MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
cruse jak and it's crouching abilities
The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread
- Thread starter Matt Ponton
- Start date
I attempt to 1T JAK as Kokoro sometimes. And then I realize that Kokoro is crap and her 1T is terrible now.
Blazeincarnated
Well-Known Member
Zack.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
well duh...you didn't know? all his throws track.
I think it's still too early to discuss anything of tiers. Plus, there's supposed to be an upcoming patch & there's only been like a few tournaments & things are still being found with the characters. Not all of the characters have really been shown to full potential besides that.
It is not to early to discuss an estimate though. Right now people are using the old tier list as an estimate and that makes DoA5U looks bad in my eyes as new people get the impression that it is not a new game at all. In other communities they have a tier list ready by the end of launch day!
Most of the problems the low tiers had still exist and the reason the top tier are great are mostly still there. I don't see the tiers shifting drastically. Bass vs Kasumi and Kokoro vs Christie are still as annoying as ever.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
there will be some big shifts in the tier list if you ask me. some characters that are slept are fucking nasty.
David Gregg
Well-Known Member
I agree with JDE I would at least hold off until the patch before everyone starts making tier lists. It's amazing how a few tweaks can have a drastic change on a character.
Yes, but at the same time this is flawed because there are people who in fact probably know more about a certain character than you know. You may assume that somebody is low tier & then they may not even be low tier. The last thing you want to do is mislead or misinform people when someone that has more knowledge come in & counter your argument. It's happened many of times before. It happened the last time when vanilla 1st dropped. On top of that, you have to figure match upsIt is not to early to discuss an estimate though. Right now people are using the old tier list as an estimate and that makes DoA5U looks bad in my eyes as new people get the impression that it is not a new game at all. In other communities they have a tier list ready by the end of launch day!
Also, that has happened in other communities too. Injustice for example, everyone thought Superman was a limited character but now look the results of tournaments & his full potential with his character match ups going across the board.
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MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
gotta be in the lab even harder than before.
But... this is how the system is supposed to work.
If we "the community" figures out some good counter arguments we change the tier list accordingly. After each patch or "new discoveries through discussion" we may have to look at it again and again and again. By this perfectionist ideals we would never get to have a tier list because there is always an possibility for it to be wrong. And no, it will never be perfect, but right now we have no basis other than this DOA5 chart. And this is what is being used right now. It is far more misinforming than any new estimate we as an collective may create.
And to be fair, it has been some time now. I'm sure the people who main their respectable characters may find some common ground as for what would be viewed as a decent setup.
I believe it is time we put forth a first draft ladies and gentlemen.
David Gregg
Well-Known Member
lmao Crext you certainly are adamant aren't you?
lmao Crext you certainly are adamant aren't you?
Well, it was not easy for Galileo to convince the authorities that the world was heliocentric.
I guess the discussion of tier lists are just as challenging on the power structures of FSD.
Thanks for all the info guys! Appreciate it!
Coming from Tekken, one of the wierdest thing to me is mixing up the stun strings so the opponent doesn't know what's coming next and thus cannot hold me. In Tekken you usually just have a launcher and pretty much do the exact same combo every time because it is the best and gives the most damage, or you change it up you wanna spike them to the ground to get more oki, or if a wall is nearby.
In DOA I just cannot learn one combo and do that all the time. I need to keep changing my stun-moves and the follow ups. For me DOA is actually more difficult (combowise) than Tekken ever was! What's up with that?
Also, I heard alot of 'myths' about this game. People (who didn't play this game) said it demanded no skill, "just mash the hold button", they said. Fucking liars! The truth couldn't be farther from it!
First I think the window for the hold is too small - at least for me, my timing sucks as of now. Second, there are 4 different ways to hold, it's very hard to guess right all the time. How the hell do you guys do it?
I ask because from what I read, you 'pros' actually want the hold window to be even smaller (?) and have a 6 way spilt rather than 4 way split. Why do you want it to change it to even more difficult? The timing of the hold is really demanding. Can you hold mid-string against all the strings or does that vary from string to string?
If it's suppose to be a triangle system, all three options have to be amost equally strong. You cannot have one option be way more difficult and risky than those others. Anyway, keep in mind I'm just a noob and only played for a week or so. Most likely my guesswork will be better ones I can read the strings and get more used to the timing.
Coming from Tekken, one of the wierdest thing to me is mixing up the stun strings so the opponent doesn't know what's coming next and thus cannot hold me. In Tekken you usually just have a launcher and pretty much do the exact same combo every time because it is the best and gives the most damage, or you change it up you wanna spike them to the ground to get more oki, or if a wall is nearby.
In DOA I just cannot learn one combo and do that all the time. I need to keep changing my stun-moves and the follow ups. For me DOA is actually more difficult (combowise) than Tekken ever was! What's up with that?
Also, I heard alot of 'myths' about this game. People (who didn't play this game) said it demanded no skill, "just mash the hold button", they said. Fucking liars! The truth couldn't be farther from it!
First I think the window for the hold is too small - at least for me, my timing sucks as of now. Second, there are 4 different ways to hold, it's very hard to guess right all the time. How the hell do you guys do it?
I ask because from what I read, you 'pros' actually want the hold window to be even smaller (?) and have a 6 way spilt rather than 4 way split. Why do you want it to change it to even more difficult? The timing of the hold is really demanding. Can you hold mid-string against all the strings or does that vary from string to string?
If it's suppose to be a triangle system, all three options have to be amost equally strong. You cannot have one option be way more difficult and risky than those others. Anyway, keep in mind I'm just a noob and only played for a week or so. Most likely my guesswork will be better ones I can read the strings and get more used to the timing.
David Gregg
Well-Known Member
Practice. lol. Once you become more familiar with the characters you'll learn how to anticipate certain strings and setups. Also remember that trying to constantly "guess" and hold puts you at a disadvantage (you're in a stun longer, take more damage, and even get launched in the air in some instances when you wouldn't have otherwise). When in doubt, try and block. As for the 4 point hold, trust me, with a 3 point hold it was ridiculous people could just spam the counter button continuously and eventually you were going to counter. A 4 point system is still not perfect but at least more often than not you're countering your opponent b/c you accurately read them (which is the point it's not random guessing).
So I'm not a pro but trust me, the window is very generous for holds. How precisely you hold their attack is a different story (the more closely you time your hold to their attack the greater the damage). Also most people do not want a 6 point hold that would get way too messy. In terms of holding mid-string it just depends and you have to take a lot of things into account. But like I said, unless you know which move you're opponent is going to do next, it's more important to try and get out of the stun and try and block their next move.
Also Dr. Bhup have you watched Emperor Cow's tutorial videos on youtube? It's for 5 not 5 ultimate but it's a great way to understand the basic and sometimes not so straightforward game mechanics. He does a really good job and you learn a lot.
Hold takes practice and understanding of the opponent. Once you start recognizing the opponents moves set, you'd know exactly when to hold for the different moves. But it is not that simple, first off you have the ability to delay moves, stop string and switch to another move set, different options in the same strings or finally stop and throw, which is by far the most dangerous one.
To make it even more complex some characters have advanced holds and parries, which makes this mind game even more challenging.
Long story short, no, this game requires a lot more. Holding is a viable technique, but against an advanced opponent it becomes much more difficult to pull of.
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Well, though it may seem noble, new people take this as an good and updated list.
"Evidence":
The final draft of the DoA5 tiers came about 1 month before DoA5U. In other words it took close to 11 months to "complete it". If we start 11 months from now there is a good chance we'll never complete it, and that the tier list will be totally uninteresting for the people that need it the most; the new guys.
The veterans know how things are, they have played it enough to disregard or ignore any tier list, and can almost instantly get good ideas for how things change based on patch notes. You've had several in this community "not accepting" the current tier list, which underlines the point all together. There are "pros" who disagree completly, we just have to accept that this is how the world is. There is no universally perfect tier list, the tier list is based on the "deep tier/knowledgeable players" collective mindset. If they/we are not willing to discuss those disagreements now, as at present it would be a very innocent thing to do, then I can promise you those same people would not participate in 1 year from now. In 1 year from now they've had so much experience with the game that being wrong would be dishonoring/embarasing, and they'll either remain rock solid in their views or not enter a discussion to begin with.
On that note it is realistic to believe we will lose some of the knowledge map in about 1 year. This means we will lose many individuals for discussion, and any vote given at that point would probably be final, regardless of quality. Then the tier list will be of poor quality, poorly fundamented, and probably less reflected of the collective view of the community where more will reject it.
But since I am the one getting the adamant brand, I'll leave it at that, as the arguments are starting to get repetitive. There may be elements involved based on previous experiences that I am unaware of, or other elements I fail to see, and if the conservative rule has made a unison descission on the matter, then I will respect this.