^ That sounds so silly. That's basically saying once that happens, she wins. That is not true.
The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread
- Thread starter Matt Ponton
- Start date
Here is Ayane's finalized match-up chart. I had to review some match-ups and analyze both her important tools and opposing characters to get conclusions. The match-ups are listed from left to right (ex. 7-3 being in Ayane's favor).
vs Akira (6-4)
vs Alpha (5-5)
vs Ayane (5-5)
vs Bass (6-4)
vs Bayman (6-4)
vs Brad Wong (7-3)
vs Christie (6-4)
vs Eliot (6-4)
vs Genfu (4-6)
vs Hayabusa (6-4)
vs Hayate (6-4)
vs Helena (6-4)
vs Hitomi (6-4)
vs Jannlee (6-4)
vs Kasumi (6-4)
vs Kokoro (6-4)
vs La Mariposa (6-4)
vs Leifang (5-5)
vs Mila (5-5)
vs Pai (6-4)
vs Rig (6-4)
vs Sarah (5-5)
vs Tina (6-4)
vs Zack (6-4)
A few things to consider here about Ayane; Faster jabs do matter, however, they do not give her much of a problem because she can crush highs all too well. Any character that needs a high(s) to open up often does not put this character in danger. Kasumi, Christie, and Pai are not that scary up close against her. Do not bring Christie's JAK into consideration here, because JAK loses to 4P and 6PK, period.
Ayane's 64H advance mid punch hold really is something to look out for, because that defensive hold does everything her 64H+P does. That alone potentially strips away a lot of characters mid punches up close because of her Vortex.
Ayane also has the right tools to handle the character cast. Characters with sabakis and special punch holds are not that threatening. K, KK, 6K and 8K are really strong against these kind of tools. K is 12 frames and is a high, and beats mids of the same frame. KK stuns on normal hit and is very difficult to stagger out of (if you decide to stagger instead low hold, but even then you'll get low thrown if you try to low hold out of a simple K).
What really makes Ayane less effective, are mid parries. Genfu in particular. The only characters that can negate her Vortex are Bayman and Leifang because they have back turn parries. But aside from this, those two match-ups are not that terrifying for her.
Ayane cannot be a slouch in any of her match-ups. But with great care, she dominates most characters and can keep the rest in check.
I left Mila as 5-5 because I still don't know her enough to give a better review of.
vs Akira (6-4)
vs Alpha (5-5)
vs Ayane (5-5)
vs Bass (6-4)
vs Bayman (6-4)
vs Brad Wong (7-3)
vs Christie (6-4)
vs Eliot (6-4)
vs Genfu (4-6)
vs Hayabusa (6-4)
vs Hayate (6-4)
vs Helena (6-4)
vs Hitomi (6-4)
vs Jannlee (6-4)
vs Kasumi (6-4)
vs Kokoro (6-4)
vs La Mariposa (6-4)
vs Leifang (5-5)
vs Mila (5-5)
vs Pai (6-4)
vs Rig (6-4)
vs Sarah (5-5)
vs Tina (6-4)
vs Zack (6-4)
A few things to consider here about Ayane; Faster jabs do matter, however, they do not give her much of a problem because she can crush highs all too well. Any character that needs a high(s) to open up often does not put this character in danger. Kasumi, Christie, and Pai are not that scary up close against her. Do not bring Christie's JAK into consideration here, because JAK loses to 4P and 6PK, period.
Ayane's 64H advance mid punch hold really is something to look out for, because that defensive hold does everything her 64H+P does. That alone potentially strips away a lot of characters mid punches up close because of her Vortex.
Ayane also has the right tools to handle the character cast. Characters with sabakis and special punch holds are not that threatening. K, KK, 6K and 8K are really strong against these kind of tools. K is 12 frames and is a high, and beats mids of the same frame. KK stuns on normal hit and is very difficult to stagger out of (if you decide to stagger instead low hold, but even then you'll get low thrown if you try to low hold out of a simple K).
What really makes Ayane less effective, are mid parries. Genfu in particular. The only characters that can negate her Vortex are Bayman and Leifang because they have back turn parries. But aside from this, those two match-ups are not that terrifying for her.
Ayane cannot be a slouch in any of her match-ups. But with great care, she dominates most characters and can keep the rest in check.
I left Mila as 5-5 because I still don't know her enough to give a better review of.
Genfu shuts Ayane down man .. no way is it 4-6 ..its 5-5 if you wanna be nice about it. that parry ....
and you really underestimate Christie .. granted Ayane can crush .. but that doesn't eliminate the fact that Christie is all round faster and has great spacing and far reach ... they are pretty even in the reach department.
Same with Kasumi really ... hell even Pai ..
Pai in particular has two 11 frame mids and insane potential from lows.
not only that ... Kasumi is fast AND has the mid parry game ..and the reach game.
Jann lee is also not 6-4 .. simply cuz that OH stuffs her .. not to mention that shes super light and she gets hurt bad with extra damage from juggles.. plus he has good reach .. crushes are not very relevant in this match-up either. I think its even.. (5-5)
on a side note ...
looking at the tier list ..
people are so sleeping on Akira ..
and after 1.03A i dont think Hitomi is as weak as shes being portrayed
Kokoro is fricken easy mode ... she needs to be a bit higher up as well...
and you really underestimate Christie .. granted Ayane can crush .. but that doesn't eliminate the fact that Christie is all round faster and has great spacing and far reach ... they are pretty even in the reach department.
Same with Kasumi really ... hell even Pai ..
Pai in particular has two 11 frame mids and insane potential from lows.
not only that ... Kasumi is fast AND has the mid parry game ..and the reach game.
Jann lee is also not 6-4 .. simply cuz that OH stuffs her .. not to mention that shes super light and she gets hurt bad with extra damage from juggles.. plus he has good reach .. crushes are not very relevant in this match-up either. I think its even.. (5-5)
on a side note ...
looking at the tier list ..
people are so sleeping on Akira ..
and after 1.03A i dont think Hitomi is as weak as shes being portrayed
Kokoro is fricken easy mode ... she needs to be a bit higher up as well...
Genfu gives Ayane problems, yes, but he does not shut her down completely. Mids are not the only thing Ayane has as keep out tools. Jannlee's Dragon Gunner is problematic, but it is not hard to react to. I have done 64H+P to DG on reaction quite a few times. Being a light weight doesn't mean much of anything, Sarah is also a light weight, yet she's a very strong character. So is Kasumi. And, lol, crushes are "always" relevant in a match-up. Otherwise, sheer speed would always dominate the board.
I don't think you're really taking things into consideration with these match-ups. Speed does not hurt this character. Ayane can handle speed just fine. 9 frame jabs do not scare her from doing anything. Her 64H hold hurts a lot of characters mids (that includes Genfu), you cannot ignore the advantages that hold gives her. Ayane and Christie are not equal in the range game. Most of Christie's options at range get slapped by 3H+K, BT 4H+K, BT4K, BT4P, BT2K and BT6P. JAK is completely shut down by 4P.
Kasumi vs Ayane "used" to be 5-5, as in completely balanced. Kasumi is still a challenge up close, however, aside from Ayane high crushing her, Kasumi's mids (6P, 4P and 3P) are weaker because 64H exists. That exchange is great reward into oki.
Pai has two 11 mid "punches" that are vulnerable to 64H, that's not much of a difference. 3P+K is 5 frame throw punishable. I don't think Pai will risk that when she already has her 6P that is safe.
There are a lot of things I'm taking into perspective about these match-ups, not just a few things. You need to look at ALL of the options, risk and reward and tools Ayane has, as well as the other characters.
I'll reply on the parries but I'm short on time here. So I may edit this message when I have more time on my hands to give more of an explanation if you guys want. Kasumi's parries are nothing to be played with yes.... When she's at +7, she gets there, she's guaranteed either a free juggle (6P6K > PKK7K > 6P+K > KK), or a CB (6PK > 2K > CB which is situational). However, except for the advanced parries, she has a 50/50 situations which isn't bad at all at times.
Edited Notes:
While the parries "can" slow down Ayane, this still doesn't take away from the fact Ayane has a tool that softens up her pressure game. It makes it hard for her to use mids effectively, making her highs & even her lows somewhat predictable & she has the crushes to deal with them. Along with Ayane's range tools in the spacing game, which is where she excels at. Kasumi's 66P & 9K whiff punishers doesn't scare Ayane because she's the 1 happening to get in closer along with the rest of her ranged tools that she has opposed to Ayane's. That makes it even harder for her. Kasumi & Ayane both have advanced mid kick holds (46H for both) so no disputing there.
Like Hajinshinobi said, the 64H+P slows her pressure game down (mids), along with her crushes. Kasumi has to play cautiously overall. That's why this is an annoying match for Kasumi.
Edited Notes:
While the parries "can" slow down Ayane, this still doesn't take away from the fact Ayane has a tool that softens up her pressure game. It makes it hard for her to use mids effectively, making her highs & even her lows somewhat predictable & she has the crushes to deal with them. Along with Ayane's range tools in the spacing game, which is where she excels at. Kasumi's 66P & 9K whiff punishers doesn't scare Ayane because she's the 1 happening to get in closer along with the rest of her ranged tools that she has opposed to Ayane's. That makes it even harder for her. Kasumi & Ayane both have advanced mid kick holds (46H for both) so no disputing there.
Like Hajinshinobi said, the 64H+P slows her pressure game down (mids), along with her crushes. Kasumi has to play cautiously overall. That's why this is an annoying match for Kasumi.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
Those don't mean much to Ayane at all. For Kasumi to get anything guaranteed off a standard parry she needs to be either at +7 or catch the opponent tossing out strings. Anything less than that is frame advantage that helps her press her offense. Ayane crushes Kasumi's jabs and takes good care of Kasumi's mids with her advanced mid punch hold, which puts Ayane in a prime position to use her vortex. And Ayane WILL get a 64H on Kasumi during their match; it is inevitable. When Kasumi is put in the vortex her mid parry does naught but allow her to escape it because the move she parried will most likely have been a 66KK4. Ayane is too far away for Kasumi to capitalize on that and forces it her to deal with Ayane's range and spacing; Especially if Ayane chooses to do 8P to give herself additional distance. In other words the parry just gives Kasumi a moment's reprieve. She escapes the vortex but has to deal with the worst part of this match-up IMO.
Reach game? Kasumi has a reach game in this match-up? You mean the 66PP guard break that Ayane has many ways to deal with? (Duck second P and 46T throw punish with of all things, 2P after 66P, 4P after 66P). The 66K that has an already poor hitbox and gets avoided by Ayane's spins? The 3P+K that gets her Ayane's 3H+K to the face? I can go on but the point is Kasumi has NOTHING at range for Ayane to be afraid of.
Bushido
Well-Known Member
You guys are glorifying Jak when it's not even all that special. If you look at Jak alone: all options are punishable, two options stepable (the punches), and can even get interrupted by non-tracking mids. Granted, it takes timing on BOTH parts of the match up, but Christie window is a lot smaller.
Kokoro can interrupt Jak with the last punch of 6P+K P, 6KP, and 6P6P. The only time she can't is if the Christie player is SPOT ON with their timing, which isn't going to happen every time. Even mid string, if Kokoro is on block and Christie Jaks, then you can interrupt with a 6PPP. If the Christie player also tries to do Jak 44, you can 66P, 236 AND 214P, or even 7K and get that free launcher. These were tested offline by three other people. Not online, offline.
As a Kokoro player, it takes patience, but when the Christie player messes up, Kokoro can end it quickly with her superior stun game, mix ups, and incredible damage output.
Saying 3-7 because of Jak is implying that Christie can just Jak all day and Kokoro can't do anything which isn't the case. Kokoro is definitely at a disadvantage, and this is her worst matchup. However, it's not 7-3 worthy, especially only because of Jak. That's why I said it's 4-6, not 3-7
FlamingMuffin
Active Member
Unless they do double JAK and then 6P+KP/6KP/6P6P will all miss and you're open for punishment.
JAK attacks being punishable doesn't mean much when a good Christie will be using JAK to CH you, not to mention they can delay the string options that come out.
Say Christie is at -5. You can't throw punish her, but you have advantage. For most characters, a good tracking mid/low would be a good option here. This would stuff SS/JAK and would still probably beat out her (now) i14 jab.
Now we have Kokoro. She doesn't have a tracking mid/low, so she has to guess yet again. Will Chrisite JAK? If so, I could 1T, but if she doesn't I'm possibly getting HCB or even launched. F+K will be evaded by JAK. 6PP will be evaded by JAK. ANY attack she does can be evaded by JAK.
Now you could say "Well, you could just delay the strings so it will retrack and CH Christie. Or I could just wait and see what she does". But guess what? By delaying, you have nullified your +5.
I have played good Christies on XBL, and they use JAK as they should. It's a giant pain.
Bushido
Well-Known Member
Double Jak has the same concept, they still have to be spot on with their timing. If she Jaks the first input of one of those strings and her timing is off, she WILL get hit.
I never said this matchup wasn't a giant pain. I'm just saying it's certainly not 3-7 because of Jak alone. It's her worst matchup for sure, but it takes patience on Koko's side and good reads on BOTH sides.
The point Bushido is trying to make, is that Kokoro DOES have some leeway to combat Christie's JAK, even if isn't a true get out of jail free card. The options are still there. You definitely have take real scenarios into consideration of how and when Christie is going to apply JAK. But Christie isn't always going to do a double JAK, Kokoro isn't always going to successfully interrupt a JAK or JAK followup.
It's still a good idea to at least know that you have option(s) to combat something. No matter how large or small.
It's still a good idea to at least know that you have option(s) to combat something. No matter how large or small.
FlamingMuffin
Active Member
I know what he's trying to say. That's what makes it 3-7, and not 2-8.
In addition to JAK, Christie is faster, has better tracking, better GBs, better crushes (Christie can hop over lows), is arguably safer and can string pressure more effectively. Her damage output isn't terrible either.
If Christie is 4-6, then Kokoro is at 5-5 (or greater) vs everyone else.
In addition to JAK, Christie is faster, has better tracking, better GBs, better crushes (Christie can hop over lows), is arguably safer and can string pressure more effectively. Her damage output isn't terrible either.
If Christie is 4-6, then Kokoro is at 5-5 (or greater) vs everyone else.
What do you think Kokoro vs Ayane is?
FlamingMuffin
Active Member
I would say 4.5-5.5 in Ayane's favour but since 0.5's aren't applicable, I would have to go with 5-5. 66P/214P can help control Ayane's spacing although they are vulnerable to the advance hold. Kokoro also has better throw damage and overall juggle damage. Ayane has her crushes, is arguably safer, and has a better 2P (while Kokoro has the faster 6P).
66P and 214P do not control Ayane's spacing in DOA5. Side step and 64H exist, Kokoro's 6P (as well as every other character with a 12 frame mid) losses out to Ayane's K/KK, which is also 12 frames and is a high. Ayane's P and K are there to deal with different tools from other characters. When there is a special punch hold or sabaki involved, K takes care of that (not against Eliot obviously). And her P handles the rest. K also has tracking, so side stepping is not happening here.
Most of Kokoro's most effective ways of approaching Ayane, and her neutral mids while up close, are hurt by 64H, and are hurt hard (this also applies to every other character whose fastest neutral pokes are mid punches). 64H goes straight into the Vortex.
Furthermore, once Ayane launches you, you are going to deal with her Vortex because she can get force tech from normal hit launchers, counter hit launch, and stun to launch (any launch height for that matter).
Unless Kokoro mindfucked Ayane up close somehow, her high string pressure doesn't bother her. Against an on-point Ayane, she will make sure you regret trying to pressure her through highs while up close, and make sure you try to use your mids and lows.
Most of Kokoro's most effective ways of approaching Ayane, and her neutral mids while up close, are hurt by 64H, and are hurt hard (this also applies to every other character whose fastest neutral pokes are mid punches). 64H goes straight into the Vortex.
Furthermore, once Ayane launches you, you are going to deal with her Vortex because she can get force tech from normal hit launchers, counter hit launch, and stun to launch (any launch height for that matter).
Unless Kokoro mindfucked Ayane up close somehow, her high string pressure doesn't bother her. Against an on-point Ayane, she will make sure you regret trying to pressure her through highs while up close, and make sure you try to use your mids and lows.
FlamingMuffin
Active Member
You're kind of saying the same thing about Ayane and her Vortex. Except I'm not as scared vs Ayanes. She's far enough back as to if she wants to throw, she has to step forward a bit (making it ever slightly more obvious) and Ayane's lows aren't overly scary (compared to say Helena's 2F+K). It's a very good oki tool definitely, but it's not Helenas vortex.
I guess I just don't feel Kokoro vs Ayane is as bad as say Lei/Hitomi. I'm genuinely afraid to attack Lei at neutral because of a) Mid parries b) Punch parries c) Mid kick counter that does at least 100dmg on any counter level. In stun, mid K counter will still do 100+. Hitomi same thing (punch parry + mid kick counter).
Ayane's 46H does around 55-65 with oki where I get another chance to stop you. If I guess correctly that you used 46H I get 97-103 with my throw.
Kokoro can get in with 1KK, 1P, 6P+K and 46P all of which evade 46H. Her 7P can also evade P/K at neutral (although 2P/6P...or anything else is a concern obviously lol).
214P can help push her out of her comfort zone (like 3F+K and max 4P range). Not all characters can do this.
I still think it's in Ayane's favour, but not the extent as it is with Leifang.
Of course, my experience vs good Ayanes is limited, so just going off what I've played against.
The correct notation for the advanced mid punch hold is 64H, not 46H. 46H is her advanced mid kick hold.
You are going to be guessing at my options, and if you do press buttons after being counter hit by anything, you are in trouble. Particularly with 3H+K strength, which leads into 70+ damage just because you decided to press a button after oki, or my choice to force you up and make you guess all over again. Also, a standard PP will keep you in check with the 664H+P attempts, as well as 8H+K and 8H+P.
You're not as scared against Ayane's Vortex because you haven't played anyone who knows how to make great use of it. And honestly, I don't really see hardly any good Ayane players online, so that last bit I can at least agree with.
You are going to be guessing at my options, and if you do press buttons after being counter hit by anything, you are in trouble. Particularly with 3H+K strength, which leads into 70+ damage just because you decided to press a button after oki, or my choice to force you up and make you guess all over again. Also, a standard PP will keep you in check with the 664H+P attempts, as well as 8H+K and 8H+P.
You're not as scared against Ayane's Vortex because you haven't played anyone who knows how to make great use of it. And honestly, I don't really see hardly any good Ayane players online, so that last bit I can at least agree with.
I am not saying ayane is bad she IS one of the best characters, but that match-up list has a huge underestimation of the rest of the cast
I don't think you really understand Ayane nearly enough then. There are a lot of things that Ayane does better than the rest of the cast. All she is really missing are parries, which is something she's never needed (64H is an incredible substitute), but that's all that's missing to make her complete. And she'd just be silly if she had them.
She has the right tools to combat everyone else, it's no easy road, and she requires you to be precise and calculative. But she has solid match-ups across the board. She is not crippled in majority of her match-ups.
She has the right tools to combat everyone else, it's no easy road, and she requires you to be precise and calculative. But she has solid match-ups across the board. She is not crippled in majority of her match-ups.
To add onto this because this is being talked about a lot, you guys also have to be considerate of a player's decision-making. Kokoro can or will eventually catch onto JAK & then do something about it with the tools you all just named. If the Kokoro player is not, then they have to be just hitting buttons or don't know how to adapt to it, & no I'm not downplaying ANYBODY in this thread in terms of good/bad players -___-. I've seen a good Kokoro & Christie player go head to head offline to know this.
Edit: Before you bring up that the "character can be bad & the player can be good" or something like this, I'm not saying that. I already know how that goes. I'm saying that a particular match-up goes along with the idea of decisions. That's all
Kasumi vs Hayabusa :5-5
This is a continuation of the Ryu spoiler. Those of you (Busa players) saying that "Kasumi's speed is a difference", you're wrong. 9/11/12 is definitely something to handle yes, but on R1F. You're downplaying Hayabusa for his speed way too much & not looking at what he has to pose a threat to her. His Ong parry is something that Kasumi has to fear. Not only he has this, he has the izuna holds if he's reading her correctly. Hayabusa is also able to use ranged tools to keep her out.Overall, he's damaging her with these defensive tools not to mention he has a strong damage output.
He's not "all gimmicks" at least not against her. As long as he isn't indecisive on decisions, then both characters have tools that 1 another hate.
This match is a deadlock.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
You know what I find interesting? Basically what you've been saying is that the Christie player has to mess up to give Kokoro a chance to take the advantage back. That is not really an argument to make it 6-4 instead of 7-3.
Another thing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, just like sidestepping, you can not hit Christie out of JAK with any linear attack, if she does not attack from it. PP attacks can hit sidestepping attacks when the sidestepper attacks from the sidestep, but if he doesn't, it won't. It's when Christie attacks from it that the linear attacks can hit her. So, basically Kokoro is completely dependent on the Christie player in this case too.
You can delay attacks after blocking, but then, Christie can easily start interrupting you instead of going into JAK because of her speed. If you stop delaying, Christie can simply do JAK. The whole point is that Christie has a much easier time adapting to Kokoro, while Kokoro has to wait for the mistake of Christie. She has no other way. Mistakes by the other player is not to be used as if it's an advantage of the other character.
But hey, what do I know.