Shit We Lost
- Thread starter grap3fruitman
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MajesticBlue
Active Member
I like the throw breaks in vf but the buffer allows you to tap and hold the P after a fuzzy guard to buffer your throw break. The way Doa accepts inputs doesn't allow for that kind of command as you know. Do you think it would have to be changed so that holding down F cancels all button inputs so you can throw break? I am curious if you have any ideas or if you would just have to tap and break it like a neutral throw but with a direction.
I don't see why throw punishment can't still exist. Couldn't throws that are guaranteed to connect be unbreakable as well as high counter throws? Also I am curious if they go a strike punishment route if they would regulate launcher speeds and stuff like Tekken. It would be cool to have options to do both imo. Depending on the character.
I don't see why throw punishment can't still exist. Couldn't throws that are guaranteed to connect be unbreakable as well as high counter throws? Also I am curious if they go a strike punishment route if they would regulate launcher speeds and stuff like Tekken. It would be cool to have options to do both imo. Depending on the character.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
It's not that simple. If it was, you would be right. We have too many backdoors out of critical. We have NO backdoors on the neutral. We don't even have what I would consider decent movement for most characters.
Backdoors on neutral would be good safe movement with a faster backdash (akira is a good example) and a solid throw break system. It's important that you make the neutral game as solid as possible and put as many backdoors there as you can, because as soon as you do it becomes possible to loosen the emphasis on the critical system and develop some real mind games via spacing and environment.
P1naatt1ke1tt0
Active Member
It would be bad, especially since 33T is also a forward motion, so a 6T break input would probably break both 6T and 33T... and 236T?? And 7T is low damage.
How am I trying to pass them off as my own? Am I claiming that I'm the first and only person to argue these things? Or am I just stating truths about the series? I've picked up a lot of things from you, Wah, Brady and others, yeah. So? If they're still true then why is it a problem that now I'm saying these things instead of you? They were right when Rikuto said them but now that grap3's saying the same things it's wrong? Oh, that makes perfect sense!
So... then you are privy to info no one else has.
Please, by all means, try and explain then. Feel free to make an entire thread dedicated to the subject because that sounds like a really interesting read or would you rather keep that info to yourself too and just point fingers at people while going "You don't know anything! I know everything!"
Why would I support a game I don't like? When they make a DOA game that I like again, only then will I make an attempt to go to events.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
It's not what is and isn't true, it's that you don't comprehend the relationship between the issues you are attempting to talk about while trying to lecture me of all people on the mechanics of the game. DOA's string delay is not an issue because you cannot throw punish it. In fact it would be very difficult to attempt a throw punish on reaction during a cancel for most strings anyway, even if they had no delay. Having to study the frame data between every attack in every string to see if it is actually punishable or not would be a headache, even for a high level player. Let alone the reaction time it would take to do it perfectly without getting hit by something that was free canceled into another strike.
The reason string delay is an issue is because it lets people attack continuously without any sense of finality on their part. You don't know when they've actually stopped so you can't start up your own offense. The fact that an attacker can take advantage of this uncertainty and combine it with unbreakable throws to keep the bad situation going just makes it even worse.
In what way? You can go to any event that Tom Lee goes to and hear just as much about the goings-on that I do. He travels pretty regularly and is very open to talking with people. You simply choose not to do this because it isn't worth your precious time and effort to do anything but troll on the internet about things you don't understand.
Perhaps if you actually attempted something as revolutionary as... oh, I don't know... opening a fucking dialogue you wouldn't be sitting in the dark all the time. And by opening a dialogue I don't mean getting on twitter and telling Team Ninja that their product sucks and they should all feel bad.
Well I've tried explaining it to you before in the past, but you always conveniently forget answers you don't like.
So I guess "You don't know anything! I know everything!" is going to have to do for now.
And remember, when the franchise was at the darkest point in its history with DOA 4, we all traveled across the country to see Team Ninja and try to get a word in to help it. We did that on our own dime.
If you can't understand the difference between what we do on our own dime to help this game, and what you do on the internet by just insulting people on twitter... well, frankly, you don't deserve any answers.
I'm sorry that my home foreclosure and dying mother take priority over a video game. I'll try to keep in mind that they shouldn't.
I don't expect pity but those things sort of make it hard to travel, yes, especially for a game I don't like. I mean, who would?
Julius Rage
Well-Known Member
PP is guaranteed after 6T so you're getting 36 damage.
I think different characters should have different punishment options.
Bass is a grappler so if somehow, someway, I mess and up whiff really badly against him, I think he should be able to land the F5 pretty easily. . .
oh and #DOAcentral
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
This has been something I've thought for a while. I play VF and Tekken and my characters feel smooth and evasive without even developing the more complex forms of movement. Then I play DOA and I feel so stiff with Kasumi who is an ninja and ninjas are supposed to be ultra evasive. I've seen vids of past DOA and the free step seemed really nice in those. I look at characters like Jann Lee and Lisa and get jealous because they can free step out of most pressure. I also think the environment should play more of a role as well because to me this is what DOA is all about.
I don't care much for quick CB but I would definitely like more legitimate frame data for the cast. I find it ridiculous that I can be at -9 for poking. Holds out of stun isn't that huge a deal. The only thing I dislike about them is that instant holds allow escape from some setups. Through proper use of lift stuns one has plenty of time to sit there and react to a hold or extend the stun with a quick poke. Some of you may choose not to believe this but there is such a thing as making reads with holds. If you are the type to just toss them out then have fun eating hi-counter damage; it's that simple. The same goes for players who think its wise to toss out throws on a stunned opponent before seeing the counter animation.
Imo this wouldn't be such a big deal if some characters were not forced to work the threshold to get good damage. From what I have seen of DOA 3.1 people get around 30 - 35% off Stun > Launch due to the air time, relaunches, and height off launchers. If we had more 2 in 1's and natural combos in stun as well as those things holds really shouldn't be a thing that players complain about.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
Uh....didn't make fun of me for using college as an excuse? Yeah...seriously man I love you and respect you. But need to respect the fact people got lives and they can't put all their effort into a video game. That's just not cool to say that grape's mama and his house is not as important than a game that has an offline tournament turnout best of 60.
Julius Rage
Well-Known Member
Simmer down children =/
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Yea, sorry to hear that but terrible shit happens in everyone's life buddy. Doesn't give you a free pass to spout nonsense.
It could all be true, and it's still a shitty thing to try and use as a card for winning an argument.
Let's see, has Rikuto lost anyone in the last few years? Let me try and think....
First, I was not "making fun" of it. That implies that I was having fun at one's pain, which simply wasn't the case, and I have not "made fun" of people's reasons for not attending offline events, ever. Everyone has shit going on in their lives they have to deal with. If you can attend, awesome. If you can't, that's too bad, I wish them the best, and hopefully next time they'll be able to make it? Running my events I focus on trying to make sure that those who were able to attend end up having a great time.
Second, you misinterpreted my post. For that, I apologize for writing it in a way that I wasn't aware it could be taken in.
Third, the post was in reference to the fact grap3 has been incapable of debating with Rikuto's points - the equivalent of folding his arms and snorting "hmph" in reply. He implies that there's some sort of magical back-door meetings that transpire in which people are getting full say of the direction of the game - which Rikuto acknowledged his argument and dismissed it with the fact most of the discussions are happening at tournament events towards one high member of the team. That team member is not only listening to one person, but a group of people (of various thoughts on the game), and taking the feedback back to the team. His decisions aren't final either, as Team NINJA's decisions for how to balance the game come from an amalgam of people and their experiences. That person also was not the only member of the team to come over stateside and discuss the game with the players who are showing up and promoting their game.
The point Rikuto made, and the answer to grap3's question, was that the team members were coming to public offline events to discuss the game with players who showed up at the event to give feedback, and they take feedback from all skill levels. In the end, the team will decide how to change the game based on that feedback.
Now, you might be wondering, what does this have to do with Grap3's mother or a foreclosed house? The point is, it doesn't. Because they are just reasons Grap3 threw out there in response to hearing that he could very well have been privy to many discussions on the game and its game systems had he attended some offline events or not be (frankly) a dick to Team NINJA and it's team members. So I don't know why grap3 felt it was justified to just throw up reasons why he didn't attend any offline events, because he had a question that was answered and didn't like the answer? And he just goes into some sort of defense mode by saying "It' really doesn't matter anyways what you say or what your replies are, because in the end I don't like this game." (paraphrasing obviously). It's really just frivolous.
Grap3 is upset, but not just because of how he thinks the game turned out. He is upset because he's been cut off from communications due to his own actions, not like there's any communications to share as the only information people are getting are from offline events and venues anyways (and there's only been one that I can think of: E3). Personally speaking here, mentioning his name to Shimbori at the launch event pissed off Shimbori because grap3 was just being a troll to the studio and creating propaganda against the team and the game itself. One specific example that I can think of was the Team tweeting they were staying up all night trying to put the finishing touches on "the best game this year" - referring to DOA5. Grap3's response was "But Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown is already out... ?". Of course, he does love VF5, but he's not any good in that game either, and if he actually did get good in the game he'll realize just how much the systems are the same between DOA and VF (Hint: You still have to rely on guessing in VF).
I've been debating them the whole time. Did you miss those huge walls of text?
Rikuto's made a big point that I have zero input because I don't bother going to events. So I gave a few reasons why I can't. I'd rather have kept that to myself because it's quite personal but Rikuto had to insist on throwing the "You don't come out ever" card over and over as a point.
Even if I could go to events right now, I probably wouldn't because I don't enjoy the game in its current state. Which is why I kind of want to pick up another game, so I can go to events for that game and then do DOA stuff on the side. Even now, for the people who enjoy the game, who can justify traveling for just DOA? They'd be crazy to.
No I'm not upset that I had ties cut off. Not sure where you got that idea. It's actually been easier because I've heard less stuff that got me infuriated. It seems like you guys are kind of in the dark yourselves, minus the feedback you're getting from Japanese players that are going to events there.
I am legitimately upset with how the game turned out. It had a lot more potential too and I think that's part of the reason why I'm upset. You personally wrote a thesis-length email to them with feedback compiled from the community. What became of that? I'm fairly certain they ignored everything except the button assignments.
But every time the community used a character's tool to its potential, either in pre-release events and even after launch? They took that away. You used the shit out of Bass's pick-up last August on stream. It's nerfed to hell. Rikuto wrecking everyone with Bayman at E3 2012 on stream? Nerf.
Who told them to make everyone's guard-breaks negative? Where did they pick that up from? Shit like that pisses me off.
Yeah, I suck at VF too. I'm aware that VF has "guessing" but every fighting game has guessing. We're talking about different kinds of guessing though and you, being much more experienced with fighting games than I, know that very well.
Am I the only one? The current Team Ninja does not have a good reputation with anyone. I didn't coin the term "Re-Hayashi" or give Ninja Gaiden 3 a terrible review. The casual market has a negative view of Team Ninja too and it wasn't me that did it. I'm just a drop in the ocean, a fucking nobody, why does one nobody's opinion get to them so much? If they really wanted to shut me up, they'd make a better game. They have you and everyone else telling them how to.
I'm "spouting nonsense" but I'm also "regurgitating" your words. So then you were spouting nonsense previously? What have I posted that's nonsense? You never specifically point anything out, you just run to the argument that I'm less experienced than you and that I don't go out to events.
MrMoon360
Well-Known Member
Raansu
Sorry Raansu. I gotta disagree with you there. Throw punishment is only guaranteed in DOA as far as I know. Tekken, VF, ,even SF-- The mechanic is certainly fair in these instances. Especially since these games grant true frame advantage where a throw is pretty much guaranteed. Then there are multiple grabs with different throw break mechanics. In Tekken, they give you an arm to look at-- as in which side are they grabbing from and which two buttons. In VF, you guess your opponents habit and what damage can be accomplished with what throw -- front, back, neutral.
I honestly don't think that's stupid if other things can be achieved in these instances if they're anticipating any throw.
Rikuto
In DOA however, as the system stands, some characters would be destroyed if throw breaks were implemented. There's already plenty of guessing in stun; why put this guessing in throws when they're not guaranteed in most instances? How do the slow punish holds then? For this reason, I think the balance system in DOA is broken anyway. Throw breaks are logical answers in defense, but they wouldn't work well in DOA.
Think about Bass for a second. His most powerful throw would be rendered useless because that would be the throw escape everyone would buffer after a hold or while in disadvantage if they were smart. But Bass has to work tooth and nail to get a throw because that's his source of guaranteed damage this time around (he's slow as fuck, as you know). But if he had equal or considerable alternatives to guaranteed damage, this would be okay. But he doesn't, because DOA's balance system is insufferable.
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