made the attacks safe instead of increasing the damage..

EDIT: Actually scratch that, I'm pretty sure other characters are also susceptible to low grab on whiff. Don't know what I was thinking there lol

66P is not to be underestimated though... At i20 it's not going to replace 1P as her BnB but it's not THAT slow and it tracks. The limbo probably won't guarantee 9K but I'm sure it guarantees 236K so the fear of a CB will get you a free grab or 66PK into BT mixup. Another great thing is you can delay the 66PP by infinity frames.

 

[Tokkosho]

I think 66PP>qcfK4>7P will be a guaranteed cb (IIRC you can CB a limbo stunned opponent) if not, she has 4K to max stun the opponent

 

[ailingeternity]

I think 66PP>qcfK4>7P will be a guaranteed cb (IIRC you can CB a limbo stunned opponent) if not, she has 4K to max stun the opponent

You may be able to extend it but I don't think you can CB an opponent while they're in limbo stun. Try it with Tina's and you'll see what I mean.

While we're on the topic of it's still i20 and a high, making it easily crushed. The best way to use this will be as mixed pressure with from mid range especially after a tech roll or advantage.

 

[synce]

Just spent some time with Lisa in 1.03....

66PP is indeed limbo on NH, but only from open stance. In closed stance it causes a collapse. If you get the limbo it guarantees 236K, which puts opponent into ANOTHER limbo stun, which gives you a free launcher.

The new booty bump only gives enough advantage to land BT 4P or continue stun game with jabs, and sadly you don't get any CH/HCH bonus from 64T grab leading into it. So deja vu does 108 on hch, 64t into juggle does about 86dmg

Splash GB still gives guaranteed 6P, when they said they changed the status they just added half-crouch status immediately after crouch.

The new 9K does NOT cause knockdown on NH, it causes.... A +25 SIT DOWN!!

Also 9KP4 is indeed +5

 

[Batcommander]

Just spent some time with Lisa in 1.03....

66PP is indeed limbo on NH, but only from open stance. In closed stance it causes a collapse. If you get the limbo it guarantees 236K, which puts opponent into ANOTHER limbo stun, which gives you a free launcher.

The new booty bump only gives enough advantage to land BT 4P or continue stun game with jabs, and sadly you don't get any CH/HCH bonus from 64T grab leading into it. So deja vu does 108 on hch, 64t into juggle does about 86dmg

Splash GB still gives guaranteed 6P, when they said they changed the status they just added half-crouch status immediately after crouch.

The new 9K does NOT cause knockdown on NH, it causes.... A +25 SIT DOWN!!

Also 9KP4 is indeed +5

Hold up, is that 86 damage from a NORMAL throw? Because that's fucking nuts. Also, i don't see the patch on Japanese PSN, how did you get it?

 

[Neige]

I thought Limbo was already an (unholdable) Collapse stun? You can get a Collapse stun off a normal hit 66PP?

So 66PP (limbo stun), 236K (still limbo)... Think you can back turn cancel into 7P to get the right proper CB?

Booty on BT opponent sounds like a return to form. I'm guessing that the booty gives the same amount of stun on BT opponent as it does on front facing opponent. Try 64T>4P+K>4P... enough height for a 4PK>T on medium opponent?

Just to make sure... 9KP4 is +5GB against blocking opponent, right? If it actually connects, they should be knocked down one way or another, with maybe enough frame advantage to help a heavy down strike?

 

[Tones]

How did you manage to get your hands on 1.03?

 

[Batcommander]

How did you manage to get your hands on 1.03?

japanese psn account

 

[synce]

Well to get the patch right now you need a Japanese copy of the game... It's not on PS Store or anything

Yes an i11 grab setup that does ~85dmg on NH That setup neige posts does work on both lights and mids.

@neige By collapse I mean when they hold stomach and fall (this can be countered out of but not SE'd). In limbo they look like they're doing the limbo and can't counter or SE. And nope, CB is not possible from second limbo, it just knocks them down.

As for 9KP4 etc if the P connects it just knocks back, nothing is guaranteed from it. I think this move will have very limited uses if any (mostly because it's high)

 

[Gruff757]

i dont have japanese and im downloading it right now

and it works.

early release?

 

[Tones]

Crumple stun. Limbo stun is the BT equalizent. Both you can't counter from both they are bending and falling. Feint stun the other one they can't counter from.

 

[Batcommander]

patch is out for psn, downloading it right now. Can't wait!

 

[Batcommander]

Dammit, KK6K can still be tech rolled. Lame. Was hoping to use this more.

9k gives +33 sitdown stun on normal and counter More later, i'll keep adding this post

--qcf P has low crush frames. Not sure if this was the case last patch. 6F+K can still be beat by lows.
--66pp limbo only on closed/open kinda sucks. I feel even less inclined to use this now. For the same speed, you can just use qcf K which has greater range, tracks, and is mid. /shrug
--9pp elbow is nice, but still fairly useless imo. At least it is +5 on block, i guess it's a faster guard break than using 9kP+K
--64throw ROCKS. 85 damage is just nuts. It doesn't seem too great with opponent near wall, need to experiment. Not too worried, we have 44throw for that anyways.
--3k being only -3 on block is huge imo. It was throw punishable by everyone last version, now it is safe! Also, because of the reduced recovery, you get more stun! This is a great buff!
--PP still remains untouched and grants +20 on hit, thank the gods. Works on normal and counter. New 11 frame jab gives +1 on hit which is awesome, but CH jab gives +3. Nice!

--66PP, on a crouching opponent, doesn't do shit, it gives a regular old +23 stun. Lame again.