The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread
- Thread starter Matt Ponton
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Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
I have no idea now I think of it. It was 0 on block before it got nerfed right?
synce
Well-Known Member
5-5 sounds right to me. Honestly I disagree with every negative Alpha MU in the chart except maybe Akira but I never bothered to learn him. If you know how to tech roll, you can hold your own with Alpha. My biggest annoyances are Hayate and Leifang, but even those MU's are probably just 5.5-4.5 in their favor.
Thanks for good replies.
From my view alpha152 is a very strong character in general yes, it is no walk in the park. That said the arguments given can be mentioned against any other character on the roster, and not Hitomi in particular. However the fear of getting holded is always more present for Hitomi as she has a lot of 50/50 loops, and basically have to play the lure game a lot of the time. This is not the case with Alpha152 and she can go more "all out" than against other characters. Also most of alphas closing in moves can be poked if timed right with Hitomis own 46P, 236P or even 236K, and that for no small damage compared to other characters.
Most of what is said is true in theory and sometimes in play as well. Yes, 4P is relatively good and does track, but this is midpunch (same with 2P+K?). Unless you know Christie will do a sidestep it may be hard to pull that off, because it's not safe at all to use. It is slow and with limited range, and if you're in a guessing game, playing against Hitomi people will guess midpunch a lot, especially Christie given her situation. Alternatively her pokes go linear. Basically Christie has more approach options, and Hitomi has to read her, and not the other way around. Also, 2KK is slow with relatively bad range, where Christie basically can hit you with most of her sidesteps attacks if she times the range well without any real fear of getting hit, not to mention that if she actually does she'd be too far away to fear any follow up that can't be escaped. 2H+K is simply too slow against Christie, you'd be beaten to the hit 90% of the time in my experience. 2P followed by jab will be beaten by Christie's jab (just tested in training), so unless I misunderstood then that info is wrong. 1P may work in tight situations, but has short range. Christie will usually be out of that range.
That said, nothing of what you say is wrong, it is simply from my point of view a more often that not mindgame where Christie has more strings to play and more approaches to make. However, I see you're Kokoro/Eliot point, and I guess I can go with 4 instead.
Point is that getting close to Hitomi is not that hard, even for Helena, as Hitomi's pokes are unsafe. If Helena play the lowgame up close Hitomi will likely get massacred more times than not. That said she is not defenseless and 2P and 1P are both good, but we are speaking very varied loops where an opportunity may rarely come. Punchparry may be good, but Helena knows you can't use that mid-combo and plan accordingly. Also, Helena may simply start reading those low hits at certain loopstages, as there must be A LOT of them as Hitomi use quite some time to build damage down low. It is also that nature of the character that Helena is, you know always being down on her knees somewhere or going down low for a punch or kick, that she forces Hitomi to play a game she is not very good at. That I'd say is the strongest argument for a 4. Helena has her strengths and weaknesses yes, same with Hitomi, but some of Helena's strengths happens to be Hitomi's weakness which can't really be said the other way around. Helena is used to be outspeeded and "unsafe", it's part of her character in my view.
Again, I am all up for debate, and much of what I say may be subjective as things I find "easy" others find hard and vice versa. Also I might get very theoretical in "what are the risk/odds of success, and what damage can one capitalize on that risk/odds"-line of thinking and not necessarily what is easy/hard to do.
Another thing I'm wondering is why Kokoro is a 6. Never given it much thought as there aren't that many Kokoro's to go around. Anyone got any smart comments on that?
From my view alpha152 is a very strong character in general yes, it is no walk in the park. That said the arguments given can be mentioned against any other character on the roster, and not Hitomi in particular. However the fear of getting holded is always more present for Hitomi as she has a lot of 50/50 loops, and basically have to play the lure game a lot of the time. This is not the case with Alpha152 and she can go more "all out" than against other characters. Also most of alphas closing in moves can be poked if timed right with Hitomis own 46P, 236P or even 236K, and that for no small damage compared to other characters.
Most of what is said is true in theory and sometimes in play as well. Yes, 4P is relatively good and does track, but this is midpunch (same with 2P+K?). Unless you know Christie will do a sidestep it may be hard to pull that off, because it's not safe at all to use. It is slow and with limited range, and if you're in a guessing game, playing against Hitomi people will guess midpunch a lot, especially Christie given her situation. Alternatively her pokes go linear. Basically Christie has more approach options, and Hitomi has to read her, and not the other way around. Also, 2KK is slow with relatively bad range, where Christie basically can hit you with most of her sidesteps attacks if she times the range well without any real fear of getting hit, not to mention that if she actually does she'd be too far away to fear any follow up that can't be escaped. 2H+K is simply too slow against Christie, you'd be beaten to the hit 90% of the time in my experience. 2P followed by jab will be beaten by Christie's jab (just tested in training), so unless I misunderstood then that info is wrong. 1P may work in tight situations, but has short range. Christie will usually be out of that range.
That said, nothing of what you say is wrong, it is simply from my point of view a more often that not mindgame where Christie has more strings to play and more approaches to make. However, I see you're Kokoro/Eliot point, and I guess I can go with 4 instead.
Point is that getting close to Hitomi is not that hard, even for Helena, as Hitomi's pokes are unsafe. If Helena play the lowgame up close Hitomi will likely get massacred more times than not. That said she is not defenseless and 2P and 1P are both good, but we are speaking very varied loops where an opportunity may rarely come. Punchparry may be good, but Helena knows you can't use that mid-combo and plan accordingly. Also, Helena may simply start reading those low hits at certain loopstages, as there must be A LOT of them as Hitomi use quite some time to build damage down low. It is also that nature of the character that Helena is, you know always being down on her knees somewhere or going down low for a punch or kick, that she forces Hitomi to play a game she is not very good at. That I'd say is the strongest argument for a 4. Helena has her strengths and weaknesses yes, same with Hitomi, but some of Helena's strengths happens to be Hitomi's weakness which can't really be said the other way around. Helena is used to be outspeeded and "unsafe", it's part of her character in my view.
Again, I am all up for debate, and much of what I say may be subjective as things I find "easy" others find hard and vice versa. Also I might get very theoretical in "what are the risk/odds of success, and what damage can one capitalize on that risk/odds"-line of thinking and not necessarily what is easy/hard to do.
Another thing I'm wondering is why Kokoro is a 6. Never given it much thought as there aren't that many Kokoro's to go around. Anyone got any smart comments on that?
KidArk
Active Member
Okay I plan to do a Gen Fu MU but before I start, is there anyway to see what everyone has said about each match up so I can find how everyone feels vs genfu first? Is there an archive or something with just the MU data or do I just sift through 67 pages of... arguments, heart break , etc to find it, either way is fine, it's just the latter would really impede how fast I can put this out.
Before someone says it yes I know there's a spreadsheet but as I am not as affluent as the next guy with let's say christie i'd like to see what they say causes her to beat him etc.
Before someone says it yes I know there's a spreadsheet but as I am not as affluent as the next guy with let's say christie i'd like to see what they say causes her to beat him etc.
KidArk
Active Member
Gen v Helena 5v4 EXCUSE ME? Gen Fu’s 11i Mid just about locks down Helena along with 4p to punish when she’s out of range her only tracking option out of FT can be crushed , gen can parry to all of the other options there’s no way she’ll really sit there and grab every time out of force tech , also Gen H+K & 9K Both crush MID AND LOW WAKE UP , he can literally walk right into your face after a knockdown and DARE you to wake up , use 9K for mid wake up kick it'll give you back turn then you just senpuu reset and profit. Once that’s in Helena’s head she’s forced to wake-up . Gen can walk over half the cast after a knockdown as he doesn’t have to worry about wake up kicks AT ALL Imo it’s just silly to see Gen vs Helena, Helena who's notoriously been said to have nothing and see that she’s Fu’s bad match up? Sorry I have more coming but.. I need to post. Also to everyone getting ready to say mid punches blah gen fu blah, linear blah blah, 117 damage 12i throw or 107ish throw WITH a force tech , force tech possible against the wall as well so.. yeah.
KidArk
Active Member
Then what possiibly does helena have that can't be beaten by Fu? It's a fine match up forr Bayman an he's essentially tankwheel deficicent in thiis MU.
KidArk
Active Member
I wasn't saying you were defending it ii was just wondering what in her arsenal was saidd to beat fu. It's also more like a mid , low and any option but hold, "crush" when implemented correctly it even works on special wake ups. I'm sorry, I thought I hadd made sure to search thoroughly before talking about those crush poperties, was this mentioned in doa 4 and down gen forums? Newest thing in these forums is gen fu, force techs.
Based on the current in progress match-up chart, here are the current tiers:
June 25, 2013 9:14 AM (GMT - 5)
S: Leifang, Ayane, Christie, Kasumi, Sarah
A: Jann Lee, Akira, ALPHA-152
B: Gen Fu, Pai, Hayabusa, Brad Wong, Helena, Mila, Bayman, Hitomi, Kokoro, Lisa, Hayate, Tina
C: Rig, Zack, Bass, Eliot
Currently, the following are marked Final Draft: Akira, Ayane, Bass, Bayman, Christie, Hitomi, Leifang, Sarah, and Zack. All other characters are still in progress.
June 25, 2013 9:14 AM (GMT - 5)
S: Leifang, Ayane, Christie, Kasumi, Sarah
A: Jann Lee, Akira, ALPHA-152
B: Gen Fu, Pai, Hayabusa, Brad Wong, Helena, Mila, Bayman, Hitomi, Kokoro, Lisa, Hayate, Tina
C: Rig, Zack, Bass, Eliot
Currently, the following are marked Final Draft: Akira, Ayane, Bass, Bayman, Christie, Hitomi, Leifang, Sarah, and Zack. All other characters are still in progress.
Koompbala
Well-Known Member
It was the fact that you capitalized it "H+K" "it crushes mid and low wake up" you made it seem like it was a new discovery when its not. You could've of been putting emphasis on how good it is for wake up. That's another possibility. Also Gen Fu tech in general is not really new that man hardly changed. H+K always jumped so the fact its a low crush is a given. Although it was a high in 4, so as for sweeps went. It would jump over the attack and nothing else since it was a high.
Telly-Da-King
New Member
Nice...But Helena In B Really??? Lol
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
Zack ain't C, but hey it's whatever.
We've been over this. The reason a character is in a tier list is due to their match-ups. One, it's very possible for a character to have 50-50 matchups and still place high in tournaments due to the player using them. Just like it's theoretically possible for a character in the C tier to win a tournament. Two, no one has suggested/argued for any changes to the Helena matchups.
The character just has to deal with less options at the lower levels than a character that has more options at a higher level.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
This is pretty much it. Helena's blender is good but she needs to make a decent read to capitalise on it, +4 is enough to force the opponent into a bad situation but it is nowhere near enough to do whatever she likes.
A lot of her mix ups can be fuzzy guarded and outside of her fairly slow lows she has no way of opening up opponents without heavily delaying her strings. Against most characters she has to play defensively at the start of the round. If the opponent has an i11 mid she has no options to beat that outside of countering. Look at Jann Lee, Sarah and Gen Fu, all bad match ups for her partly because right from the start she has no way to get any momentum going. Her fastest mid 3P even though it is i12 loses to every other i12 mid in the game from what I have seen so she is forced to let the opponent set the pace of the match, at least initially.
She has some decent tools but she has some very glaring deficits which all but maybe two of the cast can exploit pretty easily.
As Wah said even though she performs well at tournaments she has a good balance of strengths and weaknesses which means her match ups will quite often be 50/50, or slightly in or against her favour.
Last thing, even though Helena does fairly well at tournaments you have to notice only a few people can do this with her. XCal, Mamba and EMann consistently perform well but almost all the other Helena players barely make any progress. I think this enough to cast doubt on the idea that she is top or even high tier.
Bushido
Well-Known Member
Now that I have more experience I can post my revised chart for Kokoro
v. Alpha 5-5
v. Ayane 4-6
v. Bass 6-4
v. Bayman 4.5-5.5 (4-6)
v. Brad 4-6
v. Christie 4-6, not 3-7, 4-6
v. Eliot 5-5
v. Gen Fu 4-6
v. Hayate 6-4
v. Helena 5-5
v. Hitomi 4.5-5.5 (5-5)
v. Jann Lee 4-6
v. Kasumi 4-6
v. LeiFang 4-6
v. Lisa 5-5
v. Mila 5-5
v. Pai 6-4
v. Rig 5-5
v. Ryu 5-5
v. Sarah 4-6
v. Tina 5-5
v. Zack 6-4
v. Alpha 5-5
v. Ayane 4-6
v. Bass 6-4
v. Bayman 4.5-5.5 (4-6)
v. Brad 4-6
v. Christie 4-6, not 3-7, 4-6
v. Eliot 5-5
v. Gen Fu 4-6
v. Hayate 6-4
v. Helena 5-5
v. Hitomi 4.5-5.5 (5-5)
v. Jann Lee 4-6
v. Kasumi 4-6
v. LeiFang 4-6
v. Lisa 5-5
v. Mila 5-5
v. Pai 6-4
v. Rig 5-5
v. Ryu 5-5
v. Sarah 4-6
v. Tina 5-5
v. Zack 6-4
Got any additional info about this conclusion? I kinda feel the same way about Kokoro and Hitomi being equals at approax 5-5, but generally speaking this match up is so rare that I hardly have any good statistics/theory craft on the setup, so I guess it could go either way.