Zeo's DOA5U Ein Frame Data Chart

[Zeo]

My week break from DOA wasn't exactly as... well... void... of DOA as I'd hoped for. I was doing a lot of thinking about what we've seen and was asking myself "How would I want Ein to play exactly in 5U?" One thing led to another and well, I was able to see it and invisioned my own Ideal version of Ein down to the bone. What you're about to see is fairly in-depth frame data chart for how I think Ein should play in DOA5U. Took a few days but I got it done.

There are various things not present.

- Jumping attacks on downed opponent.
- Taunts
- Wake up kicks (Relevant, even?)
- Active attack frames and recovery frames.
- Frame advantage values on most moves that put you in critical stun on NH.
- Counter Hit and High Counter hit attack behavior (Frame advantage).
- New DOA5U bound and mid-juggle spin properties on attacks.
- Distinguishing Hard/Soft Knockdown on attacks.
- CT/HCT/CH/HCH damage values.
- "Close Hit" damage values.

Maybe I'll be bothered to do a 2nd chart with those properties if I have the time, for now this chart focuses on what should be the most important aspect of the game: the neutral game. Grab a sandwich, soda, coffee if you drink that and have a look through this extensive frame data chart. Maybe you'll agree with some of the changes in my vision.

FD Chart: http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3874/n89u.png (I'll try to make it an attachment too.)
Here it is in Word Doc format also if you want: http://www.sendspace.com/file/01axvh

To get a real idea of how much I changed, you can take a glance at his DOA4 frame data and compare the two.
http://www.deadoralive.jp/doa4/al/pdf/doa4_al-ein-e_on.pdf (PDF)

And of course for those who've forgotten his moves, here's a visual so you can re-educate yourselves.

If you agree with any of these changes and would like to see them in DOA5U as well, retweet my tweet of the chart to Team Ninja's Twitter: https://twitter.com/ZeoRebirth/status/363006005799424000

Please support! It would be amazing if this could reach TN's eyes. Especially Hayashi. Even if it's too late for them to make any changes before release there is always the possibility of future patch changes, characters seem to be getting their due in 5U so far, Ein shouldn't get left behind. Ein players, If you main or even sub Ein, I'd like to ask for your support here. Help get this seen! #BuffEin

Now that we've gotten that all that settled, critique away. Maybe this'll lead to some discussion in this dead section of FSD.

 

[JAG THE GEMINI]

Sounds good and interesting but...Mae-Keriage(4K) only -6 on block..? No way... ^^

 

[Zeo]

Sounds good and interesting but...Mae-Keriage(4K) only -6 on block..? No way... ^^

It's a fairly slow high crush that causes a knockdown on normal hit and an average juggle on counter hit. I definitely think it should be safe.

 

[Tenryuga]

I'd ike to see a safer 66P and PP6P but maybe there's something you know of that justifies -7. Why should his be -7 when Hitomi's is -5 to -6? If 9PK is the same as hayates 8PK make it + on block since its interuptable. Maybe +2 to 3? Would it be too much of a stretch to ask for 6KK to be a sitdown stun or 2 in 1? I like what you have there for 4K but I dont think TN will accept that. Maybe make 4K a bit slower to compensate for the safety? I still think we should ask TN to make a different move his CB. I keep hearing about how great a move 6P+K is. I have never been lucky enough to use it because I never owned a DOA prior to 5 but from what I have seen its a tool I would really like.

 

[Zeo]

I'd ike to see a safer 66P and PP6P but maybe there's something you know of that justifies -7. Why should his be -7 when Hitomi's is -5 to -6? If 9PK is the same as hayates 8PK make it + on block since its interuptable. Maybe +2 to 3? Would it be too much of a stretch to ask for 6KK to be a sitdown stun or 2 in 1? I like what you have there for 4K but I dont think TN will accept that. Maybe make 4K a bit slower to compensate for the safety? I still think we should ask TN to make a different move his CB. I keep hearing about how great a move 6P+K is. I have never been lucky enough to use it because I never owned a DOA prior to 5 but from what I have seen its a tool I would really like.

66P and it's variants on block was a tough call. I compared all his and Hitomi's shared move's FD and adjusted accordingly, I was on the fence as to what I thought it should be on block. If I recall Hitomi's was -7 on block as well. In the end I couldn't come to a decision and settled for not changing it from DOA4.

I was on the fence with 9PK (same as Hayate's yes). I didn't think as a GB it should be unsafe but considering the insane frame recovery on the actual move I didn't see how it could give advantage on block. I ended up settling for 0.

Funny you mention 6KK as I had a tough time with this one, it was one of the many things I changed before I finalized this chart (One of them being 46P being an incredibly silly +2 guard break). I was originally going to put it as a SDS but I thought that would be a little too silly as you could just do CH Stun > 6KK > CB/Launch. But considering Hayate has something like that I suppose it might not be too good. A 2-in-1 was a good Idea too but I ended up settling for making it safe. I feel it would be really easy to make this move too good.

4K is just a poke that crushes highs. Gives a decent juggle on CH and a hard knockdown on NH. I don't think it should be unsafe on block but that of course is my opinion. We've already nerfed the speed on his best poke, let's not nerf another.

And yes, 6P+K was amazing. Here's a good video of it in action. It's the move at 0:13)

 

[JAG THE GEMINI]

@Zeo

4k slow and a high crush? It´s really fast(13i) and has no TC frames. It´s the number one move in Ein´s arsenal which hepled him to be competitive without! playing the "stun-game" like others had to and one of the best launches in DOA history imo. To make it safe would be... too much.

Yes, 6P+K was awesome... But only in DOA4. In DOA2 and DOA3 it was sh*t... But even in DOA4 it was really unsafe on block. I´ll either try to "live" with the new and speedwise nerfed 6P+K or i might add 9P as my main whiff and "punch-tool".

BTW, this is how i played with Ein in DOA4:

I am always the "Karateka-Ein" fighting against people like THE TACTICAL or KOf06.

Bad Quality... But awww the memories...

 

[Zeo]

@Zeo

4k slow and a high crush? It´s really fast(13i) and has no TC frames. It´s the number one move in Ein´s arsenal which hepled him to be competitive without! playing the "stun-game" like others had to and one of the best launches in DOA history imo. To make it safe would be... too much.

Yes, 6P+K was awesome... But only in DOA4. In DOA2 and DOA3 it was sh*t... But even in DOA4 it was really unsafe on block. I´ll either try to "live" with the new and speedwise nerfed 6P+K or i might add 9P as my main whiff and "punch-tool".

Yeah you're right I accidently looked at the wrong move. But yeah 4K is actually VERY fast but considering Rig gets a 12 frame Mid kick which also launches on counter hit and gets him a juggle I don't see this being terribly broken, especially considering Rig can make his safe. I stand by it being safe as well. A poke being unsafe is just... silly.

Yes 6P+K was lol in 2/3 and unsafe in 4 but in 4 it gave a bit of pushback and was basically safe if used from a distance, considering the speed nerf it's getting in 5U I hope it's made completely safe like Hayate and Hitomi's CBs.

 

[JAG THE GEMINI]

Yeah you're right I accidently looked at the wrong move. But yeah 4K is actually VERY fast but considering Rig gets a 12 frame Mid kick which also launches on counter hit and gets him a juggle I don't see this being terribly broken, especially considering Rig can make his safe. I stand by it being safe as well. A poke being unsafe is just... silly.

To make 4K safe wouldn´t be terrible broken, but it´s imo not right... It should be semi unsafe... Like -9 plus decent pushback or something like that. And about Rig... Don´t care about him but it´s correct that he has maybe an even better launcher.

Yes 6P+K was lol in 2/3 and unsafe in 4 but in 4 it gave a bit of pushback and was basically safe if used from a distance, considering the speed nerf it's getting in 5U I hope it's made completely safe like Hayate and Hitomi's CBs.

The pushback of 6P+K in DOA4 was never even decent... But the move was great as a whiff punishment tool in general. And Yep, 6P+K in DOAU5 should be completly safe considering it´s slower speed now.

 

[Zeo]

To make 4K safe wouldn´t be terrible broken, but it´s imo not right... It should be semi unsafe... Like -9 plus decent pushback or something like that.

I don't think we'll agree on this, a poke like that being unsafe just doesn't sit right with me at all. The fact that it's been -15 since DOA3 is just ridiculous to me. As for Rig, weather or not you care about him the fact is he has the tool you say Ein shouldn't have, and arguably a better version in nearly every way possible. Point being Ein's being safe would be fine. To each his own though. TN ultimately will decide.

The pushback of 6P+K in DOA4 was never even decent... But the move was great as a whiff punishment tool in general. And Yep, 6P+K in DOAU5 should be completly safe considering it´s slower speed now.

It was like I said semi-safe from a distance because at that distance it gave a little bit of pushback to give it that extra safety. Of course the pushback wouldn't be enough if you did it point blank. And yes, I'm hoping it's safe in 5U too.

Decent matches by the way, I know they're old though so it's not my place to critique how you played so I'll leave my thoughts to myself.

 

[JAG THE GEMINI]

I don't think we'll agree on this, a poke like that being unsafe just doesn't sit right with me at all. The fact that it's been -15 since DOA3 is just ridiculous to me. As for Rig, weather or not you care about him the fact is he has the tool you say Ein shouldn't have, and arguably a better version in nearly every way possible. Point being Ein's being safe would be fine. To each his own though. TN ultimately will decide.

But 4K is no poke. It´s more of a launcher than everything else. And fast launcher being safe can always cause problems when it comes to balancing. And who knows, maybe Rigs 12i launcher is nerfed in DOA5U..?

It was like I said semi-safe from a distance because at that distance it gave a little bit of pushback to give it that extra safety. Of course the pushback wouldn't be enough if you did it point blank. And yes, I'm hoping it's safe in 5U too.

Decent matches by the way, I know they're old though so it's not my place to critique how you played so I'll leave my thoughts to myself.

The problem is that even if 6P+K hit from a far distance, the opponent could close the gap by pressing 66 to dash forward and still throw you afaik. I tested that in DOA4 years ago. But yeah, hopefully it is safe in DOA5U.

And I think I did a pretty good job Online back in DOA4. Won a tournament here in germany once too. But I admit, it was not much of a big deal.

 

[Zeo]

But 4K is no poke. It´s more of a launcher than everything else. And fast launcher being safe can always cause problems when it comes to balancing. And who knows, maybe Rigs 12i launcher is nerfed in DOA5U..?

4K is only a launcher on counter hit though, and the damage isn't spectacular to boot. Plenty of characters have counter hit launchers with reasonable damage combo followups. On normal hit it just causes a hard knockdown, you could force tech in 4 but in 5U you might even have to guess wakeup kick, and that's horrible in any situation. As far as bad balance goes, there are plenty of things you could do to make Ein broken, that's not one of them.

As for Rig's? Doubtful. It'll still have to be respected because of it's followup even if it's safety is reduced.

The problem is that even if 6P+K hit from a far distance, the opponent could close the gap by pressing 66 to dash forward and still throw you afaik. I tested that in DOA4 years ago. But yeah, hopefully it is safe in DOA5U.

And I think I did a pretty good job Online back in DOA4. Won a tournament here in germany once too. But I admit, it was not much of a big deal.

You could dash forward and punish that? That's news to me but I'll take your word for it, never seen anyone do that? And you won a tourney eh? Props either way. I hope you have Xbox Live come 5U. We can have some Ein mirrors.

 

[UpSideDownGRUNT]

Hmmm this is interesting, good stuff Zeo. I wish I was more savvy with this stuff and but I've only just recently got into this (I was a casual until recently) so I know next to nothing.

When I mained Ein back in the day I just played it by ear and relied on my personal skill level.

 

[Zeo]

I was a casual as well, still am for the most part. But DOA5 and it's frame data training really made it easy for me to learn safety, what makes things tick and a lot of other stuff. I'm kinda just really getting into it all. But honestly, despite the bull of online and the power of the hold, playing more respectful to frames gives you a lot more efficient of a style.

That being said, you can understand the chart pretty easily if you don't already, the quick terminology read and safety paragraph pretty much covers everything you need to know. At that point it's just a matter of knowing what input does each move for Ein which I'm pretty sure you know already.

 

[UpSideDownGRUNT]

I was a casual as well, still am for the most part. But DOA5 and it's frame data training really made it easy for me to learn safety, what makes things tick and a lot of other stuff. I'm kinda just really getting into it all. But honestly, despite the bull of online and the power of the hold, playing more respectful to frames gives you a lot more efficient of a style.

That being said, you can understand the chart pretty easily if you don't already, the quick terminology read and safety paragraph pretty much covers everything you need to know. At that point it's just a matter of knowing what input does each move for Ein which I'm pretty sure you know already.

Yeah, I can read it quite well.

It's now just going through it a few times to make sure it sticks with me, as I'm guessing the chart is based on his current iterations.

So it's kinda like going through a command list over and over until you know each input (or in this case the frame data) like your hand.

 

[Zeo]

Yeah, I can read it quite well.

It's now just going through it a few times to make sure it sticks with me, as I'm guessing the chart is based on his current iterations.

So it's kinda like going through a command list over and over until you know each input (or in this case the frame data) like your hand.

Fair enough, going through the motions and what you remember of how he played (particularly in 4 which is what he's most likely based off of in 5U) you'll probably get your own idea of what should be safe/unsafe/advantage etc. Then you can look at his atrocious frame data from 4 and HOPE most of it doesn't get transferred to 5U.

 

[TakedaZX]

I'll be honest with you Zeo, I couldn't ever see 4K as a safe move. I think the description you were looking for anyway was "counter poke", not "poke". Because no matter what, there was some sort of pay off for catching someone not blocking so it and it was quick overall.

I'll take -8 but no lower than that.

As for 6p+k, I think most all of us can agree that we want the 14i version back. Hell I'd love that as well as a completely new CB animation for him instead of that move. In reality though besides the speed, a crumple stun would be nice for it too so it could force some pressure since they wouldn't be able to SE out of it... I'm not sure if that was the situation before.

On the flip side though, while I am worried about him being safe and what not, and having good stuns and just overall good frames... I'm more occupied with my idea of giving him a stance (like JL's Dragon Stance, or Jin's Crouching Demon Stance from Tekken, more so the latter), to give him slightly more mix-up and a few juggle opportunities in places he needs them. The mix-up would never exceed JL or Hitomi though. At most it'd put him on par with JL without the Dragon Gunner + Dragon Stance values.

Of course this isn't the place to go into more detail about that though, since were talking frames.
[Sorry for typo's but I'm typing from my ps3 and it's so slow that it's not worth it to go back and fix the errors... bare with me

 

[Zeo]

I'll be honest with you Zeo, I couldn't ever see 4K as a safe move. I think the description you were looking for anyway was "counter poke", not "poke". Because no matter what, there was some sort of pay off for catching someone not blocking so it and it was quick overall.

I'll take -8 but no lower than that.

As for 6p+k, I think most all of us can agree that we want the 14i version back. Hell I'd love that as well as a completely new CB animation for him instead of that move. In reality though besides the speed, a crumple stun would be nice for it too so it could force some pressure since they wouldn't be able to SE out of it... I'm not sure if that was the situation before.

Interesting that everyone seems to want that to be unsafe. It'll be very interesting to see what the frames on 4K end up being. Maybe you'll all be happy, but I'll shoot myself in the foot if it's -15 again. I can't even fathom how a move like that can be that unsafe. I just don't want this to turn into DOA4 where I'm getting punished for everything I'm doing.

As for 6P+K, yeah it was a crumple stun. VERY good move and unSEable. If a new move could take it's place that would be really nice though I'd like if we just got the original back. P+K covered a good deal of distance and had it's own followup as well as giving a crumple stun. If they could tone it down to around 15 or so frames it could seemingly take it's place. As it stands Ein doesn't have any easymode ways of getting a stun anymore (that we know of anyway).

On the flip side though, while I am worried about him being safe and what not, and having good stuns and just overall good frames... I'm more occupied with my idea of giving him a stance (like JL's Dragon Stance, or Jin's Crouching Demon Stance from Tekken, more so the latter), to give him slightly more mix-up and a few juggle opportunities in places he needs them. The mix-up would never exceed JL or Hitomi though. At most it'd put him on par with JL without the Dragon Gunner + Dragon Stance values.

Of course this isn't the place to go into more detail about that though, since were talking frames.

If you'd like to go into detail about that then make a topic or bring it up in the Ein topic, this dead section could use some discussion. I will say though that a stance would kind of go against Ein's "basic" playstyle that he's known for. A stance could potentially make him a bit gimmicky.

 

[MajesticBlue]

Im really curious if they are gonna base him on his Doa 4 or Doad self. He had lots of Small changes in Doad. I may post some later. Not that they matter too much.

 

[TakedaZX]

Interesting that everyone seems to want that to be unsafe. It'll be very interesting to see what the frames on 4K end up being. Maybe you'll all be happy, but I'll shoot myself in the foot if it's -15 again. I can't even fathom how a move like that can be that unsafe. I just don't want this to turn into DOA4 where I'm getting punished for everything I'm doing.

As for 6P+K, yeah it was a crumple stun. VERY good move and unSEable. If a new move could take it's place that would be really nice though I'd like if we just got the original back. P+K covered a good deal of distance and had it's own followup as well as giving a crumple stun. If they could tone it down to around 15 or so frames it could seemingly take it's place. As it stands Ein doesn't have any easymode ways of getting a stun anymore (that we know of anyway).


If you'd like to go into detail about that then make a topic or bring it up in the Ein topic, this dead section could use some discussion. I will say though that a stance would kind of go against Ein's "basic" playstyle that he's known for. A stance could potentially make him a bit gimmicky.

Of course we don't want it to be unsafe, but you have to understand the idea of risk vs reward.

So here we have a 13i launcher that's going to check about every 13i mid and probably some 13i highs while completely shutting down any 14i attack in general. To go further, it's basically a NH launcher (in DOA4 )because, yes an untechable KD can give guaranteed damage meanining the opponent might as well be launched. So the player is getting guaranteed damage everytime that move hits, guaranteed damage beyond the initial hit (let alone the forced tech advantage).

On top of that, only 12i moves will completely interrupt it and with the exception of 12i launchers (kasumi 8k, Rig 8k, Pai K), There isn't really that much to fear, which are all unsafe, especially any mid launchers. Pulling Rig's 8k out (because of it's popularity in this conversation, it's beyond -8 and has a follow up behind it which is also ass tons of unsafe. On NH, he has to deal with the stun game. There is no 2 in 1 untechable forced tech situation unless he sets it up well which is still something that re requires timing on his part.

As for 13i mids, I'm compelled to say that there isn't a 12i deep stun in existence, so if you are counter blown, chances are you can SE your opponent's stun down to little to nothing, so being counter blown is less scary. The fastest CH deep stun I know of is Kasumi's 3p which is 13i, which leads to my earlier point: 13i mids will get checked.

So to sum it up: You take away the risk of deep stuns at r1f, and the risk of more damaging techniques or juggles by using 4K. You also get guaranteeed damage everytime this move lands so if you play your cards right, that's a big damage juggle or untechable setup depending on how bad your opponent screws up. Also it has pushback right? -8 takes away that dash in guaranteed punish.

In the end, you sacrifice a chance at counter blowing the opponent with a follow up because 4k is a stand alone move. Also your juggles can and will be mediocre damage but more than sufficient. Also, in most cases, between 3p and 4k, you've got two possibly always unSEable launchers with a bnb juggle that works for both (Stun, 3p, 3p (which launches from doubling up on it), or stun, 3p, 3k which both at this point can go into 3p, 6kk for a juggle).

-8 is more than fair.

Also, you have me twisted. I want 6P+K back as it was and for a different move to be made his CB (P+K would be easy mode to switch over but a new strike in general would make me just as happy, if not more..

 

[Zeo]

So to sum it up: You take away the risk of deep stuns at r1f, and the risk of more damaging techniques or juggles by using 4K. You also get guaranteeed damage everytime this move lands so if you play your cards right, that's a big damage juggle or untechable setup depending on how bad your opponent screws up. Also it has pushback right? -8 takes away that dash in guaranteed punish.

In the end, you sacrifice a chance at counter blowing the opponent with a follow up because 4k is a stand alone move. Also your juggles can and will be mediocre damage but more than sufficient. Also, in most cases, between 3p and 4k, you've got two possibly always unSEable launchers with a bnb juggle that works for both (Stun, 3p, 3p (which launches from doubling up on it), or stun, 3p, 3k which both at this point can go into 3p, 6kk for a juggle).

-8 is more than fair.

Also, you have me twisted. I want 6P+K back as it was and for a different move to be made his CB (P+K would be easy mode to switch over but a new strike in general would make me just as happy, if not more..

Perhaps you might be right but you have to remember it was said force techs were all but removed in DOA5U so on NH seemingly all you would get is a knockdown, in Rig's case playing stun game could potentially garner more fruit as opposed to guaranteeing things going back to neutral. On CH yes a 13 frame launcher is really nice and the juggle damage is pretty fair. I suppose -6 WOULD be a little much. White flag, I'll have to agree with you on -8. Just... God not -15 again, anything lower than -14. I'll even take Hayate's 1K's -10.

Oh and... yeah considering Ein's 3P probably caused the deepest stun of any fast mid in 4, I guess having two safe mid launch options would be a little... well... amazing. Chances are you'll be able to CB off of it in 5U.

Also, you have me twisted. I want 6P+K back as it was and for a different move to be made his CB (P+K would be easy mode to switch over but a new strike in general would make me just as happy, if not more..

Oh my bad, but chances are his new 6P+K is here to stay. A new strike taking it's place is more realistic hence my suggestion but I would love to see 6P+K return to it's original form.

Im really curious if they are gonna base him on his Doa 4 or Doad self. He had lots of Small changes in Doad. I may post some later. Not that they matter too much.

It's worth posting imo. DOAD does exist and some of his move properties from there might transfer into 5U over 4. Though I'd just prefer buffs all around.