The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread

[Allan Paris]

what puts Kasumi at the top besides her speed, and her F+K set up? She seems on the weaker side to me.

She has a plethora of match ups in her favor, that is what put her there. As of now she is far from weak but what do you mean by saying, "She seems on the weaker side?"

.
and lastly, how isn't Gen Fu top tier? Aside from his short limbs, he has some of the best tools in the game.

Gen Fu doesn't have the juice anymore. He can still do work but he lost the tools that made him ridiculous back in the day. His crush moves don't go through everything and he lost some properties to a move that was a true mid, I forget which one it was but I know it was used often. He's still a dangerous character but there's a reason why you don't see him run rampant at offline tournaments anymore. There are characters that are simply better than him now.

 

[SilverForte]

Why the heck is Rig low tier?

 

[UprisingJC]

Why is it that Helena keeps going lower and lower on the chart? I always thought she was a very strong character.
Also, what puts Kasumi at the top besides her speed, and her F+K set up? She seems on the weaker side to me.
and lastly, how isn't Gen Fu top tier? Aside from his short limbs, he has some of the best tools in the game.

can someone please explain this to me?

As for the rest of the S tier, I completely agree that Christie, Leifang, Ayane, and Sarah are top. I would even go as far as saying that Christie and Sarah are the best characters in the game. I imagine TN's hands are tied by Sega when it comes to Sarah, but Christie should be toned down in 5U. She is that unbelievably good.

I think Kasumi's currently thought to be at the top by people partly because of her H+K and her 66T that allow her to have high and guaranteed damage output.(Only some characters like Christie are able to avoid them)

Most of the players that think Kasumi to be strong because of her strikes and her throws. The following may be some of the reasons for those who think her to be strong:


1.You don't need to care if you're in an open or a closed stance with your opponent when using her H+K, unlike her 6H+K and Bayman's 8K. Once her H+K hits her opponent, a large amount of damage is (almost) guaranteed.

2.66T is a 7f throw and after 66T T -> 6P6K -> PKK7K6P+KKK causees 75+ damage. It's high for a 7-frame throw.

3.She has a lot of good mid and low follow-ups:
P - PPP, PP6P and PP2K
PPPP and PPP2K
6P - 6PK and 6P2K
3P - 3PP and 3P2K
4P - 4PK and 4P2K

All the low follow-ups listed above stun her opponent on Normal Hit. Her opponent has to decide whether to block her mid or low follow-up when defending.

4.Her speed - 9f p, 11f 6p and 12f 2p. It's self-explanatory I guess.

5.She has some pokes or whiff punishers that make her able to fight when she's not close to her opponent
a.3P+KP, 6PP, 9KP, P+K6_P...etc
b.6PK - Has hitbox issues
c.H+K
d.66K - Has hitbox issues
e.66PP
f.9K - I was hesitating whether to list this one or not as it knocks ur opponent down on the ground on normal hit instead of stunning him/her as it used to in DOA4. It'd be one of her good whiff punisher if it works as it does in DOA4.

Against characters with poor evasiveness like Jann Lee, she can also be a threat to him. However, once she's facing characters like Ayane, Hayabusa and Lisa, some of the strikers above(such as 66K) are not recommended.

6.She has parries.

Those may be her strong points that I currently can think of(I'm also a Kasumi player...), and now it's time to talk about her weakness.(Some of them are my own opinions.)


1.She's highly unsafe - She will be punished by a throw if she finishes most of her last strings and gets blocked by her opponent.

2.She lacks good CB combo setups - Once she stuns her opponent, I feel she has VERY FINITE CB combo setups compared with characters like Hitomi and Kokoro. Her 3K is not that useful for extending the stun like some other characters. For example: After stunning her opponent and using her 3K to extend the stun, if you intend to use her jab, 6p,4p or 3p to extend the stun, YOU HAVE TO DASH FORWARD A BIT or your attack will whiff unless you use her 66P, 6K or 66K.(Characters like Bayman and Hitomi don't have this problem)

However, she's currently not the type of characters that need CB that much because she still has some other tools like her H+K in hand. But who knows if she'll still be like this in DOA5U...

3.She's highly limited when she's kept out by some characters like Busa and Ayane.
Her strikes cover less distance than Busa and Ayane do. Besides, her attacks like 66K has hitbox issues.
66K is a mid-kick attack but it still gets evaded if ur opponent uses strikes like Leifang's 1P, Busa's 33P and Ayane's 4P. You 66K won't get them and Kasumi will get launched by them instead.

As for her 66PP, the second hit is fast but it's a high attack and it's recovery is way too LONG. Your opponent is able to crouch to make 66PP whiff and them punish Kasumi with a 12-frame throw.


I'm making this post too long...I guess I'll just stop here now.

 

[TRI Mike]

Why the heck is Rig low tier?

Because no one uses him and people are completely ignorant to what he's capable of. Same with Tina.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Because no one uses him and people are completely ignorant to what he's capable of. Same with Tina.

Tina is just a shit version of Lisa sadly.

They're about the same speed on pokes but Lisa has better crushes, more ranged tools, better tracking moves, tons more frame advantage on block, her jumping OH's start up faster, Tina's is laughably slow and Lisa has better guaranteed damage.

I like Tina as a character, she's fun to use but she has nothing that is scary outside of her HC throws which Lisa and other characters like Busa can do just as well whilst excelling in other area's.

What she needs is more frame advantage. Characters with slow pokes should have more frame advantage on knock down or on block. Why Tina doesn't have these things is beyond me. 46P being +1? Come on make it at least +2 or 3.

 

[Brute]

Tina is just a shit version of Lisa sadly.
[...] Tina's is laughably slow and Lisa has better guaranteed damage.

Lisa has a 364T?

[Tina] has nothing that is scary outside of her HC throws which Lisa and other characters like Busa can do just as well

Hayabusa has a 364T?

Tina's strings are more delayable than either Lisa or Busa as well, which works great for HiC throw baiting. She also has more low string mix-ups than Ryu. Long story short: Tina has her own merits.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Tina is actually very solid, I'd advise people to read Koompbala's Tina Guide in the Tina forums if you already haven't. Educate yourselves, lol.

 

[Rapham0n]

Eliot and Bass deserves their own "E" bracket.

Seriously? They can't be that bad, can they? I have used Eliot myself a little bit and he doesn't seem all that bad. I'm actually surprised to see him in bottom tier in the first place.

 

[TRI Mike]

Omegan's opinion on Tina is just the generic opinion on Tina... How I'd love for someone to step up and play her seriously in a tournament.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

Because no one uses him and people are completely ignorant to what he's capable of.

This seems to be true for about half of the cast, unfortunately.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I think what we'll need to start actually doing when DOA5U releases, is actually start talking more with one another so that tech and other things can be found and discussed (discuss things more civil-like and not trash each other because we may disagree about something) within' our respective character forums.

This whole "hide shit and keep it a secret" mannerisms people have doesn't help and that is partially why our game doesn't have a completed tier list yet. Only a few of us members here actually openly share information with other people on the forums and that is how some of us actually see a lot of things other people fail to see.

The sooner we can cooperate more together and discuss our characters strengths and weaknesses, along with massive play and tournament experience. The sooner we can start establishing our tier list and things can change from there over time through DOA5U's life.

 

[crapoZK]

Because no one uses him and people are completely ignorant to what he's capable of. Same with Tina and Zack

Fixed.

 

[synce]

If there's a reason people keep things a secret it's probably because they don't want to give noobs a list of what they should tell TN to nerf. Like there's some stuff about 5U if people knew they would definitely cry to be nerfed already, and yeah people are hypocrites they do cry for nerfs even on this site.

 

[Einzelkind]

I finally had time to go through most of the thread and honestly, I still don't quite get what puts Christie at the top - especially over characters like Jann Lee or Gen Fu. I play her myself and I've played quite a few good Christe players and I absolutely agree that some characters like Eliot and Kokoro have horrible match-ups against her and that she's one of the better characters in the game, but she still has some heavy flaws and lacks options for guaranteed damage unlike Sarah for example. Her throws and holds are absolutely terrible and I think - except for her evasiveness - everything she does, Kasumi does better. Her placement seems to stem from her Jaheiko sidestep mostly, but in my opinion this isn't something you can just mindlessly spam (or maybe you can?), because she's fucked if she gets hit out of it. Of course she also has other great tools like 4p+k and her speed, but I feel like I'm missing something or I am just using her wrong. I'd really appreciate some input (sorry, I know this has been discussed countless times already, but I still don't understand it).

I think it would also help to keep the characters, whose match-ups aren't done yet, out of the list to prevent confusion.

 

[Brute]

I finally had time to go through most of the thread and honestly, I still don't quite get what puts Christie at the top - especially over characters like Jann Lee or Gen Fu. I play her myself and I've played quite a few good Christe players and I absolutely agree that some characters like Eliot and Kokoro have horrible match-ups against her and that she's one of the better characters in the game, but she still has some heavy flaws and lacks options for guaranteed damage unlike Sarah for example. Her throws and holds are absolutely terrible and I think - except for her evasiveness - everything she does, Kasumi does better. Her placement seems to stem from her Jaheiko sidestep mostly, but in my opinion this isn't something you can just mindlessly spam (or maybe you can?), because she's fucked if she gets hit out of it. Of course she also has other great tools like 4p+k and her speed, but I feel like I'm missing something or I am just using her wrong. I'd really appreciate some input (sorry, I know this has been discussed countless times already, but I still don't understand it).

I think it would also help to keep the characters, whose match-ups aren't done yet, out of the list to prevent confusion.

She has speed that's combined with crushes to almost always give her the offensive edge against any opponent, but still doesn't suffer quite as much as Pai in the damage department. She has great string mix-ups in the game (JKO, lows, etc.), and due to her speed she can simply punch out of things others can't. As far as weak holds and throws go, 4T doesn't give a whole ton of frame advantage, but keep in mind that Chrisite is way faster than almost anyone and your opponent is BT, meaning you don't need the excessive frame advantage others do. Her 2H+KT throw can be done from strike strings to trip-up a guarding opponent (as if her mix-ups weren't good enough already), and gives her frame advantage (FA+Christie=madness).

She's not Sarah because no one is as stupid as Sarah, but she definitely deserves a spot over the majority of the roster.

 

[Doa_Eater]

Omegan's opinion on Tina is just the generic opinion on Tina... How I'd love for someone to step up and play her seriously in a tournament.

Nothing about Tina not being exposed, hardest neutral game of the whole roster. The player needs to be exceptionally good to get past Christies,Sarahs,Jann-Lees and ninja gimmicks. The doa tournament scene community as a whole has about borderline 5 to 10 amazing players that could go top 4 in a major US tournament.

And even with this statement I'm pretty much fantasy cheery picking. For anything else there's 23 other characters.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

I finally had time to go through most of the thread and honestly, I still don't quite get what puts Christie at the top - especially over characters like Jann Lee or Gen Fu. I play her myself and I've played quite a few good Christe players and I absolutely agree that some characters like Eliot and Kokoro have horrible match-ups against her and that she's one of the better characters in the game, but she still has some heavy flaws and lacks options for guaranteed damage unlike Sarah for example. Her throws and holds are absolutely terrible and I think - except for her evasiveness - everything she does, Kasumi does better. Her placement seems to stem from her Jaheiko sidestep mostly, but in my opinion this isn't something you can just mindlessly spam (or maybe you can?), because she's fucked if she gets hit out of it. Of course she also has other great tools like 4p+k and her speed, but I feel like I'm missing something or I am just using her wrong. I'd really appreciate some input (sorry, I know this has been discussed countless times already, but I still don't understand it).

I think it would also help to keep the characters, whose match-ups aren't done yet, out of the list to prevent confusion.

Her in string JAK cancels can't be reacted to so you either let her do it and deal with her mix ups from it, a low that stuns on NH, a mid punch that launches on CH, another mid that guard crushes ect or you attempt to interrupt her and risk getting put in stun.

Characters that don't have mid or low tracking moves are fucked when fighting her, trying to time a non tracking move to catch her when she is starting up an attack from JAK is very hard and she can simply side step again if she wants. You sure as hell don't want to try and low throw her out of JAK.

Her damage is pretty solid, not stupidly high but still high for the type of character she is. Her wall throw (66F+P) is really good seeing as it stops wake up kicks, I can end the match as soon as I pin people into the wall with this.

214P is super evasive whilst not being able to guarantee a whole lot.

Overall her JAK is god like and seeing as she can do it from so many string means blocking opponents have to take major risks or get stuck blocking and eventually she will open you up. Her ability to delay strings makes it even harder to deal with this aspect of her game play.

Don't trust the tier list though. She is good but she isn't the best, not even close. When a tier list says that Sarah is bottom of top tier there is something amiss.

 

[crapoZK]

Alright, everybody's saying what their mains have and don't have. So I'm gonna follow the crowd.
OK Zack is thought to be low tier because he is not used by enough people and doesn't have guaranteed damage. But in fact he's probably mid tier. This is because he has:

1. Inescapable stuns, this increases his stun game to a complete other level.
2. AMAZING Throws that position you everywhere on the stage and on HC, they do a ton of damage.
3. His holds do quite some damage on Counter or higher. They also position you in different parts of the stage.
4. Best mix-ups in the game INCLUDING loads of crush attacks, long ranged attacks, poking and evasive stances.
5. His stances are really something to talk about. His Duck stance puts him in a ducking position that cannot be thrown out of if you are in a disadvantage, including guard disadvantage. The attacks after it are quick and cannot be slow escaped out of, he has two launchers, and a sidestep that has two very useful attacks from it. It evades ALL non-tracking attacks and is better than the initial sidestep. He also has 2 THROWS from these stances which puts Zack at an advantage after it. Especially the Combo Throw. That puts Zack at +15 if successful, guaranteeing afterwards for a possible combo. His Sway stance evades short/mid ranged attacks at mid range and he can do ANY of his strings from it. He also has 2 throws from this. He has another move, but is practically useless. Let's just say, its a flashy move. He has a Blanka Ball from this (A move that I created) and it works very well.
6. His machinegun kicks do the trick for making your opponent feel nervous and go for a hold. It's amazing for baiting HCTs. When in stun, 2 of those gatling kicks are guaranteed once the first kick has connected, which usually makes people hold expecting a third one. Problem is, you SHOULD NOT use them when the opponent is not stunned because they are -12 on hit and block. That's terrible.
7. The delay frames on his attacks are so long so you can bait counters.

Now let's get onto his disadvantages:

1. On block, his attacks have so many disadvantage frames.
2. When not used properly, he is sometimes too predictable which costs him the match, especially when they do the full string of Low/Mid kicks.
3. Most of his good attacks are mids, and you know how people like to spam mid holds when they're being pressured. Heck, I even do it.
4. He doesn't have much guaranteed damage. Obviously he has some, but most of them have slow start up frames so it is suggested not to use them.
5. His combo throw window is too large, which gives the opponent too many chances to get out of the throw but at the same time gives you too many chances to do what you need.
6. He has no keep-away game. This means, when he's not "All up in yo' business gurl", he's not very good.

To be completely honest, I would place Zack in B-C tier. Like what EMPEROR_COW said, "It's not that he's weak, it's that he was made differently." Best thing I've heard about Zack in a long time.

 

[MajesticBlue]

I think what we'll need to start actually doing when DOA5U releases, is actually start talking more with one another so that tech and other things can be found and discussed (discuss things more civil-like and not trash each other because we may disagree about something) within' our respective character forums.

This whole "hide shit and keep it a secret" mannerisms people have doesn't help and that is partially why our game doesn't have a completed tier list yet. Only a few of us members here actually openly share information with other people on the forums and that is how some of us actually see a lot of things other people fail to see.

The sooner we can cooperate more together and discuss our characters strengths and weaknesses, along with massive play and tournament experience. The sooner we can start establishing our tier list and things can change from there over time through DOA5U's life.

There is so much truth in this. At least from my perspective it sure as heck looks that way. If people have info they need to post it so the game can grow. It makes me sad that you can't just go to a character board and brush up on a character or even give yourself a good start. It isn't about hand feeding people either. Just laying down a solid foundation so everybody can grow. When everybody is learning and trying stuff then even more stuff will be found.

The whole nerf this and nerf that aspect is pretty sad but does it matter? If nobody is playing your game and people can't even learn it or pick it up then who cares if some of the good tools made it past the nerf phase. Team Ninja does need a logic boost though. Thats for sure. Still, secret keeping is not the way to keep a community strong.

She has speed that's combined with crushes to almost always give her the offensive edge against any opponent, but still doesn't suffer quite as much as Pai in the damage department. She has great string mix-ups in the game (JKO, lows, etc.), and due to her speed she can simply punch out of things others can't. As far as weak holds and throws go, 4T doesn't give a whole ton of frame advantage, but keep in mind that Chrisite is way faster than almost anyone and your opponent is BT, meaning you don't need the excessive frame advantage others do. Her 2H+KT throw can be done from strike strings to trip-up a guarding opponent (as if her mix-ups weren't good enough already), and gives her frame advantage (FA+Christie=madness).

She's not Sarah because no one is as stupid as Sarah, but she definitely deserves a spot over the majority of the roster.

Her speed really doesn't change the situation of 4T at all. It is what it is. Just a chance to get them to hesitate so you can go for another mix up. Either they are gonna turn around and block or mash really.

Also he her string version of her throw are not really functional at all imo. 2H+K P is a low low string and the throw is a crouching mid throw. So there really isn't much of a guessing game here. Also If you can react to the first hit and they delay the P follow up I would think Ryu can crush most of her options anyway with 9K. Then again like crushing works in Doa 5 hahah. Also study up on what she can hit you with if she does get it off. Her options are very limited becasue of the range. If you know all the options she has that can connect then you are better off.

Another thing to keep in mind and imo what makes her what she is, you can't SE the majority of her stuns. If she wants to hit you with some launch heights she has to use threshold launchers. So keep your eyes open for them. I know you didn't ask for any advice or anything but oh well. I felt like posting it.

Her in string JAK cancels can't be reacted to so you either let her do it and deal with her mix ups from it, a low that stuns on NH, a mid punch that launches on CH, another mid that guard crushes ect or you attempt to interrupt her and risk getting put in stun.

Characters that don't have mid or low tracking moves are fucked when fighting her, trying to time a non tracking move to catch her when she is starting up an attack from JAK is very hard and she can simply side step again if she wants. You sure as hell don't want to try and low throw her out of JAK.

Her damage is pretty solid, not stupidly high but still high for the type of character she is. Her wall throw (66F+P) is really good seeing as it stops wake up kicks, I can end the match as soon as I pin people into the wall with this.

214P is super evasive whilst not being able to guarantee a whole lot.

Overall her JAK is god like and seeing as she can do it from so many string means blocking opponents have to take major risks or get stuck blocking and eventually she will open you up. Her ability to delay strings makes it even harder to deal with this aspect of her game play.

Don't trust the tier list though. She is good but she isn't the best, not even close. When a tier list says that Sarah is bottom of top tier there is something amiss.

Her Jak transitions are very hard to react to I agree. Doesn't mean they can't be read though. I know that it comes down to making good reads or in some peoples minds guessing. Also the the low option isn't all that great by itself. A low hold will beat out the low and high option. If you start to go with the mid you can hold and block any follow ups since it recovers so slow. I don't remember if she can get her limbo stun off of the string version...huh

I still feel there is enough random tracking in the game that it makes Jak not as amazing as people claim. Then again I am basing this with my experience using it . Its weird because based on some of my testing with it her normal SS will evade in some instances where Jak won't. Then again you hear about Jak SSing tracking moves. I wonder if that is a hit box issue or issues with certain tracking moves. So either the stance is a little glitchy or some tracking moves need more defined hit boxes or tracking buffs.I for one would like to see less tracking and give characters unique tracking options like in Tekken. As long as they don't add the tracks left or only tracks right aspect. Some characters do nee a tracking overhaul.

66T is godly for sure. I thin he damage is the way it is because of the reading involved and she has no scary throws other then her wall throw. Something has to be scary.

Agreed about your other points. Maybe I need to be more creative with Jak stance or something because I know I can't make it feel as powerful as a tool as everybody else says it is. I have had far better luck using it as a spacing tool then as a evasion tool. So many non tracking moves clip me out of it. Hell even Bayman's 3K haha. So I could need to expand upon it further perhaps.

 

[Brute]

Also If you can react to the first hit and they delay the P follow up I would think Ryu can crush most of her options anyway with 9K. Then again like crushing works in Doa 5 hahah.

Ryu's 9K crush properties are about as reliable as a slot machine. It may work every 1 in 1000 times.