The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread

[Berzerk!]

I know that not many people play Bass or have played against Bass players, but how do you rate him. I just want to know some general opinion regarding Bass before we move onto Ultimate.

Bass is good overall, with great damage, some good, solid setups he can go for and really hurt the opponent even if he is down at first.

The problem is there are too many moves that get flat beaten out by faster characters, meaning in a mix up poking game he's not going to get in, and his limited opportunities become less. Even with an opening, he has very little that is truly guaranteed, just an advantaged mind game, so if the opponent gets out twice or more, he's in big trouble.

Just needs a few moves to start up faster and/or have more solid properties, like 6H+K needing to tech jump right away and be active earlier (so random mids started later don't knock him out of it - people should sidestep or block), he needs his hellstab P+K to actually go fast, and/or the 1P, 2P (P) moves to tech crouch better. Finally his pickup could do with just one guaranteed something.

 

[Codemaster92163]

The biggest issue Bass has is that he's just a 300 pound guessing game. Until he hits you, he has nothing really going for him. No speed, no evasive abilities, very few crushes, fairly telegraphed moves. He needs to hit you to get anything going (or punish throw you, which granted is a great tool in his arsenal), and while he has a lot of power, he revolves around guessing whether the opponent will sidestep on wake-up, block on wake-up, or attack on wake-up. If he guesses wrong, he's in trouble because he once again has to rely on his slow-ass attacks to get a stun once more or for the opponent to finish an unsafe string.

It's not that he's bad - he just doesn't have the tools to be as amazing as he can be. Power alone doesn't make a character. Of course he has his fair share of guaranteed damage, but the 9PP sitdown stun can easily be reacted to and countered every time, and so few people fall for his BT T (or 2P him out of it) that his other absurdly strong guaranteed string doesn't account for much.

Now don't get me wrong, bass isn't horrible - his 6T punish throw does an amazing job of starting his offensive, but he's not as good as he can be, and he relies on a rather boring game of "read right or die", moreso I feel than the rest of the cast.

 

[Matt Ponton]

His most damaging options are from throws. The problem is he has trouble starting pressure, and landing those throws is difficult enough because it requires the opponent to be scared enough to hold, or scared enough to guard. Players feel safer by pressing the attack button.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I feel like Bass Helljab should be a bit safer, he gets punished if it's blocked just for trying to poke at his opponents. Being at -8 for poking is pretty bad, making it at least -4 seems more reasonable, or do you guys think it's fine the way it is? Because I don't, honestly. Has it always been that disadvantageous on block?

 

[DontForkWitMe]

Bass may be low tier but what about Mr.Strong?

 

[Matt Ponton]

It's always been that disadvantaged, it's the price he pays for being faster than his jab.

 

[Berzerk!]

yeah but its slower than other jabs and some mids!

 

[UncleKitchener]

After a while, I just think to myself 'I don't need this shit, really. I'll start playing a rush down character instead'..The system is really against him seeing as most of his damage comes from his throws on HCT and for me to actually get into a situation where I can actually fish for those, I need to get a hit in firs or to catch them, guarding.

I have to put too much effort not to get hit in the first place and most of my buttons get beaten out very easily.

As time went on I realized that some of his other tools are also really pointless, namely his charged OH which I think by far the worst OH in the game because you have to pretty much land the fully charge version on someone who either made an input error or someone who is not mashing and not a total beginner. Even the 28i version isn't worth it sometimes because people are going to press buttons constantly.

Maybe it's just me being a sore impatient loser here, but it really puts me down when I start just losing hard as Bass. If he doesn't get any sort of speed buffs or magical crushes, then that would potentially put him in the same tier.

 

[David Gregg]

I also have plenty more tips to give you if you are humble enough to learn.

For the sake of the thread, since you know things that the rest of us don't. Tell us why he is in B-tier in your eyes. I'm sorry, the moves you listed don't help his case all that much. Is it any more?

Look Allan I'm sorry if I came across as rude I was just tired of all the Eliot dissing and snapped a little. The more that I think about it I really can't give you any real reason why he is B-tier other than the fact that I have mained him and Hitomi since 4 and have had similar win/lose ratios with both characters (so in my eyes he was never below Hitomi). The way that I've played him (in terms of attacks at least) is mixing up highs and lows (basically 1 hit jabs) which I unconsciously have done since experience has taught me that I can almost never get more than a 4 hit combo in unless I've managed to launch the opponent with , (back turned), or against good players due to his easy predictability + lack of guarantees.

You're right, he's not a good fighter but I wanted to at least throw out the idea that it doesn't mean he's past redemption and that you have no hope against good fighter online. I'm hoping he's had some helpful buffs in ultimate I've already noticed a few changes in the gameplay vids so maybe now he has a shot at being a B.

 

[Codemaster92163]

After talking extensively about our reasoning (for each character at that), me and Allan Paris constructed a fairly accurate (considering our combined time spent with the character and with the match-ups) match-up list.

Akira (4-6)
Alpha (6-4)
Ayane (5-5)
Bass (5-5)
Bayman (4-6)
Brad Wong (5-5)
Christie (4-6)
Eliot (6-4)
Gen Fu (5-5)
Hayabusa (5-5)
Hayate (5-5)
Helena (5-5)
Hitomi (5-5)
Jann (5-5)
Kasumi (5-5)
Kokoro (6-4)
La Mariposa (6-4)
Leifang (4-6)
Mila (4-6)
Rig (6-4)
Sarah (4-6)
Tina (6-4)
Zack (6-4)

If you wish to argue something, just let us know. We have explanations (most fairly long) for each character. For example, while Hajin feels strongly that Ayane is at the advantage, both me and Paris feel it's more even than that.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Nay, I'm looking at that particular match up again since the night you brought it up, there are a few things about Pai I overlooked before. I can agree that it is about 5-5.

 

[Matt Ponton]

After talking extensively about our reasoning (for each character at that), me and Allan Paris constructed a fairly accurate (considering our combined time spent with the character and with the match-ups) match-up list.

You didn't list Tina or Busa. However, I updated the list anyways.

Based on the current in progress match-up chart, here are the current tiers:
July 22, 2013 10:23 PM (GMT - 5)
S: Leifang, Christie, Ayane, Kasumi, Sarah
A: Jann Lee, Akira, Pai
B: ALPHA-152, Gen Fu, Mila, (Ryu) Hayabusa
C: Brad Wong, Helena, Hitomi, Hayate, Lisa, Bayman
D: Kokoro, Tina, Rig, Zack, Bass, Eliot

Currently, the following are marked Final Draft: Akira, Ayane, Bass, Bayman, Christie, Eliot, Hitomi, Kokoro, Leifang, Rig, Pai, Sarah, and Zack. All other characters are still in progress although practically close to final draft due to the other characters in a final draft state.

It should be noted that I created a fifth tier. These are characters that have a perfect balanced match up list (115 points). It's not really that the characters in the old C tier have fallen that much further into a whole other class as the look applies. It's more that I in previous tier lists I have been lumping those 115s into either the A or (now) C class depending on how many characters were in A or C. This was an improper way of doing it I feel so I've decided that tier B is for those characters specifically.

It is shown in the third sheet, but here are the point divisions anyways:
S: Character has greater than 120 MU points
A: Character has 116 to 120 MU points (5 point range)
B: Character is neutral at 115 MU points
C: Character has 111 to 114 MU points (5 point range)
D: Character has less than 111 MU points.

 

[synce]

I think Ayane and Brad are 6-4 Pai (they easily evade her 6P, IIRC Brad even evades 2P). Only if 66H+K still guaranteed decent damage I would say 5-5 Ayane is right.

And for the love of god someone fix Lisa's chart or at least explain to me those silly numbers she has up there now. No way they're post-1.03

 

[Codemaster92163]

66H+K does still guarantee damage - it just doesn't extent her juggles in the air any longer. You still get guaranteed launchers/2P+K T from it.

Evasion is one thing, and Paris and I took that into account when determining numbers. That's actually why they're even - they are certainly evasive, but Pai doesn't consist of just 6P. Besides, she's fairly evasive herself. Brad doesn't really evade 2P. I've not witnessed that myself, at the very least. Most of his best attacks are low kicks and mid kicks, both of which guarantee Pai more damage than most of the cast as well as force tech options and even a mix-up option if they opt for it. 66H+K often leads to a CH against Brad as well. However, Brad is lacking in speed/frames, which is why his evasion boosts him up to 5-5. Without it, this match-up would be in Pai's favor.

Ayane usually has the advantage over most characters, but it's Pai's own evasion/speed/frames that make the fight in her favor when the fight is up close (which most fights have to be at one point or another). Now Ayane is great at shutting down sidesteppers, but Pai's SS attacks are already lackluster, so it's only a modest point in Ayane's favor. Now at a distance, Pai has issues. This is essentially the same sort of problems we have with Jann, but they only maintain the advantage for as long as Ayane and Jann keep her spaced out due to her fairly horrible gap closers (66H+K aside). At present, Pai has force techs, which allow her to do a competent job of keeping the fight toe-to-toe until she makes a mistake. Ayane needs to guess correctly for a counter or wait to crush a string, but poking and throw loops help make that course of action difficult. But again, as soon as a divide forms between the two, Ayane gains the advantage. In all, they both perform best at their respective distances, and it's their fairly equal ability to maintain that spacing (or non-spacing) which leaves them at a mostly neutral position match-up wise.

That match-up, I feel, can be influenced by stage, though. Getting caught in a claustrophobic map helps Pai out quite a bit, while more open stages (especially Tatami/Dojo) aids Ayane.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Honestly, stage selection does not hinder Ayane or her mobility at all in this game. Any stage with ceilings actually benefit her more and being next to wall is the last place you want Ayane to have you next to.
Ayane also has force tech at all of her launch heights and it is dangerous if she catches you in it (but that can be said about anyone's options after force tech). Pai is faster than Ayane in CQC, yes, but Ayane handles speed just fine upclose. Her tools upclose (P, 8K, 4P, 1P, 2P, 64H, K, KK, 6P, 6K, 46H). Side stepping Ayane is also one of the riskiest things to do against her.

 

[Codemaster92163]

You didn't list Tina or Busa. However, I updated the list anyways.

Sorry. I forgot Tina, and had Hyabusa listed as Ryu (old habit). Edited my post, though

 

[DR2K]

Honestly, stage selection does not hinder Ayane or her mobility at all in this game. Any stage with ceilings actually benefit her more and being next to wall is the last place you want Ayane to have you next to.
Ayane also has force tech at all of her launch heights and it is dangerous if she catches you in it (but that can be said about anyone's options after force tech). Pai is faster than Ayane in CQC, yes, but Ayane handles speed just fine upclose. Her tools upclose (P, 8K, 4P, 1P, 2P, 64H, K, KK, 6P, 6K, 46H). Side stepping Ayane is also one of the riskiest things to do against her.

A smaller stage makes her range tools less effective.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

No it doesn't, lol.

 

[HaJiN]

You didn't list Tina or Busa. However, I updated the list anyways.

Based on the current in progress match-up chart, here are the current tiers:
July 22, 2013 10:23 PM (GMT - 5)
S: Leifang, Christie, Ayane, Kasumi, Sarah
A: Jann Lee, Akira, Pai
B: ALPHA-152, Gen Fu, Mila, (Ryu) Hayabusa
C: Brad Wong, Helena, Hitomi, Hayate, Lisa, Bayman
D: Kokoro, Tina, Rig, Zack, Bass, Eliot

Why is it that Helena keeps going lower and lower on the chart? I always thought she was a very strong character.
Also, what puts Kasumi at the top besides her speed, and her F+K set up? She seems on the weaker side to me.
and lastly, how isn't Gen Fu top tier? Aside from his short limbs, he has some of the best tools in the game.

can someone please explain this to me?

As for the rest of the S tier, I completely agree that Christie, Leifang, Ayane, and Sarah are top. I would even go as far as saying that Christie and Sarah are the best characters in the game. I imagine TN's hands are tied by Sega when it comes to Sarah, but Christie should be toned down in 5U. She is that unbelievably good.

 

[Crext]

Eliot and Bass deserves their own "E" bracket.