Black Dragon
Active Member
Oooooh, tools to beat Christie with Busa!
Gimme more!
Gimme more!
The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread
- Thread starter Matt Ponton
- Start date
Zeo
Well-Known Member
Ok.. can't argue there. But unlike Akira, you have strings where if they SS the first or 2nd hit, they'll be hit by the 2nd or 3rd. Even Christie applies there. You also have throws built into some of your strings to catch steppers as well.
Akira on the other hand is largely a single strike character, sidestep him once and that's game. Most he can hope to do is mash PP and hope the 2nd punch catches you.
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Saber
Well-Known Member
Still not a good way to deal with the Christie matchup. Kokoro's in-string throws are standing throws. Christie's JAK fucking crushes ALL high attacks, and has follow-ups, which makes throws an unreliable tracking option since it's that risky.
And it's that one fucking move that gives Christie a huge advantage. Kokoro can deal with everything else, but not JAK.
Zeo
Well-Known Member
I was referring to her throws for normal sidestepping opponents. As far as JAK goes? JAK screws everyone over. I can't help you there.
UprisingJC
Well-Known Member
Zeo
Well-Known Member
Fairly unreliable. It can catch her sometimes but it's a 50/50 most of the time as she might beat you out and there's the chance she'll cancel it twice, evading the 2nd punch.
It's still probably his best way of dealing with it though. 214P+K and 46P+K tracking mids are both 18 and 19 frames respectively, so he's got no real answer for it.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
If you don't have any initial attack tracking moves that are not high's dealing with Christie's JAK in neutral is a nightmare. But you don't need a tracking moves to deal with her in-string JAK's.
214P+K doesn't need to be extremely fast to beat side steps, most tracking moves aren't that fast. Plus not only does it cover a lot of range it also leaves them back turned on CH, that's pretty nice.
Why are i18 and i19 moves bad for dealing with JAK? Helena's fastest out of neutral is i17 (1P) and it seems to stuff it just fine.
214P+K doesn't need to be extremely fast to beat side steps, most tracking moves aren't that fast. Plus not only does it cover a lot of range it also leaves them back turned on CH, that's pretty nice.
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Zeo
Well-Known Member
It handles sidesteps well enough but the problem is Christie would never JAK in neutral against Akira when she can basically beat out anything he does. But when he blocks and she cancels into the stance from a string his tracking moves aren't fast enough to beat out her followups. The one tracking move that could is a high, which is made null and void by JAK. Leaving him with throwing out PP and hoping for the best.
Other characters have an answer, he doesn't.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
You don't need a tracking move to beat out her in-string JAK cancels. If she does say 6PP > JAK > 2K or P I use Helena's 33P which doesn't track and it works just fine. The idea is to catch her at the end of the side step and the start up of the attack, not hit her out of the sidestep.
It takes Christie more than i18 to JAK and then attack so if you predict a JAK cancel Akira's 214P should work fine. No one can trash her cancels on reaction so you gotta take a risk. An i18 attack will get it done just as good as anything else can.
Zeo
Well-Known Member
I've tried. It can beat out her double sway, low sweep, grab and guard break but it can't beat her mid punch launch.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Zeo
Well-Known Member
Maybe it was just online messing up the timing. I tried hitting Mr. Kwiggle out of that very string cancel at least 5 times and got beat out very single time. And that's when I wasn't just getting beat out by him doing the 3rd punch instead of the followup.
The mid punch is so slow that you have to throw it out as soon as you see the 2nd 6P and hope he cancels into the stance and not just finish the string. Guessing... ugh.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Welcome to the pain in the ass that is Christie. I don't believe anyone can see her cancel into JAK and still beat her out with an attack. Humans just can't react that fast. Best bet on block when it comes to her 6P string is to counter the second mid punch. It's hard to do but it is the only way to avoid her mix ups I'm afraid.
I'd stick to doing a non tracking mid honestly. Very few Christie's JAK twice, they either JAK or continue the string, that's their mix up.
Zeo
Well-Known Member
So basically you're just screwed fighting Christie. I'm standing by her being Akira's worst matchup. 6.5/3.5.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Lacking decent low stuns and having pathetic throw damage, JAK is her mix up game. Same with Helena's lows that stun on NH, Busa's guard crushes, Akira's +1 jab/2P and +17 high punch, Sarah being a whore ect...
Every character has their tools, as long as you have a tracking mid/low that you can throw out she is manageable. The character I feel bad for when dealing with Christie is Kokoro. I'd say Lei Fang too but she's a bitch.
I'm really not sure how you got 6-4 against Helena. Helena's crushing ability works wondrously against Ryu as with any mid-to-slow speed character in the game, the "blender" is immensely hard to get out of. You have Izuna holds but just like any other hold, tossing out any except the low hold will result in her BKO launcher throw and back into a reset.
Hitomi relies on a surprising amount of highs that Ryu can crush, and due to her string reliance her delayable strings can be punished with Izuna holds (such as on her mid P chargeable guard break). Aside from her regular delays/free-cancel into reset throw and somersault spams, she's not very threatening to Ryu. I say 6-4 in Ryu's favor.
Jann Lee has skills beyond Dragon Gunner and gets great damage off of his CB set-ups, which can be deadly with H+K as a sit-down initiator.
But, Lei-fang is much safer and has better string-mix-ups and free-cancel potential, making Ryu's expert holds trickier to carry off (not to mention some of her unholdable shoulder attacks). Her safety is also combined with constant crushes, and is thus more difficult to safely throw punish. Ryu is also frequently reliant on mid punches for his big damage and deep stuns, and is prone to Lei Fang's numerous parries and sabakis.
I would go with 5-5. Lisa's mix-up potential up-close is better and her frequent crushes, kicks and guard-breaks can be difficult to read and hold. That said, at mid-range Ryu has better distance-closing options. Lisa also has the Shooting Star Press in addition to the Deja Vu. Neither are forced to play the stun game for damage (though they do benefit from it largely), and Lisa typically has slower strings, but their start-up frames are comparable or in some cases with Lisa having a slight edge. Lisa also takes the OH category, no question.
Anyway, they're actually pretty close.
Mila's lack of extensive strings and reliance on pokes can make her very difficult to expert hold. That said, aside from her tackle and arguably somersault, she doesn't excel with crushes, which allows Ryu to apply good pressure. This isn't necessarily a Ryu thing, but her advantage-after-break loop potential from the tackle is still absurd and difficult to deal with here. Ryu's "big" throw damage is not easy to land on Mila (esp. on HiC) because she is rarely not attacking (or tackling) against him, as his speed shouldn't be too intimidating up close (where most of the battle will take place). I'm inclined to say 5-5 as well, but in my opinion it's because both have big threats for each other, they simply balance with the other's.
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