Your General Complaints about DoA and Other Fighting Games?

[KING JAIMY]

Pfft... I wish I could have that, but only with lots and lots of hard work.

Then why are you complaining?

now you're going to make work extra hard just to get it back?! Have mercy, God dammit!" Losing rank is one thing, but forcing you to work twice as hard to get it back is bullshit.

lol

 

[DestructionBomb]

Even to this day, I have self-doubt. Comes from a combination of gradual disappointment and fear building up from years of playing. Even so, I still play when and if I can, hoping and believing someday I'll have a breakthrough that will change everything.

I don't need this "mask" you speak of for that.


If you're serious: You mean you don't have to buffer the crouch dash before the input?

If you're not serious: I have no idea how to respond to that.


Intimidation is the sincerest form of flattery... or was it imitation?

Either way, the fear of asking is definitely there. But only because the pre-emptive, misinformed idea that people can be experts at a fighting game in an instant by is planted in their head. So when they're told there's no easy way out, they fold. At least that's my theory on why some - if not most - players are the way they are when it comes to asking for help in fighting games. But there are others who truly are genuinely lazy.


OK, let me see if I can figure out this metaphor...

You go out of your way to help people, and you're usually met with vitirol from people who think they know it all. But you've grown so accustomed to it that you forced yourself to grow thicker skin, thus why you sometimes seem abrasive in discussions like this the forums...

Am I correct?

-Then I await this breakthrough of yours.

- Mine is.

- Dashing or certain crouch buffering inputs here is easier than the other 3D fighting games as of yet. People made it seem as if they only had 1 hand to play the game, obviously the other might be in enjoyment in spectator mode but that is totally not my business. I am trolling in this thread here obviously to find delicious things for amusement because I enjoy this quite a bit and I love every second of agony to find out that nothing will save it when people are demanding certain things to be changed in the game.

- Neither.

- Possibly. There was no attempts to try however. If I come out as a total douche then my companions are correct and that I should lose credibility. Although, that is difficult alone due to my soul accepting the plea for help because why would you not help them?..the ones that causes me to go douche is the ones puts themselves in that situation to demand things because life is just plain easy now is it.

- Heh, not bad. Pretty good there. Quite close actually. Not exactly "Know it all"...but somewhat close.

Not the topic for this, but I will give you credit on actually thinking that through, not bad lol. Apologies to all by the way. Anyways, drop a message if you need help.

 

[Lulu]

I would like to help, but the fellow FSD companions like yourself are putting up a barrier for me to do so because...the input is too hard. What exactly you want me to do there? magically create extra fingers via sorcery? you even tell people to configure the buttons to find a way most comfortable and they still won't do it. You cannot blame the other for this.

Thats kinda my point...... theres nothing you can do to help.... and if it sounds like im blaming you.... I'm not... your Killian-eque Comments are just getting on my nerves. Perhaps you're interpreting that as blame.

You just said I don't understand DOA. How exactly can I take you serious? "You" placed yourself on that situation. It was ignorant the moment you said I didn't understand DOA lol (I was hoping you would test my knowledge but you didn't and I was waiting on you to do so.)

Clearly you didn't read what I just wrote to you in the previous post. I suppose I shouldn't be surprise.... you said you didn't read it and wear your ignorance with pride. Its my fault not yours.

Hard inputs don't make people feel good. It defines credibility as to why X character is like this and reasoning behind it. Making X character easier to play with can cause a serious downing of character potential output. Let's make a i13 move that does 60+ on counter hit with a simple button. Extremely hard to react to and recovery base is obnoxiously quick but instead, we all want to make X character derpy for who knows why. We could also provide Raidou's OH throw a standard 236H+P...but nah...I don't think they'll tone the damage. Probably would be a i40 throw because that input is far too generous.

All I said was change the input... not how fast the move actually is within the game or how much damage it does..... every command throw I've encountered in the game so far has a +17 Frame Recovery.... including Alpha's 2T which is i3.... I don't know how much damage it does but as you can tell its a very fast throw, virtually unreactable.... I suppose by your logic this should have been a 3(3)T input because appearently it increases character output some how..... well it isn't.... the input is 2T.... if theres any potential output being wasted then please explain..... because what you're saying just doesn't add up.

As for your Raidou example.... I don't have Raidou..... I don't know any of his moves beyond what they look like so I've mostly been fighting him through trial and error.

 

[Lulu]

And my post was ignored completely. Thanks, Lulu.

Which one ?

Oh the rank penalty for losing to lower rank players....
I'm so sorry I just can't help myself.

Also I've only played online once.

 

[DestructionBomb]

Lulu, I just read your posts and yet hardly any of it provides on what DOA truly is. DOA is all about the environments. Complexity, situational awareness and taking advantage of the mind games is what gives DOA bonus to what it is. Faulty inputs is all part of the genuine plan of the situation. If you fail at a button input, you have no one to blame but yourself and that is a genuine loss.

I've been playing this game and the series for far too long. You cannot say you are correct when you are rambling about button inputs and character execution to be toned down. You just "don't" ask for that. If you know what DOA is about, then execution would be one of the last things on your mind.

 

[Argentus]

The Ryu example doesn't hold a whole lotta weight when there's character with equally powerful throws but much more practical inputs.

Hell its part of why I drift towards more "practical" fighters like Mila, Leon, Alex, etc. Not hamstringed by arbitrary inputs, so I can focus on the opponent.


Either way this is going exactly how I predicted it would, and how it went for me in the past. Pointing out a "big picture" problem, but people only focusing on the small details.

You sure I won't be ignored because of who I am?

lol I know I'll be ignored/chastised no matter what i say, even when I'm trying to help/contribute, its why I usually don't bother discussing mechanics or asking for help anymore, and just focus on learning from experience. Only a select few (yourself included) do I trust to ask for help.

I just want to say that executing moves isn't about talent, it's about practice. We NEED moves which require complex inputs, otherwise the movelist would be very limited. Also, it would be way more boring and less satisfying if all moves' complexity were reduced to a basic level. Most directional inputs are also in sync with the actual character movements. Look at Hayabusa's Izuna Drop for example, where he keeps spinning in the air, meanwhile the player also has to spin circles. With enough practice you'll eventually learn every move, trust me. I had issues with Raidou's EWGF before too. Now I can pull off the move without issues.

Just my 2 cents.

See, that kind of opinion is fine. Not gonna argue it (except pointing out that nobody said they had trouble performing it, just that the input is arbitrary and unreliable). But thank you for not being condescending about your opinion

I stopped reading after this.

Let me remind you that it does not take 10 cavemen to solve this issue. I already know the throw is an i12. It does not justify the case that it should be made easier to fit on anyone's case, just because "you" cannot do it.

stopped reading after this.

Whether you can or cannot do it is largely irrelevant. The point is simply there's no real excuse for arbitrary input executions. The game wouldn't be any worse if the moves had regular, more practical inputs.

Not to say "spin the thumbstick" is so terrible, that's just annoying, and being used as a base example. Except for example, STagger Escape, where the input is such a hassle that i'd rather just take the damage, regardless of being able to actually SE or not.

Natural talent is a myth, as far as I know. Almost everyone with great skill at anything must have practiced at least occassionally. Sure some people learn faster than others, but it doesn't matter as long as you're willing to take the time to learn each command. It's not going to change anyway. You don't have to be a master at the game to learn ''44'' or '''66'' inputs. Eventually, you'll find a way to perform those moves consistently.


This is not true for all moves. For example, when attempting Akira's JF Knee you still have a chance to get the regular knee. Or when you do Raidou EWGF, there's still a good chance you'll get that same punch but without the electrics. Another example: If you press H too late when attempting Jacky's Flash Sword Kick you'll still get his regular 6_K. So there are in fact ''half ways'' to some moves, as opposed to what you've just said.

I'm just gonna stop and point out two things.

1) I am literally physically unable to player the super technical stuff like marvel/persona/bb/gg. Its why when I DO play, I stick to power grapplers or zoners, to compensate being unable to do the super complicated rushdown inputs. I simply can't move my hands like that. Its not a matter of practice. I can't do rushdown combos. I don't have the mind or fingers for it.

2) I am entirely self taught by experience. I've noted that, much like how I can't do the super arbitrary 464646436 input for Guiles Ultra in mid fight without telegraphing it due to shuffling back and forth, there's others who simply can't comprehend mind games. They have no sense of combat instinct at all.
(seriously one time I deliberately threw out my Ultra to whiff just becase my opponent was zoning to avoid it, so because I couldn't throw it out practically for offense, I just got rid of it so they'd go back to approaching me so I could beat them with grapples and normals)

so "natural talent" is actually a thing to an extent.

I hate this game's point system in regards to ranked play. Just today I got demoted to C and lost a bonus 1000 points. It's like "I just lost my rank, and now you're going to make work extra hard just to get it back?! Have mercy, God dammit!" Losing rank is one thing, but forcing you to work twice as hard to get it back is bullshit. I DEMAND a function that will allow you to get your rank back next match in exchange for some points. Because at that point, you have a chance to get it back immediately, but at the same time, you have to slam some points down. Lose, and you lose your NORMAL AMOUNT (not 1000 when you get demoted, because that's bullshit), AND you have a chance to get your rank back right then and there.

lol this is why S/SS ranks used to be a sure sign someone is a cheap fuck lol. Very rare to find someone legitimately holding that kind of a rank.


@DestructionBomb dude. you're just missing the point here, is all it comes down to. This isn't about whether you can or can't do the input, it's just that there's no real reason for it to be arbitrary input the first place. You've done nothing but reinforce that notion, since what you've said boils down to just "git gud". You may have meant otherwise, but that's what it comes down to.

It's one thing when a move is designed to make a character play a certain way (charge characters tend to be played defensively, etc), but its something else when a move has an overly complicated/overlapping input for no real reason. Like I said, Ryu's izuna is actually a bad example. Bass/Bayman/Leon don't have to spin the stick for their "twirling" throws so why should Ryu? Hell, their throws have potential to do even MORE damage.

I understand saying its purely for the satisfaction of pulling off the input, but that's as far as it goes. There's no PRACTICAL reason for it.

 

[Lulu]

Lulu, I just read your posts and yet hardly any of it provides on what DOA truly is. DOA is all about the environments. Complexity, situational awareness and taking advantage of the mind games is what gives DOA bonus to what it is. Faulty inputs is all part of the genuine plan of the situation. If you fail at a button input, you have no one to blame but yourself and that is a genuine loss.

If the input is fair and not abitrary then I accept full responsibility for screwing it up.... but this: . Is wrong.

I know exactly what DoA is about.... its irrelevant if you can't perform the necessary inputs to actually take advantage and experiment with what DoA is really about....

I've been playing this game and the series for far too long. You cannot say you are correct when you are rambling about button inputs and character execution to be toned down. You just "don't" ask for that. If you know what DOA is about, then execution would be one of the last things on your mind.

You can't say a single thing about what I am or are not wrong about unless you bothered to read my so called ramblings..... if I'm wrong.... then atleast try to explain it to me... if you can make the effort then so can.

Execution is the very first thing people encounter when they learn almost every game.... if developers don't want they're games to be entirely about execution then they wouldn't have made inputs as arbitrary as Hayate's Raijin which I put up theres.... yes I can just ask for it to be changed.... you haven't given example of how it would negatively impact the system if you simply changed the input and only the input.

Edit:

Its called an "Execution Barrier" because thats what it is.... its a barrier locking you out of experiencing the game to its fullest.

 

[DestructionBomb]

The Ryu example doesn't hold a whole lotta weight when there's character with equally powerful throws but much more practical inputs.

Hell its part of why I drift towards more "practical" fighters like Mila, Leon, Alex, etc. Not hamstringed by arbitrary inputs, so I can focus on the opponent.


Either way this is going exactly how I predicted it would, and how it went for me in the past. Pointing out a "big picture" problem, but people only focusing on the small details.



lol I know I'll be ignored/chastised no matter what i say, even when I'm trying to help/contribute, its why I usually don't bother discussing mechanics or asking for help anymore, and just focus on learning from experience. Only a select few (yourself included) do I trust to ask for help.


See, that kind of opinion is fine. Not gonna argue it (except pointing out that nobody said they had trouble performing it, just that the input is arbitrary and unreliable). But thank you for not being condescending about your opinion



stopped reading after this.

Whether you can or cannot do it is largely irrelevant. The point is simply there's no real excuse for arbitrary input executions. The game wouldn't be any worse if the moves had regular, more practical inputs.

Not to say "spin the thumbstick" is so terrible, that's just annoying, and being used as a base example. Except for example, STagger Escape, where the input is such a hassle that i'd rather just take the damage, regardless of being able to actually SE or not.


I'm just gonna stop and point out two things.

1) I am literally physically unable to player the super technical stuff like marvel/persona/bb/gg. Its why when I DO play, I stick to power grapplers or zoners, to compensate being unable to do the super complicated rushdown inputs. I simply can't move my hands like that. Its not a matter of practice. I can't do rushdown combos. I don't have the mind or fingers for it.

2) I am entirely self taught by experience. I've noted that, much like how I can't do the super arbitrary 464646436 input for Guiles Ultra in mid fight without telegraphing it due to shuffling back and forth, there's others who simply can't comprehend mind games. They have no sense of combat instinct at all.
(seriously one time I deliberately threw out my Ultra to whiff just becase my opponent was zoning to avoid it, so because I couldn't throw it out practically for offense, I just got rid of it so they'd go back to approaching me so I could beat them with grapples and normals)

so "natural talent" is actually a thing to an extent.


lol this is why S/SS ranks used to be a sure sign someone is a cheap fuck lol. Very rare to find someone legitimately holding that kind of a rank.


@DestructionBomb dude. you're just missing the point here, is all it comes down to. This isn't about whether you can or can't do the input, it's just that there's no real reason for it to be arbitrary input the first place. You've done nothing but reinforce that notion, since what you've said boils down to just "git gud". You may have meant otherwise, but that's what it comes down to.

It's one thing when a move is designed to make a character play a certain way (charge characters tend to be played defensively, etc), but its something else when a move has an overly complicated/overlapping input for no real reason. Like I said, Ryu's izuna is actually a bad example. Bass/Bayman/Leon don't have to spin the stick for their "twirling" throws so why should Ryu? Hell, their throws have potential to do even MORE damage.

I understand saying its purely for the satisfaction of pulling off the input, but that's as far as it goes. There's no PRACTICAL reason for it.

Good, I am glad you stopped reading because it's not you ever take the time to study the game for once. It saves me time to help others that are willing to learn the game.

There is no point missing when none of what you both request will happen because it's completely out the window and does not provide any improvements to the game.

The issue with an individual like you is that you are living under a rock and prefer things on your own needs while telling others to believe guaranteed damage is not skill or juggling.

I respect your opinion but again, none of it will improve the game. If you continue to believe some of it does not require any skills, keep it up. I am quite glad that Team NINJA is keeping it up and providing the game with guaranteed damage and to stay that way until the day your descendants decides to pick up the game if Team NINJA lasts long as a sub company for KOEI.

If the input is fair and not abitrary then I accept full responsibility for screwing it up.... but this: . Is wrong.

I know exactly what DoA is about.... its irrelevant if you can't perform the necessary inputs to actually take advantage and experiment with what DoA is really about....


You can't say a single thing about what I am or are not wrong about unless you bothered to read my so called ramblings..... if I'm wrong.... then atleast try to explain it to me... if you can make the effort then so can.

Execution is the very first thing people encounter when they learn almost every game.... if developers don't want they're games to be entirely about execution then they wouldn't have made inputs as arbitrary as Hayate's Raijin which I put up theres.... yes I can just ask for it to be changed.... you haven't given example of how it would negatively impact the system if you simply changed the input and only the input.

I would assume that's the Raijin input, now here's a fun fact: That is not Hayate's key throw. If it's a hard input....then ignore it. Even I believe the move is unintelligent but I won't ask Team NINJA to make it easier, simply because it's what? Hayate? I do believe the damage should be increased to fit the needs for such a throw.

You don't know what DOA is about if you are actually talking about character execution and make it easier because you yourself as a player cannot do it. You just don't change things for your own personal benefit.

I did. I explained it to you but you believe to have much more knowledge to how the game's approach is and are far too stubborn to even admit it due to providing your theory on how execution should based on your own feelings for how the game should be with easier inputs. All from 1 person. Yeah, good luck with that.

You could ask for it to be changed..but it's not a key element to improving the game and chances are slim because the developers don't care. Good luck with that once more. Character design for diversity and complexity for different outcomes. Just like SF, BlazBlue, VF, Tekken and so many other fighting games, and I gotta say....it's quite pure and enjoyable. I mean, you said I didn't know about DOA. Would you like to play some games for that regard into proving that? Who knows, you may win and beat me, but chances are that it may not end well for you on that happening. There has to be some way of proving it!

 

[oMASTER LEGENDo]

This thread is so funny apparently personal problems with fighting games, become our problems wouldn't it be better if you all played DiveKick instead.

 

[Lulu]

The Ryu example doesn't hold a whole lotta weight when there's character with equally powerful throws but much more practical inputs.

For me that throw would be Rachels . Its simple, Elegant and Hits like a Truck on Explosive Surfaces... Sarah has a Similar one but the input for that is for some reason.

Whether you can or cannot do it is largely irrelevant. The point is simply there's no real excuse for arbitrary input executions. The game wouldn't be any worse if the moves had regular, more practical inputs.

Not to say "spin the thumbstick" is so terrible, that's just annoying, and being used as a base example. Except for example, STagger Escape, where the input is such a hassle that i'd rather just take the damage, regardless of being able to actually SE or not.

I just felt like that part should be repeated one more time.... just in case.

Anyway yeah the Stagger Escaping input is almost the equivalent of Zangief Ultra.... it easily overlaps with other moves namely the holds and can cause you to side step or crouch by accident.... its very unintuitive.

Now this part is where I'm alone: I don't like The Stagger Escaping Mechanic and Unholdable Stuns themselves..... they just don't seem like they have a place anywhere in DoA's Triangle System..... they literally cut out the Hold Mechanic.

I understand saying its purely for the satisfaction of pulling off the input, but that's as far as it goes. There's no PRACTICAL reason for it.

Thats why I keep asking why they play Fighting Games.....

How much satisfactiom can one get from successfully doing one of these arbitrary inputs anyway...... they way the make it sound its as if you can design an entire game where all you do is perform Difficult Inputs for literally no reason other than because it feels good.... you know... kind of like those Typing Tutor Applications.... actually that thing was fun... because it isn't disingenuous about what it was designed for. They should make a "Stick Spinning Multi Button Pressing Tutor" just as an experiment.

 

[DestructionBomb]

The moment when these users still believe execution is about making others feel good when it was clearly made intentional in character design and purpose made.

Still waiting so what's it gonna be? PS4? still need enlightenment on why I have no clue on what DOA is about.

 

[oMASTER LEGENDo]

Well both of them aren't very good make sure you use a blind fold to keep everything fair.

 

[SoftCabbage]

My only problem is that the AI can be a super psychic cyborgs even in low-mid difficulty. Even worse in DOA5+ since they can even spawn a super tank psychic juggler in stage 3, 5, or 9 in a Rookie survival, arcade, time attack.

My second problem is Marie Rose and Honoka. Btw, fans, please don't take my opinion too seriously / personally. Anyway, these two are like total clowns to me. As much as how surreal other characters' fighting move are, Marie Rose's is beyond ridiculous - and she's not even half-human like Alpha or Nyotengu so far I know. Honoka, however, I'm fine with her background story of copying fighters' skills. But they should at least tweak the animation off, so (let's say) Jann Lee's flying kick won't be exact Jann Lee's kick in different body.

 

[KasumiLover]

My only problem is that the AI can be a super psychic cyborgs even in low-mid difficulty. Even worse in DOA5+ since they can even spawn a super tank psychic juggler in stage 3, 5, or 9 in a Rookie survival, arcade, time attack.

My second problem is Marie Rose and Honoka. Btw, fans, please don't take my opinion too seriously / personally. Anyway, these two are like total clowns to me. As much as how surreal other characters' fighting move are, Marie Rose's is beyond ridiculous - and she's not even half-human like Alpha or Nyotengu so far I know. Honoka, however, I'm fine with her background story of copying fighters' skills. But they should at least tweak the animation off, so (let's say) Jann Lee's flying kick won't be exact Jann Lee's kick in different body.

Your opinion is respected. I love Marie and Honoka, but they're not for everyone. I myself don't like Hayate and Ayane very much, for everything they did to Kasumi-san.

 

[Chapstick]

I'm curious how they come up with some of the weird inputs, almost like they sat there like "fuck iono lemme hit these random numbers on the keyboard and make the input that." Raidou's is like It's not hard to do with buffering IIRC but it's so peculiar. I remember looking at some of KoF's inputs too and scratching my head.

While I personally don't like difficult execution because I admittedly suck at it (trying to get better) I understand the point of it is to give bigger rewards for harder work.

 

[KasumiLover]

I'm curious how they come up with some of the weird inputs, almost like they sat there like "fuck iono lemme hit these random numbers on the keyboard and make the input that." Raidou's is like It's not hard to do with buffering IIRC but it's so peculiar. I remember looking at some of KoF's inputs too and scratching my head.

While I personally don't like difficult execution because I admittedly suck at it (trying to get better) I understand the point of it is to give bigger rewards for harder work.

Some inputs are pretty fustrating. Kasumi's combo string makes me want to chop off my afro raw...The input almost never comes out for me.

 

[Lulu]

I would assume that's the Raijin input, now here's a fun fact: That is not Hayate's key throw. If it's a hard input....then ignore it. Even I believe the move is unintelligent but I won't ask Team NINJA to make it easier, simply because it's what? Hayate? I do believe the damage should be increased to fit the needs for such a throw.

I didn't buy this game to ignore a character's move whether it wasn't a key move or not, thats just a waste of money.... there have actually been numerous moves people thought were not all that useful or distinct that turned out to serve a very practical purpose..... and even if it didn't I'd like to test that myself.... you'l forgive me for not taking some one elses word for it.... especially yours.

You don't know what DOA is about if you are actually talking about character execution and make it easier because you yourself as a player cannot do it. You just don't change things for your own personal benefit.

It benefits anybody who was lead to believe this game isn't about execution when it actually is.... bottom line is easier inputs are not going to make the game, its characters or their moves anyworse....

I did. I explained it to you but you believe to have much more knowledge to how the game's approach is and are far too stubborn to even admit it due to providing your theory on how execution should based on your own feelings for how the game should be with easier inputs. All from 1 person. Yeah, good luck with that.

You most definitely did not explain it.... you merely stated you like the inputs hard but never explained why they needed to be in the first place.... thats not explanation.... if you think I have insufficient knowledge about the game then stop cracking wise and educate me.....how do Easier Inputs kill the game ?

You could ask for it to be changed..but it's not a key element to improving the game and chances are slim because the developers don't care. Good luck with that once more. Character design for diversity and complexity for different outcomes. Just like SF, BlazBlue, VF, Tekken and so many other fighting games, and I gotta say....it's quite pure and enjoyable. I mean, you said I didn't know about DOA. Would you like to play some games for that regard into proving that? Who knows, you may win and beat me, but chances are that it may not end well for you on that happening. There has to be some way of proving it!

I couldn't even if I wanted to..... sorry to dissapoint you.

Actually more intuitive inputs designed to ensure people perform the actions they intented to perform not excluding anbody who maybe interested trying the game because they liked some aspect of it, increasing the pool of players goes directly torwards improving the game Significantly..... you simply wouldn't notice. Hell if you're as good as you think you are I bet you haven't even noticed that Hayate's and his don't even have the same leniency.

 

[Lulu]

Some inputs are pretty fustrating. Kasumi's combo string makes me want to chop off my afro raw...The input almost never comes out for me.

All the inputs in DoA have much lower leniency compared to the inputs.... all except throws.... but this only applies to the initial throw.... if its a multipart throw then the leniency of those very same inputs can become character specific.... for example Hayate's iput for his combo throw is less lenient than Tina's input in her Combo Throw....
Its a big part of why I play one over the other.... or I just pick Tina if I get exhausted.
Hayabusa's is the hardest one for me.

 

[Chapstick]

Some inputs are pretty fustrating. Kasumi's combo string makes me want to chop off my afro raw...The input almost never comes out for me.

Just practice that, it's a matter of being quick enough with your fingers. Though it is useful I don't really find myself doing it too much anyhow lol

As for @Argentus you should know the importance of execution considering your characters. The inputs aren't complicated but your timing needs to be on point or else your throws get broken.

 

[Lulu]

I'm curious how they come up with some of the weird inputs, almost like they sat there like "fuck iono lemme hit these random numbers on the keyboard and make the input that." Raidou's is like It's not hard to do with buffering IIRC but it's so peculiar. I remember looking at some of KoF's inputs too and scratching my head.

While I personally don't like difficult execution because I admittedly suck at it (trying to get better) I understand the point of it is to give bigger rewards for harder work.

Some inputs are hard and some inputs are complicated.... its the Difference between Akira's JFK and Hayate's Raijin.

Edit: Some inputs are both.