MajesticBlue
Active Member
I know man. I know. Truth.
The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread
- Thread starter Matt Ponton
- Start date
about combo throw window, its irrelevant really, because if you get the " just frame" timing of the throw (regardless of the window length) the thrower will always win. its just a matter of practicing that timing.
as for keep away ..
I agree he does struggle a bit. But, I personally find his 4K quite useful in that aspect especially for whiff punishes.. plus its safe as hell ..and gives you ducking.. also rewards you with a sitdown on CH on crouchers. after messing around with him, I found that he can be a bit annoying to Christie, especially with 6H+K and 2H+K as they stuff her jakeiho... (yes they are unsafe and slow.. but theres still use for them in keeping her at bay)
Again, I'm not saying hes amazing, but yes I do believe he is stronger than what people take him for. He's just not popular and not many people know how to deal with his pressure... (and its pretty annoying pressure since SE is useless against him.. )
BTW, I saw your sets at the last ultimate clash...
Good stuff, maybe we can play when I come to London next visit.
GodlyHades
Active Member
for the win
I'd love to play some sets with you man. Sorry I haven't been on here in the last couple days because i am currently in France. But yeah. I totally agree with you on the Zack stuff.about combo throw window, its irrelevant really, because if you get the " just frame" timing of the throw (regardless of the window length) the thrower will always win. its just a matter of practicing that timing.
as for keep away ..
I agree he does struggle a bit. But, I personally find his 4K quite useful in that aspect especially for whiff punishes.. plus its safe as hell ..and gives you ducking.. also rewards you with a sitdown on CH on crouchers. after messing around with him, I found that he can be a bit annoying to Christie, especially with 6H+K and 2H+K as they stuff her jakeiho... (yes they are unsafe and slow.. but theres still use for them in keeping her at bay)
Again, I'm not saying hes amazing, but yes I do believe he is stronger than what people take him for. He's just not popular and not many people know how to deal with his pressure... (and its pretty annoying pressure since SE is useless against him.. )
BTW, I saw your sets at the last ultimate clash...
Good stuff, maybe we can play when I come to London next visit.
Black Dragon
Active Member
Thoughts on Hayabusa?
I would contribute my thoughts but:
1) DOA5U will be released soon and it'd be better just to wait
2) Nobody listens to me anyway until they finally realize I'm right months later, but forget I already told them so
3) The match-ups already listed for Ryu in this tier list are wacky
Black Dragon
Active Member
We're still playing DOA5, no?
I'd like your (and others') opinions of him.
I'd like your (and others') opinions of him.
In a nutshell: mid tier unless you have a ceiling.
He has good guaranteed damage, but due to broken crush properties, telegraphed animations, lack of string mix-ups and relative sluggishness, these are hard to set-up, and require a great deal of reading and effort to utilize correctly. Despite having a lot of gimmicky moves, some hard-hitting strikes and pseudo-grappler properties you would think he's a jack-of all trades, but he really isn't and all of his non-gimmick-related strengths are replicated better by others. His expert holds in HiC are his saving grace, but free canceling, string mix-ups and HiC throw baits are fairly good at combating this and they, again, require precise reads.
UpSideDownGRUNT
Well-Known Member
Pretty much what Brute said. unless you have good/decent reading ability or are in the right position Hayabusa isn't that good.
MajesticBlue
Active Member
The main thing Ryu has going for him other then his holds imo are his stuns. He has an over the top stun game. If he gets you with his better stun moves you have to just hold blindly or make a read. He lacks lows. Plus his stun launch damage is pretty dang good.
UprisingJC
Well-Known Member
Is Hayabusa really that bad?
1. A grappler with an i10 jab
2. High damage output from his expert punch holds(mainly the mid-punch one)
3. High damage throws
4. High damage output from his strikes
5. Good anti-SS ability(4P, 1P) - But I'm not sure if his 4P has the similar hitbox issues as Kasumi's P+K does.
6. Long-stun strikes(Jab, 3P, 6K and even his 6P) that makes his opponent have to decide whether to attempt a hold or not.
As for his crush ability, he has 33p, 1p, 3p+k...etc
33p and 1p are used a lot, aren't they?
1. A grappler with an i10 jab
2. High damage output from his expert punch holds(mainly the mid-punch one)
3. High damage throws
4. High damage output from his strikes
5. Good anti-SS ability(4P, 1P) - But I'm not sure if his 4P has the similar hitbox issues as Kasumi's P+K does.
6. Long-stun strikes(Jab, 3P, 6K and even his 6P) that makes his opponent have to decide whether to attempt a hold or not.
As for his crush ability, he has 33p, 1p, 3p+k...etc
33p and 1p are used a lot, aren't they?
Giving him the title "grappler" is not really fair. His throws and OHs are not on the same level as real grapplers. He's more of a "pseudo-grappler." And his speed is still slow, especially in regards to mids. His fastest mid, for example, is 13 frames (Lisa has two 12 frame mids).
I already mentioned that. Requires precise reads and even then certain characters with other tools have damaging holds and parries as well (Lei fang).
Not really. The Izuna Otoshi is his best throw, and nets the most damage by canceling into a launch. Launcher throws can be done by many others, including 2 of the other ninjas.
And particularly for a "grappler" this is a rather unimpressive move. He has nothing that nets the damage of Bass' throws, Tina's 364T or Lisa's Shooting Star Press.
Don't forget about his neglect of OHs for a "grappler."
mhm
Yeah but you just really don't have to sidestep him. His telegraphed moves can be dealt with easily in other ways.
In general he's reliant on those mid Ps and has no sit-down stuns which guarantee a CB (4H+K is +18 and 214P is too slow to use from stun in these situations).
1P is a great move (though 1Ps are usually great moves, and Ryu's is not as good as Hayate's or other similar types).
I could go into 33P but I'm not in the mood. Suffice to say, I find it's overrated.
No, he's just really not that great, either. Once you learn his limitations he becomes rather unimposing.
Perhaps because he's my main, but of all characters in the roster I find Ryu the least intimidating, no doubt about it. Unless there's a ceiling or a bounty of techables (or both).
MajesticBlue
Active Member
3P 6K 6P 6P+K Brute. All these stuns are so deep SE doesn't matter at all. Psuedo grappler is a bit of a stretch too. Its more like counter hit hunting stun monster.
UprisingJC
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your reply. My opinions are as follows:
If so, Bayman should also be called a pseudo-grappler IMO because he doesn't have 1-frame decrease in his throws. His neutral throw still executes in 5 frames as most of the other characters' do, and his 4T takes 7 frames to happen.
I called Ryu a grappler because of the following reason.
He has 1-frame decrease for his throws except for his izuna drop and 2T.
Take 6T for example.
It causes 50 damage, which is a grappler-type level.
Let's take a look at other grappler's 6T or 6-frame or 7-frame throw:
Tina: 6f, 48 dmg
Bass: 6f, 50 dmg and +10
Lisa: 6f, 50 dmg
Bayman: 7f, 45 dmg
As for the rest of the characters, most of their 6Ts cause 42 damage, except some characters like Hitomi and Genfu.
Some strikers like Hitomi and Ayane also have slow mids. Their fastest mid is also 13 frames(Both their 6K and 6P).
Agree.
Kasumi's 66KK may be one of the setups that guarantee a CB but the second hit is VERY SLOW.
Both 4H+K and 214P have a guaranteed launcher.
4H+K -> 6KK
214P -> 33P4
I've seen a lot of Ryu players(including both beginners and skilled players) abuse the 2 moves and even his Ongyion stance all day.
33P4 ducks under high attacks and certain mids that have hitbox issues(ex: Kasumi's 66K) and launches his opponent on counter hit. Even it gets blocked, he's still +1.
Well, my main is Kasumi but I also play Bayman and Helena competitively in DOA5.
I may replace Bayman with Leon in DOA5U.
If so, Bayman should also be called a pseudo-grappler IMO because he doesn't have 1-frame decrease in his throws. His neutral throw still executes in 5 frames as most of the other characters' do, and his 4T takes 7 frames to happen.
I called Ryu a grappler because of the following reason.
He has 1-frame decrease for his throws except for his izuna drop and 2T.
Take 6T for example.
It causes 50 damage, which is a grappler-type level.
Let's take a look at other grappler's 6T or 6-frame or 7-frame throw:
Tina: 6f, 48 dmg
Bass: 6f, 50 dmg and +10
Lisa: 6f, 50 dmg
Bayman: 7f, 45 dmg
As for the rest of the characters, most of their 6Ts cause 42 damage, except some characters like Hitomi and Genfu.
Some strikers like Hitomi and Ayane also have slow mids. Their fastest mid is also 13 frames(Both their 6K and 6P).
Agree.
Same as my first part of this reply.
Telegraphed moves?
Not so many characters have setups that guarantee a CB.
Kasumi's 66KK may be one of the setups that guarantee a CB but the second hit is VERY SLOW.
Both 4H+K and 214P have a guaranteed launcher.
4H+K -> 6KK
214P -> 33P4
I've seen a lot of Ryu players(including both beginners and skilled players) abuse the 2 moves and even his Ongyion stance all day.
33P4 ducks under high attacks and certain mids that have hitbox issues(ex: Kasumi's 66K) and launches his opponent on counter hit. Even it gets blocked, he's still +1.
Well, my main is Kasumi but I also play Bayman and Helena competitively in DOA5.
I may replace Bayman with Leon in DOA5U.
That +1 from 33p4 isn't really dangerous though, a 2p will beat everything he can do from ninpo except 6p+k.
UprisingJC
Well-Known Member
Yes, his 6p+k is the only thing that can deal with 2p, but I think Ryu players may not use it that much I guess?
It's Ryu's second fastest attack from his Ongyion stance but it still executes in 15 frames.
Using that 6p+k is a gambling anyway.
iirc somewhere between -11 and -13 I think, can't remember exactly
EDIT: nevermind its actually only -8