Tougeki Combo Exhibition!

[Doug Nguyen]

Yeah i have a feeling CB might be kinda hard to do for Kasumi because 4 hits is not that much but when your opponent is constantly spamming low counters it kinda messes you up if your doing a high or mid attack. I wish they would keep her CB like in the E3 build, when Kayane was doing CB the most.

 

[Keylay]

That's why we need to take a closer look at it and really see how this change effects things.

Taking a look at the E3 build, Kasumi doesn't really have many sit-down stuns outside of 66KK. As awesome as her 66KK combo was in this video, it's super telegraphed. You're not going to hit that sit-down stun against anyone good.

If someone like Kasumi has difficulty hitting a CB on the 3rd attack in a combo, she'll be forced to play like DOA4, while characters like Bayman, who hit harder and presumably can CB with ease on the 3rd hit, get to play DOA5. That almost automatically makes Kasumi lower tier than Bayman in this theory fighter world.

I want to know why TN took away her sit down stun from . I remember going through her movelist in DOAD to see what moves caused sit down stuns after you said you can't hold during them. Then I play her at E3 and I found out it doesn't cause sit down anymore

 

[Doug Nguyen]

I want to know why TN took away her sit down stun from . I remember going through her movelist in DOAD to see what moves caused sit down stuns after you said you can't hold during them. Then I play her at E3 and I found out it doesn't cause sit down anymore

Oh dang it that sucks. I used that move all the time before. What does it do now?

 

[PhoenixVFIRE]

I want to know why TN took away her sit down stun from . I remember going through her movelist in DOAD to see what moves caused sit down stuns after you said you can't hold during them. Then I play her at E3 and I found out it doesn't cause sit down anymore

Wow, they could've kept that >_> Shoot, that caused a sit-down stun in DOA4 too. The only things I saw cause a sit-down stun for Kasumi in DOA5 were, her now high elbow at the end of her punch string, and the 66KK.

 

[qoodname]

I seems like CB in depths is more complex then i thought. I just rewatched the combo video and noticed something. At 1:08 Jannlee goes for CB on the 5th hit but on the other hand at 2:15 lei fang goes for CB on the 3rd hit even though jannlee actually did more damage before CB then lei fang. I dont really understand that to be honest. Maybe i missed something out...

 

[Keylay]

Oh dang it that sucks. I used that move all the time before. What does it do now?

It causes another critical stun. I forgot which one.

I seems like CB in depths is more complex i thought. I just rewatched the combo video and noticed something. At 1:08 Jannlee goes for CB on the 5th hit but on the other hand at 2:15 lei fang goes for CB on the 3rd hit even though jannlee actually did more damage before CB then lei fang. I dont really understand that to be honest. Maybe i missed something out...

I noticed that too. It seems like certain throws/parries/holds start with a smaller critical stun threshold. In Kokoro's first combo, the threshold is really small after she does her throw.

 

[qoodname]

I noticed that too. It seems throws/parries/holds start with a smaller critical threshold. In Kokoro's first combo, the threshold is really small after she does her throw.

Yeah but it seems that it doesnt work with all throws. Jannlee does a throw at 1:08 too but the threshold looks normal.

 

[Shinigamimatt]

That's why we need to take a closer look at it and really see how this change effects things.

Taking a look at the E3 build, Kasumi doesn't really have many sit-down stuns outside of 66KK. As awesome as her 66KK combo was in this video, it's super telegraphed. You're not going to hit that sit-down stun against anyone good.

If someone like Kasumi has difficulty hitting a CB on the 3rd attack in a combo, she'll be forced to play like DOA4, while characters like Bayman, who hit harder and presumably can CB with ease on the 3rd hit, get to play DOA5. That almost automatically makes Kasumi lower tier than Bayman in this theory fighter world.

This is what I'm afraid of.

 

[MrMoon360]

It means she has to play the stun game of DoA4. If it takes her 4-5 hits to reach CB then she might as well not even bother with it.

The stun game of DOA4? From what I gather, the amount of moves that put you in critical state have been reduced. So if critical state is earned, I don't see the problem or brokenness with it.

And the truth is, we don't know what's going on with the threshold enough to decide this change is bad, useless, or unbalanced.

On a sidenote,
I'm loving the news on the buffed sidestep. It adds another neutral game defense mechanism. Because countering in neutral will be quite risky in high level play, no? Maybe thats just the VF in me lovin' it..

Yeah i have a feeling CB might be kinda hard to do for Kasumi because 4 hits is not that much but when your opponent is constantly spamming low counters it kinda messes you up if your doing a high or mid attack. I wish they would keep her CB like in the E3 build, when Kayane was doing CB the most.

With the recovery of counters being the way it is, you can no longer spam them incoherently and be at an advantage.
Spamming low counters is vulnerable to mids, which usually contain CB properties.

Before long, I believe the veterans will come to learn how low counter is not as great as it used to be, avoiding the critical state stun and attacks.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

.
With the recovery of counters being the way it is, you can no longer spam them incoherently and be at an advantage.
Spamming low counters is vulnerable to mids, which usually contain CB properties.

Before long, I believe the veterans will come to learn how low counter is not as great as it used to be, avoiding the critical state stun and attacks.

Wait so are you saying in DOA5 spamming counters wont be such a big issue anymore? Please be so.

 

[MrMoon360]

Wait so are you saying in DOA5 spamming counters wont be such a big issue anymore? Please be so.

To be honest, that pain was nulled in the pre-alpha demo. With these later builds, we're being given tools to advantageously work the critical state, as well as more guaranteed tools in general. Adding mid-kick and mid-punch hold commands certainly helped obliterate the spam issue.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

To be honest, that pain was nulled in the pre-alpha demo. With these later builds, we're being given tools to advantageously work the critical state, as well as more guaranteed tools in general. Adding mid-kick and mid-punch hold commands certainly helped obliterate the spam issue.

I didnt even notice that in the demo since i played against com most of the time. Wait so lets say i do a 4 hit combo they wont be able to do 4 counters anymore. What would it look like now?

 

[DrDogg]

With low damage characters like Kasumi and Kokoro getting CB on the fourth hit after a sitdown, its safe to assume it all depends on damage done in-stun. That Jann Lee player played a little too long in critical for my tastes; light jabs and such. Critical Burst is a universal option. If you can win a match advantageously without it, so be it. But I'm sure that won't be an easy feat with all characters. I have a feeling it will just end up being more of a threat with high damaging characters. But combo mix-ups will factor in. And if CB gives a % increase of damage to hits afterward or if you yield more damage regardless, there's your risk/reward factor right?

From a competitive standpoint, the sole purpose of CB is to get a free launch. If you can't get that launch before the 4th hit of a combo, then going for a CB is no different than going for a launch without a CB. You don't get a % increase in damage aside from the small damage the CB itself inflicts.

CB is a universal option, but in DOA4 and so far in DOA5, the best option is always the choice that prevents the opponent from countering. If a character can't CB until the 4th hit, unless there are two sit-down stuns before that CB, it's not a threat at all.

Can someone tell me what exactly that statement in bold means?
Anyone? I'm confused.

To elaborate on what Raansu said, the ideal combo flow for a DOA5 character as of the E3 build is:

Initial Stun > Sit-Down Stun > Critical Burst

In limited cases a second sit-down stun was added to get:

Initial Stun > Sit-Down Stun > Sit-Down Stun > Critical Burst

In both instances, the opponent cannot counter after the second hit in the combo. Now, if a character can't CB until the 4th hit, and only one sit-down stun is used, you end up with this:

Initial Stun > Normal Stun > Sit-Down Stun > Critical Burst

Not only can the opponent counter twice between the sit-down stun, but after the second hit, the opponent knows that a Critical Burst is not an option yet. They know that they only have to worry about a sit-down stun because if the offensive player does anything else, they will either cut their combo short, or the defending player will have another chance to counter.

That's not much different compared to how the DOA4 stun game plays out, and it's something that would completely negate CB. You may as well just go for a launch after the sit-down stun. It makes no difference by that point.

And I feel really sorry for any character who doesn't have an easily accessible sit-down stun. As of E3, that's at least Kasumi...

I seems like CB in depths is more complex i thought. I just rewatched the combo video and noticed something. At 1:08 Jannlee goes for CB on the 5th hit but on the other hand at 2:15 lei fang goes for CB on the 3rd hit even though jannlee actually did more damage before CB then lei fang. I dont really understand that to be honest. Maybe i missed something out...

I don't believe damage is the primary factor that determines when a CB takes place. The stun value of an attack is what really matters. Leifang's attacks probably had a higher stun value than Jann Lee's, even though they inflicted less damage.

The stun game of DOA4? From what I gather, the amount of moves that put you in critical state have been reduced. So if critical state is earned, I don't see the problem or brokenness with it.

As of E3, just about everything put you in a critical state on CH if it didn't launch or knock down. I saw minimal reduction at best.

And the truth is, we don't know what's going on with the threshold enough to decide this change is bad, useless, or unbalanced.

This is very true. But we know CB has been adjusted, and if that means it's harder for some characters to get a CB, that's potentially a very bad thing.

With the recovery of counters being the way it is, you can no longer spam them incoherently and be at an advantage.
Spamming low counters is vulnerable to mids, which usually contain CB properties.

Before long, I believe the veterans will come to learn how low counter is not as great as it used to be, avoiding the critical state stun and attacks.

As of E3, you could still spam low counters just as easily as you could in DOA4. Even with the adjustments to the recovery of counters, when used in-stun there was minimal difference between DOA4 and DOA5.

 

[MrMoon360]

I didnt even notice that in the demo since i played against com most of the time. Wait so lets say i do a 4 hit combo they wont be able to do 4 counters anymore. What would it look like now?

That is situational. I'm guessing you mean a four hit combo in critical state. Hit stun doesn't always guarantee the combo string. The ability to counter in critical stun is there, but the fact that it is highly punishable and disadvantageous is what has changed. That's the return of of the risk/reward factor we had in DOA3.1; in a sense.

(Hayabusa has izuna hold, but its an advanced hold. he's also a slower striker than he used to be)

 

[Doug Nguyen]

CB is a universal option, but in DOA4 and so far in DOA5, the best option is always the choice that prevents the opponent from countering. If a character can't CB until the 4th hit, unless there are two sit-down stuns before that CB, it's not a threat at all.

Yeah the only thing CB seem to be useful for is powerblows right now.

 

[DrDogg]

Yeah the only thing CB seem to be useful for is powerblows right now.

We don't know that just yet. All we're saying is that IF the CB has been toned down to the point of not being able to hit one by the 3rd attack in a combo, that would cause issues.

 

[X-Savior]

Yeah the only thing CB seem to be useful for is powerblows right now.

I just imagined how many times i would see powerblows on XBL... x_x
that could get really old really fast.
I would like it if the the heavy hitting characters had weaker powerblows, relying more on the danger zones, and vice versa for the weaker, quicker characters. That would add a whole other layer of depth to the game!

 

[MrMoon360]

To elaborate on what Raansu said, the ideal combo flow for a DOA5 character as of the E3 build is:

Initial Stun > Sit-Down Stun > Critical Burst

In limited cases a second sit-down stun was added to get:

Initial Stun > Sit-Down Stun > Sit-Down Stun > Critical Burst

In both instances, the opponent cannot counter after the second hit in the combo. Now, if a character can't CB until the 4th hit, and only one sit-down stun is used, you end up with this:

Initial Stun > Normal Stun > Sit-Down Stun > Critical Burst

Not only can the opponent counter twice between the sit-down stun, but after the second hit, the opponent knows that a Critical Burst is not an option yet. They know that they only have to worry about a sit-down stun because if the offensive player does anything else, they will either cut their combo short, or the defending player will have another chance to counter.

From what you say is possible in that lastest combo vid; that hits may have different stun properties, allowing critical burst to come regardless of damage -- whose to say critical burst won't be an option sooner than three hits?
What's wrong with having that chance to counter? Does this break the game?
For me, this breaks down into conditioning your opponent into a certain action and having a good idea of what they will try out of a limited set of options. Because yes, critical state does limit your options as the player on defense.

As of E3, just about everything put you in a critical state on CH if it didn't launch or knock down. I saw minimal reduction at best.

I think critical state is justified for certain moves on counter hit. That just means their attack beat out yours.
I don't agree with there being too many of attacks doing this, though.

 

[Rikuto]

We're willing to deal with an opponent having the chance to counter out of stun. We're not willing to deal with our opponent having multiple chances to counter out of stun.

That, in my mind, breaks the game yes. Remember the thread I posted about the actual odds of holding out of threshold? Lessons we should not forget.

But we have no idea how much impact that change really made so we have to wait and find out.

 

[DrDogg]

From what you say is possible in that lastest combo vid; that hits may have different stun properties, allowing critical burst to come regardless of damage -- whose to say critical burst won't be an option sooner than three hits?
What's wrong with having that chance to counter? Does this break the game?
For me, this breaks down into conditioning your opponent into a certain action and having a good idea of what they will try out of a limited set of options. Because yes, critical state does limit your options as the player on defense.

I don't know if I'd say it breaks the game, but it certainly makes it play a lot more like DOA4.

As I said, this is all theory fighter at the moment. We'll know more when we understand how the changes impact things. It's certainly a warning flag though.

I think critical state is justified for certain moves on counter hit. That just means their attack beat out yours.
I don't agree with there being too many of attacks doing this, though.

You said the number of attacks that put you in critical have been reduced, meaning it's now something you have to earn. I simply corrected you in that they haven't really been reduced.

I'm not going to comment on whether or not that's "too many" attacks, but I don't think you have to earn it. It's much harder to connect a normal hit than it is to connect a counter-hit. If anything, you earn the normal hit.