3-Point Hold v. 4-Point Hold

[Allan Paris]

Technically DOA5 has a 5-point hold system. With mids being split up into weak mid, strong mid punch, strong mid kick. Which works out better for both the 3-point and 4-point camps. While new players can get lucky with a mid counter, better players are going to find combos and set ups for the more damaging advanced mid counters.

Really, like...... . . Really?

 

[DR2K]

Really, like...... . . Really?

Wow such an insightful comment. I'm going to think about your comment for a bit so I can come up with thought out response.




Yeah really.

 

[DrDogg]

Anytime a game sells over a million copies it's very impressive. DOA3 is somewhere between the 23rd and the 26th in terms of the highest selling console fighting games of all time. That having been said, I don't think it's being a launch title held it back as much as you suggest.

I don't recall saying how much it hampered sales, only that it was the primary reason... which it was.

Even with the relatively low sales figures that the X-Box had on launch, Halo managed to sell 5 million copies despite being a launch title. It was simply a great game.

You're comparing DOA3 to Halo? While we're at it, why don't we compare DOA5 and Modern Warfare sales.

The Sega Saturn had less than half (closer to a 3rd) of the user base of the X-Box and Virtua Fighter 2 still managed to sell over 2 million copies.

Isn't VF2 the best selling VF next to VF4 Evo? Also, what else were people going to buy on the Saturn? Not to mention the popular VF2 arcade release beforehand.

DOA3 outsold the X-Box version of Soul Calibur II despite their having been a larger user base on the X-Box when SCII was released. You can attribute this to the fact that SCII was available on 2 other systems, despite the X-Box version being the best of the three.

Xbox was the best version? Maybe from a technical standpoint, but not from any other standpoint. The GCN version sold the best and the PS2 version was the competitive standard. All the Xbox version had going for it was Spawn, which paled in comparison to Link.

Tekken Tag Tournament was also a launch title and it sold over 2 million copies. You can attribute that to the PS2 having a higher player base, and the fact that the game had an arcade counterpart. However when you look at DOA2HC, it was also a launch title with an arcade counterpart, and it enjoyed nowhere near that level of success.

Tekken is the best selling fighting game franchise in the world. There's no reason to expect any DOA to outsell and equivalent Tekken title.

 

[Allan Paris]

Wow such an insightful comment. I'm going to think about your comment for a bit so I can come up with thought out response.

I was saying the same thing about yours when I seen it. But this came out instead

Really, like...... . . Really?

Just don't go telling anyone else about your new found theory.

 

[DR2K]

I don't why you're quoting me. Could you maybe make a relevant coherent sentence that has to do with the subject matter or should I channel Jean Grey and find out what your sentence meant?

 

[Berzerk!]

It's a 50/50 unless you're purposely playing wrong. I've already posted how and why in heavy detail about six times now this week and I'm not going to do it again. People like you and Emperor are refusing to acknowledge it. Just what the hell am I supposed to do about that? I'm not going to have a debate where I show someone the world is round, give them photographic evidence of it, and even offer to take them up in a shuttle ride to show them but they continue to scoff at me and claim the world is flat.

Comes a time when people have to take responsibility for their own education about this game.

Your previous posts arguing this appear reference and rely on examples from DOA4.

If you'd like to make clear your personal experience with DOA5 and reflections on that it will better clarify your point. At this stage it's hard to tell what comments are from the armchair and which reflect actual testing in the new game.

 

[Allan Paris]

Could you maybe make a relevant coherent sentence that has to do with the subject matter or should I channel Jean Grey and find out what your sentence meant?

Ok, I can do that for you since you can't understand what I was doing by quoting you. Please do not tell anyone else about your new found theory on 5 point holding (for the sake of not sounding dumb). I feel that you are fishing with your complete statement on it and your reasons behind it are not solid; furthermore the information is false. This is technically and really a 3 Point hold system we have now. This does not work out for the "4 Point camps" because if it did people would not make posts saying they want 4 points back, or something of that nature.

Now, if that wasn't helpful enough for you, please do channel, Jean Grey.

 

[Jefffcore]

Your previous posts arguing this appear reference and rely on examples from DOA4.

If you'd like to make clear your personal experience with DOA5 and reflections on that it will better clarify your point. At this stage it's hard to tell what comments are from the armchair and which reflect actual testing in the new game.

He and I were just talking about it in that... other thread. I have no idea which it is, could be this one... I don't pay attention.

They either hold or SE in stun. It doesn't matter what level it's at because there's standing and crouching; you attack mid or throw. That's a 50/50. UNLESS they SE super fast... then it's a bit awkward.

Also in the beta you get a decent launch after the first stun so you can launch with a mid every time or throw. Mid attacks hit every level so only a mid hold will stop it, which can be stopped by a throw. Doesn't really matter what game.

 

[DR2K]

Ok, I can do that for you since you can't understand what I was doing by quoting you. Please do not tell anyone else about your new found theory on 5 point holding (for the sake of not sounding dumb). I feel that you are fishing with your complete statement on it and your reasons behind it are not solid; furthermore the information is false. This is technically and really a 3 Point hold system we have now. This does not work out for the "4 Point camps" because if it did people would not make posts saying they want 4 points back, or something of that nature.

Now, if that wasn't helpful enough for you, please do channel, Jean Grey.

I guess once we get past the number 4 things start sounding really dumb.

Characters at minimum have 5 different counter options(some with more) now, see where the 5 comes from? 4 points was added to tone down holds in games where counters did bigger damage. (DOA2U and DOA4) They didn't do a lot of damage and weren't as effective in 3, so 3 points worked for that game. In DOA5 holds even do less damage and is split into 3 different types of hold. Thereby making the mid counter even more difficult to maximize damage.

The 4 point camp doesn't really understand what it wants if it's asking for the return. Because mid holds already got nerfed and there's absolutely no justification in the current system to split what has already been split even moreso.

 

[Berzerk!]

I guess once we get past the number 4 things start sounding really dumb.

Characters at minimum have 5 different counter options(some with more) now, see where the 5 comes from? 4 points was added to tone down holds in games where counters did bigger damage. (DOA2U and DOA4) They didn't do a lot of damage and weren't as effective in 3, so 3 points worked for that game. In DOA5 holds even do less damage and is split into 3 different types of hold. Thereby making the mid counter even more difficult to maximize damage.

The 4 point camp doesn't really understand what it wants if it's asking for the return. Because mid holds already got nerfed and there's absolutely no justification in the current system to split what has already been split even moreso.

Doesn't understand what it wants? Have you read any of my posts? I outlined it very clearly.

 

[Jefffcore]

4 point wasn't introduced because of damage, it was introduced because it worked better for the system. DOA is a mid heavy game.

The ability to hold needs to be hindered, 'nuff said. 3 point is too easy even with the ability to hold in stun reduced.

 

[Allan Paris]

Characters at minimum have 5 different counter options(some with more) now, see where the 5 comes from? 4 points was added to tone down holds in games where counters did bigger damage. (DOA2U and DOA4) They didn't do a lot of damage and weren't as effective in 3, so 3 points worked for that game. In DOA5 holds even do less damage and is split into 3 different types of hold. Thereby making the mid counter even more difficult to maximize damage.

The 4 point camp doesn't really understand what it wants if it's asking for the return. Because mid holds already got nerfed and there's absolutely no justification in the current system to split what has already been split even moreso.

I understand and know how you are getting 5 but, that does not make it a 5 point system. You being able to predominantly hold with one of these options : , , makes this a 3 point system. Parries and advanced holds do not apply to the system because they only take care of one specific option. Yes, all of the characters will have advanced holds (at least 2) but, you do not have to use them to get what you want, which is damage.

Your theory on 4 points does not sound accurate, either. I am going to have to ask you where did you get that from? Not what you think but, an actual official source that has stated that? DOA4 distributed the most damage from holds in the entire series. So I don't get how a 4 Point system was put into play, "to tone down holds in games where counters did bigger damage." In DOA2U the holds to me seemed to be fine I haven't heard any complaints on them, that game was ok overall.

In DOA5 holds do even less damage and is split into 3 different types of hold.

LOL, you just proved me right, nice debating skills. Holds are still outputting too much damage. It is a big improvement from DOA4, though.

The 4 point camp doesn't really understand what it wants if it's asking for the return. Because mid holds already got nerfed and there's absolutely no justification in the current system to split what has already been split even moreso.

Well I am a part of the "4 point camp" and I am tellin' you, I need them bitches split, pronto! I know exactly and understand what I want. Here's one of my reasons: The mid section gets tagged too frequently from them to be together. Plus with how the game plays now, no way around the triangle system, it's crazy for them to be together unless they make holds weaker than what they already are. The reason why 3 points worked so well in 3 was because you could work around the triangle system and the damage was fair.

 

[Jefffcore]

Speak the truth, Allan Paris does.

 

[Awesmic]

Things are looking quite confusing and needlessly hostile... but nonetheless redeemable and forgiving depending on if both parties can come to an understanding. Will Onslaught use his psychic abilities to understand WTF Allan Paris is saying? Or will this go on as frequently as the Sonic Cycle, with no end in sight? Stay tuned for the next exciting, theory-fighting episode of EFF ESS DEEEEEE!

 

[DR2K]

-Yeah, but you see this isn't a 3-point system nor is it a 4-point system. You have 5 options now. The advanced counters have the same viabailty as the standard holds.

-Counters do considerably less damage in this iteration.I don't know which beta any of you are playing.

-Throws and attacks punish holds harder than a hold could do in this beta.

"4 point wasn't introduced because of damage, it was introduced because it worked better for the system. DOA is a mid heavy game."

I also mentioned efectivness. DOA isn't a mid heavy game, it just depends on the character. What's a mid hold gonna do against a high launcher?

 

[Jefffcore]

There are 5 points but they don't work the same. There's still a base of 3 and 2 or more advanced that give more damage.

It doesn't matter if they do no damage, the ability to guess out of every stun is still there. (They shouldn't do no damage because throws would kill them)

It is a mid heavy game. Read what Rikuto or I have been saying, it goes for 4 and the 5a demo. If you stun someone the only things you need are mid attacks and throws. Mid attacks hit every level. It is a mid heavy game, everything is mid.

I can break down Hayabusa again as an example if you want. It goes the same for every character. If I asked most about Jann Lee in DOA4 they'd say he uses a lot of highs, but he has better mids. All his best stuns are mid and all but one of is launchers are mid. That's like 4.

Strong DOA is in the mid

 

[DR2K]

There are 5 points but they don't work the same. There's still a base of 3 and 2 or more advanced that give more damage.

It doesn't matter if they do no damage, the ability to guess out of every stun is still there. (They shouldn't do no damage because throws would kill them)

It is a mid heavy game. Read what Rikuto or I have been saying, it goes for 4 and the 5a demo. If you stun someone the only things you need are mid attacks and throws. Mid attacks hit every level. It is a mid heavy game, everything is mid. Single button attacks are high, low attacks are done with down, and everything else is usually mid.

3 + 2 is 5, it'll never = 3.

Getting out of stun does not get fixed by adding another point of hold, they can no longer be used against wall and there are considerably more options that allow guaranteed follow ups. Well compared to the 0 in DOA4 anyways.The damage is freaking laughable at best.

That's not the case at all, and it's not a rule whatsoever.

 

[Jefffcore]

You quoted me too soon! Go back and re do it! lol

There aren't considerably more options in the demo. Just walls, and Hitomi's sidestep kick as far as I know. When you're out in the middle its still the same guessing game.

There's a base of three that work for every situation. If a person is unsure they don't ever have to use advanced holds, so It's a 3 point system.

 

[DR2K]

DOA5 isn't as stun heavy either the need to rely on mids to extend it is silly. There isn't much to extend.

 

[DriftSlave]

I like how this argument is more about the # of points rather then about comparing 3 or 4 point holds in general and how they should balance between them.

with that said...that DOA1 logic is sounding real nice right about now....