"Pedestal Mentality": How it Hurts the FGC

Awesmic

Well-Known Member
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Well, here's my ignorant experience:

So far, I've felt extremely welcome here.
Sure, I haven't really contributed with any techs or stuff, but that's because I am still even trying to figure this game... all I've played so far was Mila and now I'm trying to play Kasumi (btw, the whole different character text up there... so true.).

I have to say, people in this forum are a whole bunch of stuff. Jerks, derps, annoying, crazy, jolly, nice. There's a bit of everything here, but I guess thats why so far no one has insulted me, despite my completely random and make-you-wanna-close-your-tab or lunatic comments about nekkid and girls or general lunacy.
You must be doing something different from what I'm doing. Some of the outlandish stuff I say almost guarantees someone's gonna close their tab. What's your secret?

Even when I question something (because really, I know nothing about this game... I crawled my ass up to D- so far, which means nothing but I feel so awesome for that little achievement) people haven't been cruel to me.
Then again, I also try to make sure I'm respecting everyone.
You're lucky. I worked my butt off and I'm still an F rank. But yes, respecting everyone is important.



One thing I have to say add, is I love what @Tenryuga, @iHajinShinobi, @Prince Adon and a few others (sorry) are doing with their Team BEST. I feel WONDERFUL. I don't win a single round (well, maybe I do once in a while) but I'm loving getting my ass kicked. @iHajinShinobi doesn't beat the crap out of me, he punishes me for my mistakes. He's literally pushing me to push the right buttons. And all the while we have a nice relaxed environment with jokes in the mix.
This touched me. This touched me beyond anything I ever felt in a community. That they take the time to do this for new people. They are literally pushing for me to try my best, they are correcting me in a constructive manner and they are praising me for my advancements. They are such nice people. The gratitude I feel is enormous. Fuck me, I'm crying while typing this. I can only hope one day I can join them and do the same for other people...
Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww... :(

I'm not good at fighting games, hell, I'm not good at games in general, despite being all I know in my life. But they make me wanna stick to this and keep trying my best, because they made me see how I improved and I wasn't even noticing it. They made me feel like even I can do this if I just stick to it.
That's the kind of people they are.

Once again, I am very grateful, beyond words. To the point of tears. I am sorry if it's cheesy, but I am extremely sensitive to kindness, specially towards me.
Man, don't worry about that... whether they wanna admit it or not, over half the people here watch Sailor Moon and MLP (the current one, not the cringe-worthy version from the 80s) including me, so they got no room to judge. :p
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
"Hey, I noticed X."
"X isn't true. Believe what I say because I can beat you in a fight."

Leonardo-DiCaprio-Shrug-Reaction-Gif.gif


Interestingly, I've actually noticed that the so-called "elitist mentality" has been subsiding as time goes on. It was very prominent in the earlier days, but as time goes on and the competitive community becomes more comfortable with each other, discussions have gotten more open and more voices are heard.

Obviously, there are some who just delight in maintaining a dickish, elitist persona and they're not really going to change, but in general, I think it's actually getting better.
 

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
I'll stick to my elitist guns, personally.

Advice from bad players has rarely raised a decent crop in my field of screams.
 

Kohlrak

Well-Known Member
Almost makes you want to start a real community project that'd REALLY kickthe game off. However, the idea i'm thinking of might be a bit too much (it's not the same as my previously mentioned ideas). It seems that right now the most successful DoA players are players that've gotten tutored directly by someone.
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
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I have always been "that player" who has personally helped a lot of other players with the game (basics, character specifics of characters I know and intermediate level advice) since the beginning of DOA5 Vanilla. Even while I wasn't really playing the game as much as I really wanted to (I can now these days, thankfully). But I've never really said "no" to a person that came to me asking for help.

I've helped players here on the forums, at DOAWorld, online on Xboxlive and PSN. I've helped players in person at offline casual gatherings, local tournaments and tournament majors. Every single week at Super Arcade's Wednesday Night Fights I have personally sat down with a player, answering all their questions. Play them in matches and critique them afterward like they ask me to.

If someone is directed to me for anything, or comes to me for anything, I do what I can to help out (however I can). If I cannot help said person, then I try to direct that person to someone else that can.

I've posted and shared a lot of Ayane tech in the Ayane sub-forums for players. I've written and shared a guide, made an extensive and viable combo video with @Prince Adon. And I've kept the Ayane sub-forums under control (no one raging, whining, complaining, it's kept well organized and still in the works of updates for match ups, a FAQ in the near future and her frame data pretty soon).

There are several other players in the community that make the same contributions as I do (even more than I have). Which is something I like to see. This is how you help your community grow. EVERYONE should want their own gaming community to grow.

Now, I have been here at FreeStepDodge for awhile now, same with DOAWorld (I don't post or log in there at all anymore simply because that place has become more of a pile of shit, but it's DOA so I still continue to observe). I have been observant of a lot of different topics and sub-forums here, even if I do not post in everything. I am watching the behavior of our community. I do not say anything as I don't find it my business to. I see some productivity, at times for good reason. And at times, for the wrong reasons.

Some people here seem to think they should contribute as much as they can for a popularity contest of some sort. This is not what making community contributions are about. Contributing to your community means you do it because you obviously like your game, you appreciate it and you enjoy it. You contribute because you want to help other people however you can. You want to help other people learn something they were probably unaware of, or are struggling with. You share what you know in order to help others.

Whether it is uploading some sort of video (these videos should be informative and display viability. Occasional impractical demonstrations are fine, but as long as the entire video isn't based on just that), sharing textual information, frame data, match ups, character specifics, general game mechanics/specifics (basic, intermediate, advanced, etc), hosting some sort of insightful event (online or offline including casuals), fanart, art, signatures, media, news, meaningful player interviews, etc.

You do these things so you can help the people in your community grow. A community that grows together, stays together. When I post up anything about Ayane specifics, I do it with the intent in hoping someone will gain something insightful out of it. That is what my Youtube channel is for, that's why I share information in the Ayane sub-forums, that's why I do what I can to help someone. Because I enjoy helping others, I don't do it for popularity (popularity is overrated) or so someone will like me.

These things are why people in the community appreciate me (if people happen to respect and/or like me because I play Ayane so well, then that just comes from their admiration). Just because I occasionally vent out about online lag (like anyone else would) does not make me a nasty individual. I wouldn't bother sticking around here for DOA or bother contributing here, or even play DOA if that were true. Everyone that has met me in person (and online for awhile) will tell you I am a very chill, reserve, and determined person.

What I want to see happen here, in the DOA community, is more growth. What do I mean exactly? It's quite simple, more experienced players (like myself and those who have more) need to come forth and start contributing more often for other players. More players need to come forth to discuss their characters, share tech, discuss and ACTUALLY explain character match ups. I want to see more players level up in this community. I want more players to do what they can together offline and play more often. I want our competitive offline scene to grow, and admittedly, we, the offline scene, need to work harder to see that it happens.

If it's one thing I have learned about this community, and something I absolutely hate about it--is that everyone tries to hide everything they know from everyone else. No one wants to share any character tech they find or any general game exploits about the game. You keep it to yourself because you are afraid of having someone find ways around it, because you do not want anyone else to know about it. Because you think someone is going to steal it. People mention they find something, but end up telling their players "figure it out!" and nothing else.

This sort of stigma has been around since DOACentral.

People have been doing the same thing with their character match ups as well. Some label their character match ups and want it to be set in stone without providing an in-depth description as to why said match up is labeled what it is. Because they don't want to discuss/debate/hear another side? (I am not implying everyone is guilty of these things, but most do).

This disgusts me.

This is one of the main reasons why this community doesn't grow. Because hardly anyone shares anything, most players are left in the dust with no real direction toward anything. Hiding these things does not help anyone, it does not help players improve. People are eventually going to figure what you're doing but that's later AFTER it's all said and done. You share tech with other players because YOU WANT them to level up and become aware of said specifics.

People figuring out how to fight your strategies is how YOU and OTHER PLAYERS level up. It's how players improve, it's how you learn more about your own game, it's what will drive you to look and discover other things you may have not noticed before, or at all. This is how the level of play increases. This is why our level of play (for most) doesn't increase.

There are so many people playing this game, and have been for awhile now. And don't even understand that throw punishment is the basic and generic form of punishment in DOA. And fail to understand why. There are A LOT AND I MEAN A LOT OF PLAYERS playing DOA, and have no real understanding of what fundamentals are. Most lack the understanding of spacing and footsies, the differences between spacing and footsies, whiff punishment and other basic understanding of play in a fighting game.

I understand players are still learning, still improving, and are still growing (I still very much consider myself a growing player as I still learn more and have more to accomplish). This is why I was very impressed with @Cake when he joined @Prince Adon and my Team BEST lobbies recently. Because he immediately went from mashing and began playing like someone willing to learn. He began adapting to neutral poking and spacing, and whiff punishment. He began utilizing Mila's range and frame advantage while fighting me. I was very impressed.

This is the sort of thing I love to see when I'm playing and helping other players, they show me that they want to learn the game. I try to do what I can to encourage a growing player. If you're an asshole, well then, I am going to treat you the same way you decided to treat me.

Then you have players who play so often and have an understanding of DOA, but they still lack in the areas I already mentioned. These kind of players are those that complain about "turtling" and "too much throwing" and so on and so forth. Or they are players that choose to ignore the fact that good spacing and proper punishment are great fundamentals, but don't do these things because it's boring or for some made up honor system. It irks me so much when I hear someone say;

"why do you always run away?" "all you do is throw me all the time" "all you do is the same thing over and over" "all you do is turtle".

It is not just from online randoms, I have witnessed several players here at FSD say these things. In threads, in their profile status, and on other people's profile status. I find it amusing how people say they can do something differently in a game like Street Fighter or Blazblue. When you're playing with the same basic fundamentals lol. Spacing, footsies, punishment, these things exist in these other fighters. Whether it is basic strike or throw punishment, it is simply that, PUNISHMENT.

These kind of players either do not actually utilize the game's Move Details system, do not understand how to utilize it, or choose NOT to utilize it. Doing so only hurts your growth, whether or not you choose to accept it, this is the truth.

There needs to be a visual tutorial done for players so that they can understand how Move Details actually works, and how to get the most of it, including the Free Training mode. People need to be aware of the correct method of testing out force techs, for example.

Sometimes it almost seems like some players are scared that others CAN actually get better, with the possibility of these other players beating them where it matters (offline in tournament play). Because they want to stay on top and just want more players to attend so they add money to the prize pot (again, not implying everyone is like this, but some are and some of us know who they are). This is what happened with Xcalibur Bladez last year in DOA5 Vanilla, when he went to NEC2013 and won with Helena. People refused to admit that he was a solid player, and instead, made excuses for losing because he played Helena (and is a very young player).

It was only after he won several other tournament majors, proving he is just a very strong player and can play several characters well at a high level. It was the same with me and Ayane. So many people had this stigma that this character cannot perform well in high level play or can't win tournaments. I've won so many tournaments with this character, and I've done something no other Ayane main has done in DOA5/DOA5U in a tournament major in the U.S.

One of the players who said Ayane doesn't have what it takes to compete in high level play, was defeated by me twice in top 8 at SCR (I am not putting that player on blast, I have nothing but respect for him and defeating him was no easy feat. It was an honor finally playing him offline because I look up to him and had the desire to prove him wrong). The only reason why I bring these things up are to prove the point of "do not underestimate a certain character just because someone hasn't been around to bring said character to the big stage".

I love DOA, and I do like our community for the most part. That's why I stick around to help when I can. I enjoy our offline scene, I want to keep playing so that I grow stronger as a player, student of the game, and an offline tournament player. These things are what drives me to continue playing. Oh, and because Ayane is awesome and her hair is purple.
 
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Cake

Well-Known Member
I posted this a few days ago in my profile, dont know if people actually cared to watch... but basicly, Day9 is one of the people I most admire.
Anyway, while this isnt exactly the same thing, it goes to show the power of a community, and how it BUILT ITSELF from the willingness of people to contribute and making people feel welcome, which made the new people want to contribute too and so on forth.
Negative emotions can snowball, but so can good ones. (is that from FMA?)

It's a presentation, but of you have the patience to stick through it (its not that long, 25mins), it at least makes up for a nice story, I guess.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1020558/Keeping-a-Community-for-Five
 

Gill Hustle

Well-Known Member
I guess this is sorta related, I along with Miss Maia were just being lazy this past Sunday with the stream and figured to do some Online Dojo Mode together.

It started with me asking about Helena (which was edited out, full archive here http://www.twitch.tv/ugslive/b/517648806 @Sir Skeleton and I went over Marie Rose a bit later on)

Here is the edited youtube portion with Ayane, Kokoro, Leifang, and some Kasumi:

 

Awesmic

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Not everyone is hesitant to contribute because of a fear of players "figuring them out". In my case, the main reason I don't contribute as much as I like to is because I'm afraid people will find SOMETHING wrong with whatever it is I share, and add insult to injury by bringing up the fact I underperformed in tournies or some HLP pops up and says it's "common knowledge", or say "we already found this tech, ha ha, you're slow", or that I didn't play up to their expectations for what I dish out, labeling me a fraud and such.

It's bad enough some people gossip about it. And personally, I don't want to deal with it. This is what I'm constantly afraid of. Other than that, I'd be more confident in doing this by now.
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
You are misunderstanding my point, Awesmic. If someone posts some tech, for example, people will read it (this is acknowledging someone else's experimenting), other people will test these things out to confirm whether it's solid or flawed. If it's solid, good job on the discovery.

If it's flawed, then an explanation from what others have tested in your findings will be discussed and you (and they) can continue to expand on what was found.

Maybe something else is there that you or someone else haven't pieced together yet. This is how discussion begins, it's how it flows. It's how you grow and it's how other players grow.

Being superstitious as often as you usually do is why your mindset is how it is. If I point something to another Ayane player, they are often acknowledging what I am saying. All the while giving their say as well. You have agreements and disagreements in discussion. Not everyone will agree with you.

This is why EmperorCow doesn't post tech or other informative findings as much as he used to because hardly anyone in the U.S. wanted to listen to a different side of what DOA has to offer. Or because most choose to stick with what works.

Hardly any Jannlee player will actually use his 9P as a range poke, despite how amazing it is. It's a fast high strike with good range, -1 on block. On counter hit he gets a stun and can enter his Dragon Stance. It gets him in SAFELY and has no lose lose situations to it.

Hardly any Ayane players will use Ayane's neutral for the same reason, except this can be used as a range poke and keep out tool. If it hits on counter hit, she gets a stun, has access to her roll and other strikes for a true 50/50.

Small simple things like these get overlooked and ignored.
 
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Force_of_Nature

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Some excellent, excellent discussion in here. There's nothing more that I'd want than for the DOA community to grow more than where it's at. I do what I can to make sure the DOA scene in my city is maintained and tries to grow as opposed to dying off like the other 3D fighters here (aside from Tekken somewhat). Whether I win or lose, I never put down any other players in my scene, show respect when respect is due, and answer any questions (if I get asked any). I never act like I'm better than anyone else and speak with them in a manner as if we're on the same level. Some key elements to maintaining a healthy scene in my opinion:

1. Showing up regularly
2. Bringing your own gear
3. Being open and welcoming to other people (DON'T bash other games there)
4. Communication and accomodation with other community members/new people
5. Promotion (I.e. Facebook, chats, streams, tournaments, etc.)
6. Encouraging other people to up their game where possible

As for the "Elitest" or "Pedestal Mentality", I hate it. It's stupid and needs to die in a fire. It's like that nasty uncle that serves no purpose in your life beyond torturing your soul. Nothing is gained whatsoever by anyone being an arrogant elitest. It's a destructive personality type that antagonizes people and discourages growth. No one has the right to act like they're better than someone else just because they won a couple tournaments. Never.

@Tenryuga hit the nail on the head. No one should ever feel discouraged from contributing anything to the community (unless the person is trying to come off more competent than they are or are trolling). In order for the DOA community to grow, everyone needs to feel like they're on the same wavelength (I.e. No "People Tiers"), and feel like they can make contributions - both small & large - without being dragged through the mud. I also do feel that some of the "Top Players" could take more of leadership role in this community because they have some of the most knowledge of the game and are the people that other DOA players look up to.

A lot of people, including (but not limited to) new players, unfortunately don't understand DOA as well as they should. As you can imagine these "perplexed" people would naturally feel uncomfortable contributing anything under fear of being shot down by the so-called "Top Players". These would include both newer players and intermediate players. Pretty much anyone that either isn't super experienced with DOA or super-knowledgeable. Quite frankly, that's a large chunk of people that should be active contributors, but either don't know how to go about it, or don't feel comfortable doing so. As for me, I personally suck with tech, and am a cheapass at times when I play, but it would be cool if I could contribute anything in the future.

I am glad, and am quite frankly impressed with @Cake that he has enlisted the assistance of Team BEST to help him get up to speed on DOA. I cannot describe how incredible this community would be if every newer player took your approach to the game. Major, major props to that. I personally hate playing DOA online at times and can't stand any lag, but if you'd want another person to play with online sometime, feel free to add me: Force_of_Nature9.

TL:DR. Overall, what we need is a system in place or a way to allow players of all skill levels to feel comfortable contributing info and tech without fear of backlashes.

*Inspiration speech* ...Oh, and because Ayane is awesome and her hair is purple.

Lol, TL:DR O_O, J/k this was really too amazing for words. Yeah, and I obviously agree with your final statement :ayane:
 
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Kohlrak

Well-Known Member
Not everyone is hesitant to contribute because of a fear of players "figuring them out". In my case, the main reason I don't contribute as much as I like to is because I'm afraid people will find SOMETHING wrong with whatever it is I share, and add insult to injury by bringing up the fact I underperformed in tournies or some HLP pops up and says it's "common knowledge", or say "we already found this tech, ha ha, you're slow", or that I didn't play up to their expectations for what I dish out, labeling me a fraud and such.

It's bad enough some people gossip about it. And personally, I don't want to deal with it. This is what I'm constantly afraid of. Other than that, I'd be more confident in doing this by now.

Just tell them that not everything is blatantly obvious. 3d fighters have a much higher learning curve, and it's because of this kind of thing. If there's a secret to what is "obvious," i'd *LOVE* to know what it is. I'm good at most game types, but fighters still evade me.

I am glad, and am quite frankly impressed with @Cake that he has enlisted the assistance of Team BEST to help him get up to speed on DOA. I cannot describe how incredible this community would be if every newer player took your approach to the game. Major, major props to that. I personally hate playing DOA online at times and can't stand any lag, but if you'd want another person to play with online sometime, feel free to add me: Force_of_Nature9.

What's this Team BEST?

Anyway, where i learn boxing, we typically do not wear our belts to show off rank. We believe that if someone's naturally talented, or knows things from other arts, putting them down keeps them from challenging us with their knowledge. If they can't challenge and push us, we can't get better ourselves.
 

Pocky Yoshi

Active Member
Not everyone is hesitant to contribute because of a fear of players "figuring them out". In my case, the main reason I don't contribute as much as I like to is because I'm afraid people will find SOMETHING wrong with whatever it is I share, and add insult to injury by bringing up the fact I underperformed in tournies or some HLP pops up and says it's "common knowledge", or say "we already found this tech, ha ha, you're slow", or that I didn't play up to their expectations for what I dish out, labeling me a fraud and such.

It's bad enough some people gossip about it. And personally, I don't want to deal with it. This is what I'm constantly afraid of. Other than that, I'd be more confident in doing this by now.

Sharing is caring sentiment is something some gamers and some top players lost nowadays. How can some Akuma mentality help others? It's people like Gouken who have prestigious pupils like Ryu and Ken. Even silly people like Dan has pupils better than the master like Blanka and Sakura. Even if Akuma is the best, he'll never have anyone to help him pass the torch. All he can do is say fight me to Ryu and demand he gives into the Satsui no Hado which Ryu rebukes...

Cheesy analogy, but thanks for sharing.
 

Cake

Well-Known Member
I personally hate playing DOA online at times and can't stand any lag, but if you'd want another person to play with online sometime, feel free to add me: Force_of_Nature9.

I thank you for your kind words, but I don't have a PS3, at least yet. Thank you very much for offering though.
 
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