The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread
- Thread starter Matt Ponton
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MajesticBlue
Active Member
A few of my thoughts on Ryus match ups.
Helena.How does Ryu have better starting options then Helena is what I want to know. Unless they toned down her (3)P. It beat pretty much every option he had. They did fix his hit boxes though so this match up may no be as bad as it used to be.
LeiFang. I don't know much about post patch but she pretty much crushed everything he did constantly. Advantage, disadvantage it didn't matter. She really sets the pace of the match against him and its annoying.
Christie. After a few advanced holds you become a little more hesitant to hit buttons. So vs characters with really strong holds it can be tough. Christie has to hit buttons to get that damage. When you get blindly held for a fourth of your life or more I know I tend to start thinking a little more. So that Izuna factor again...
Hayate. I see so much reading from neutral I see it as 5-5. Ryu has some good tools but I feel Hayate can shut him down if he wants to. Both take lots of risks. It has been proven that not many of us view it so though. It comes down to how you view the game and reading. Ryu is stronger but the match up is read heavy so imo it is null.
Bayman. Wasn't this a terrible match up for him pre patch? hmm i wonder if 3P will stop tank roll..interesting. I wanna give this one more thought. I say don't count Bayman down yet. Just my gut though.
Lisa. Omg that 12 frame mid and 1P mixups! I need way more experience with this match up haha.
I feel like a lot of Ryus match ups were balanced out post patch just because of his how I feel he is played. He has some of the best holds in the game. While risky as heck the reward is good for coming out in one frame. He has one of the best stun games period. So you gotta make good reads all around but he has the damage behind it to make it good. The 6K buff was by far the most important imo. Neutral your reading or gimmicking. When you nab a stun they have to hold or die. He is pretty good now but the level of reads you have to make with him is just way too much for my taste. Sadly most of the time he has to commit hard too and put himself at risk. The lack of a real airstate hurt him as well. I still stand by what i said at first though. his guard breaks and Ongyoin are pretty much gimmicks. Oh yeah and he has great punishment. Lower health helped him a lot imo.
Helena.How does Ryu have better starting options then Helena is what I want to know. Unless they toned down her (3)P. It beat pretty much every option he had. They did fix his hit boxes though so this match up may no be as bad as it used to be.
LeiFang. I don't know much about post patch but she pretty much crushed everything he did constantly. Advantage, disadvantage it didn't matter. She really sets the pace of the match against him and its annoying.
Christie. After a few advanced holds you become a little more hesitant to hit buttons. So vs characters with really strong holds it can be tough. Christie has to hit buttons to get that damage. When you get blindly held for a fourth of your life or more I know I tend to start thinking a little more. So that Izuna factor again...
Hayate. I see so much reading from neutral I see it as 5-5. Ryu has some good tools but I feel Hayate can shut him down if he wants to. Both take lots of risks. It has been proven that not many of us view it so though. It comes down to how you view the game and reading. Ryu is stronger but the match up is read heavy so imo it is null.
Bayman. Wasn't this a terrible match up for him pre patch? hmm i wonder if 3P will stop tank roll..interesting. I wanna give this one more thought. I say don't count Bayman down yet. Just my gut though.
Lisa. Omg that 12 frame mid and 1P mixups! I need way more experience with this match up haha.
I feel like a lot of Ryus match ups were balanced out post patch just because of his how I feel he is played. He has some of the best holds in the game. While risky as heck the reward is good for coming out in one frame. He has one of the best stun games period. So you gotta make good reads all around but he has the damage behind it to make it good. The 6K buff was by far the most important imo. Neutral your reading or gimmicking. When you nab a stun they have to hold or die. He is pretty good now but the level of reads you have to make with him is just way too much for my taste. Sadly most of the time he has to commit hard too and put himself at risk. The lack of a real airstate hurt him as well. I still stand by what i said at first though. his guard breaks and Ongyoin are pretty much gimmicks. Oh yeah and he has great punishment. Lower health helped him a lot imo.
Takeda could probably tell you my thoughts on this verbatim even if he disagrees with me, lol
5-5
Hayate has superior string mix-ups, delays and in general always has the speed advantage, thus allowing him the edge in neutral. With many similar-function moves (1P) Hayate's is generally faster (and though in that case the low-trip follow-up comes faster from Ryu, Hayate gets the added mix-up potential with mid P). While he doesn't get much off of his guard breaks, he doesn't need much seeing as in neutral he's got the speed advantage anyway. He also has good crush potential (high kicks can crush mids if timed right, etc.) and many of his unsafe moves are only low-throw punishable. Combined with Hayate's command sidestep and wind-dash, he is able to maintain pressure while also functioning evasively. His gap-closing techniques (wind-dash, 214P, 3H+K, etc.) are good, typically crush and are not universally negated by side-stepping. Similar animations keep the opponent guessing what move will actually come out, forcing them into a guessing game unless they posses the speed to intercept. His throw potential is not much worse than Ryu's. Both net highest damage off of launch throws into juggles, and with similar execution frames on each of those throws, the difference is not huge. Ryu does have faster "regular" throws which do deal more damage, however. Overall Hayate loses in the holds department, but his expert mid kick hold is better than Ryu's.
Ryu, while slower, does do more damage with his strikes and juggles (air throw should be noted). A successful read will get you further, even if it's harder to get in. His string mix-ups are limited and rarely delayable (few gems like 3PPP, still don't compare to Hayate's). Ryu crushes as well (6KP similar to Hayate's air kicks in crush function), but usually returns to standing state for throw punishment and likes to get swept out of them even when attacks clearly strike in the area he allegedly crushes. Unlike Hayate, however, Ryu does have legitimate guard breaks that must be respected. Namely, 4PK/PP4PK, 6KP, ongyoin 8P and arguably 66K. He doesn't have a lot, but the ones he does have are quite practical. However, similar to Ryu's gap-closing techniques, they can all be side-stepped. Ryu is also quite telegraphed. His animations are quite distinct from one-another and can be held, blocked or side-stepped on reaction. He does get the edge on throw damage and execution time, but it's not a huge factor. Holds are a different matter, with Ryu's expert holds being very deadly and forcing Hayate to think very carefully about how many punches he wants to throw out. Ryu takes the edge here, no question. Ryu also has his ongyoin parry which is a very strange tool. At times it seems like it allows him to get out of nearly any situation, but once the opponent learns to low P (or risk a HiC throw), it's effectiveness dwindles to only allowing a possible 6P+K counter, though the low crush properties here are a bit strange and if blocked, the move then becomes unsafe with a low-throw punish). Additionally, the parry gives him no discernible frame advantage beyond the recovery of the parried attack, and the distance he is left at is usually quite far. Dashing away or intercepting Ryu's follow-ups with BT attacks is not terribly difficult.
U_C_A_F
Well-Known Member
Haven't been on in awhile so is the consensus now that eliot is the worst character in the game? what the hell changed from pre-release where dr. dogg and others where claiming him to be top tier? He will always be my main and i easily win with him against S ranks and such but man it feels like he got completely screwed over compared to everyone else. He better get some serious buffs in 5U at least
Dr. Dogg was wrong about a great many things.
the only buff i know for sure is he can do the ground bounce outside of that long ass string now.should have been able to do that in the first place but whats done is done.
Alex_MaGanda
New Member
Lol that tier list looks so wrong Helena C trololololol sure
Lol chrisitie is one of the best Characteres in the game
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Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
sigh.... her match ups or lack there of is the reason that she is there. If you have any information on her match ups against the entire cast, then please feel free to post them so she can be put in the proper tier.
Keep in mind that whatever it is you post about her match ups; it can and probably will be challenged by other members who may know more than you about the match up.
I am not saying this to you directly, MaGanda. This seems to be an issue that many players have when they see the tier list for the game. They feel certain characters shouldn't be where they are, and yet they have not taken any participation in the match up discussion to help out the tier list. If you look at the tier list chart on the 1st page you can clearly see the match ups and the point system in which places the characters in the tier list.
Well, I admit he could explain why he feels the way he does better, but the way you worded made it sound like: "Don't bother contributing your thoughts because we will ignore them in favor of 'other members who know more than you'," and that attitude is why the Tier List still isn't completed. No one wants to contribute to the "discussion" because they feel like no one will actually listen when they talk. Not to mention that certain match-ups will always be contested, even among knowledgeable players (talk to Rikuto about the current Pai/Bayman match-up, for example).
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MajesticBlue
Active Member
I have a semi educated onion and I still don't post much match up information because a persons view of the game defines what they see as good. Other then swaying some peoples minds trying to convince somebody with a mind set very different really does not work out. Plus looking ignorant is never all that good. It is all so subjective. Maybe in the name of learning I will try and contribute something. So very few of us have the experience needed to discuss the majority of the match ups. Gotta have that offline exp. to judge the characters I feel. So sadly even smart players can't always discuss them in the truest form. I know that keeps me quiet.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
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So beautiful it could make me cry.
Character and game balance don't change during development, nope, not at all...
Codemaster92163
Well-Known Member
That match-up is tricky to pin down. It's difficult weighing in speed vs. damage/crushes. Paris and I considered it as 4-6 in Bayman's favor because Tank Roll will easily shut out most of Pai's mix-ups. She's one of the most linear characters in the game, and it doesn't help that most of her strings are comprised of several high hits (some all highs). His parries are problematic for her as well. The biggest issue she has is dealing damage, as is her issue for all heavy weights. You can't just stun/launch with her against heavyweights - you really do need near max threshold stuns to get any decent launch, and even then, her damage is pitiful. That's why against heavyweights, I find it best to rely on throws and small launches then FTs. But then, there's still the matter of Pai's absurd speed, Godly pokes and amazing throws. Yet even with those, a well timed Tank Roll beats out all of it.
I recognize where you're coming from, but I still don't feel like it'd be 6-4 in Bayman's favor.
Sidesteps (and command side-steps and the such) are useful, but can't be done from stun. Since basically all of Pai's holds and (useful) throws are frame advantage/stun resets, as long as juggles are ended with force techs you're basically caught in a loop the whole time (Pai can start such loops quite effectively with her insane speed). The only way out of this is to use holds (which open you up to throw resets, or any number of mix-ups if failed, obviously) and due to Pai's speed and mix-up potential (1H+K-type attacks are obviously important to note against Bayman) it can be hard to hold her. Since you can't effectively initiate an offense (because she beats you in speed tenfold), basically your only hope is to blindly guess and hope you get off a hold and can maintain pressure to prevent her from re-initiating a loop (something not easily done against Pai with the sluggish Bayman). Blindly throwing out holds is not a good tactic, here or anywhere else. Thus, there really aren't any good moves Bayman can make in a fight against Pai beyond guessing which one of her many options she will try. For that reason, I don't feel the 6-4 is accurate.
But that's just me. I'll let the Pai/Bayman buffs have the say on that one.
Ryu/Pai as 5/5 is a different story.
Sidesteps (and command side-steps and the such) are useful, but can't be done from stun. Since basically all of Pai's holds and (useful) throws are frame advantage/stun resets, as long as juggles are ended with force techs you're basically caught in a loop the whole time (Pai can start such loops quite effectively with her insane speed). The only way out of this is to use holds (which open you up to throw resets, or any number of mix-ups if failed, obviously) and due to Pai's speed and mix-up potential (1H+K-type attacks are obviously important to note against Bayman) it can be hard to hold her. Since you can't effectively initiate an offense (because she beats you in speed tenfold), basically your only hope is to blindly guess and hope you get off a hold and can maintain pressure to prevent her from re-initiating a loop (something not easily done against Pai with the sluggish Bayman). Blindly throwing out holds is not a good tactic, here or anywhere else. Thus, there really aren't any good moves Bayman can make in a fight against Pai beyond guessing which one of her many options she will try. For that reason, I don't feel the 6-4 is accurate.
But that's just me. I'll let the Pai/Bayman buffs have the say on that one.
Ryu/Pai as 5/5 is a different story.
Black Dragon
Active Member
Ryu/Pai as 5/5?
How so?
How so?
Codemaster92163
Well-Known Member
Eh, that's one we're not too sure on. Ryu's just weird. Feel free to change that one if you want. I just put a number there that didn't tip the scales one way or another, mostly because his Izuna holds are devastating and she's at a loss of options once he ranges her out. Of course, close up, Ryu's at her mercy. It could be 6-4 easily, but a good Ryu has the match-up feel like 5-5 if they use his spacing/guardbreaks/counters well enough.
MajesticBlue
Active Member
Tis the epic battle of Ryu's 61F vs. Pai's 33T. True story. If he ever wants to do anything for the most part he has to commit to a crush and hope she went high or low. Spammed me some 2P xD.I agree with all Ryu match-ups being kinda weird. The Izuna factor makes him very hard to place. Once he opens up somebody up he can be a pain for sure. Also I am sure Pai is the same boat as Ryu and I just don't have enough experience seeing certain see able moves I am thinking. I still am at wits end that good players can't hold his guard breaks on reaction though.