Lets be serious here Alpha-152 needs to be banned.

[EMPEROR_COW]

I still think it would make a little more sense to wait and see.

The game isnt even in our hands yet guys, relax.

I expect (as many others do) at least a pre-arcade release patch (arcade expected late december-early next year). Lets test her out, see how the changes are, and if she needs to get patched we make sure it happens.

TN will not release a broken (or atleast not overly broken) game for the arcades. It would severely hurt their financial state.

Lets try her, see her frame data, her damage, her "new" potential, THEN lets decide.

Oh and kitchener, I'm not mad lol. I am as concerned about her as everyone else. But I feel like we should at least get the damn game before making such a decision.

 

[TRI Mike]

You're comparing Tina to Alpha? Really? REALLY? Really? Tina is hella slow and has to work for stun compared to Alpha and even then she doesn't have a "stupid" mix up game. Also FYI Tengu WAS banned in DOA2.

That was exactly my point. I compared Tina to Alpha as a novelty. Punishing holds and doing combos is practically the most basic thing about DOA. Banning a character that does that in a good way is silly, especially when nobody uses her anyway, much less win tournaments in a fucked-up way like the character who are actually broken in other games.

Tengu getting banned in DOA2 was retarded as well.

@Zeo If Alpha was as broken as Erik, Carl and the others are claiming her to be, there'd definitely be discussions about it in that thread, but there aren't. Why¿ Because nobody uses her anyway and she's probably not even as cheap as she seems.

I mean, even if she's God tier (which she definitely isn't), it's not like anyone is winning with her like say, Meta Knight in Brawl. And even if people start using her in tournaments against players like Erik, he'd still destroy them with Leon or whoever the fuck he decides to use because he's still a much better player. There's NO REASON for a ban.

EDIT: Besides, this DOA5U hype has more than proven that the franchise's players move around busty kawaii girls and badass (?) cool-looking guys. Alpha doesn't fall in that category so again, even if she IS ridiculously cheap, chances are there will never be a realistic need to ban her because her presence in tournaments will always be very small. It's at least a year too early to decide this.

 

[Prince Adon]

That was exactly my point. I compared Tina to Alpha as a novelty. Punishing holds and doing combos is practically the most basic thing about DOA. Banning a character that does that in a good way is silly, especially when nobody uses her anyway, much less win tournaments in a fucked-up way like the character who are actually broken in other games.

Tengu getting banned in DOA2 was retarded as well.

I...I fail to see the logic with the Tina and Alpha comparison. Who is taking about basic shit here? You're the only one who is talking about punishing holds and doing combos.

About the Tengu thing all I have to do is say that to 8K. And that is only the beginning.

 

[TRI Mike]

I...I fail to see the logic with the Tina and Alpha comparison. Who is taking about basic shit here? You're the only one who is talking about punishing holds and doing combos.

About the Tengu thing all I have to do is say that to 8K. And that is only the beginning.

*sigh* there was no logic, that was the point man. Forget it.

 

[Zeo]

@Zeo If Alpha was as broken as Erik, Carl and the others are claiming her to be, there'd definitely be discussions about it in that thread, but there aren't. Why¿ Because nobody uses her anyway and she's probably not even as cheap as she seems.

I mean, even if she's God tier (which she definitely isn't), it's not like anyone is winning with her like say, Meta Knight in Brawl. And even if people start using her in tournaments against players like Erik, he'd still destroy them with Leon or whoever the fuck he decides to use because he's still a much better player. There's NO REASON for a ban.

EDIT: Besides, this DOA5U hype has more than proven that the franchise's players move around busty kawaii girls and badass (?) cool-looking guys. Alpha doesn't fall in that category so again, even if she IS ridiculously cheap, chances are there will never be a realistic need to ban her because her presence in tournaments will always be very small. It's at least a year too early to decide this.

That claim is void particularly because of the point Berzerk made previously.

The other reason Alpha is not more prevalent in tournaments is because she's not widely available to all players - unlocking her is a drawn out exercise, followed by bothering to learn her. So the player base for the character would be extremely low, yet we've seen her represented in a number of tournament top 8's and finals.

Obviously since this character is so much of a hassle to unlock players that could potentially use her wouldn't because of the requirement to indulge in offline modes in order to unlock her (I still remember how annoying it was for me.). Not because no one is interested, it will more than likely be a different ball game in 5U when everyone is available from the start. The only players that use her at a fairly high level are XCal and Lopedo who only sub her so no one has actually used her at her full potential. XCal is just a great player period.

On top of that, just because no one wants to use her doesn't mean knowledgable players can't see her strengths and weaknesses. Particularly from a competitive standpoint. Virtually everything said about the character from players that were for her ban was true with the only real counter argument being "it's not that bad" with no real facts to back said argument. Again I in particular would be in favor of waiting until the game comes out and we can really see in depth what Alpha is capable of to see how much it warrants the ban.

Still there is TFC and if a high level player that sees Alpha's potential can just go "Welp, I'll just learn Alpha and take her to TFC" and actually go and win, that's something that should be said about the character and taken into serious consideration.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

This is more of a general say, but it definitely does relate to this topic. I said this some time ago in the tier list thread;

I think what we'll need to start actually doing when DOA5U releases, is actually start talking more with one another so that tech and other things can be found and discussed (discuss things more civil-like and not trash each other because we may disagree about something) within' our respective character forums.

This whole "hide shit and keep it a secret" mannerisms people have doesn't help and that is partially why our game doesn't have a completed tier list yet. Only a few of us members here actually openly share information with other people on the forums and that is how some of us actually see a lot of things other people fail to see.

The sooner we can cooperate more together and discuss our characters strengths and weaknesses, along with massive play and tournament experience. The sooner we can start establishing our tier list and things can change from there over time through DOA5U's life.

I'm totally not saying "everything" needs to be out in the open for the public, but a lot of things do need to be acknowledged a lot more. We have a seriously huge lack of better information for most of this game's characters, that includes Alpha. That is definitely a reason why it is difficult for us to grow more immunity for our character's respective matchups, which in the end, doesn't really help anyone at all.

This is just one of the many steps we must make "together" as a community (especially for us competitive players). But it is a step we do need to make. Doing so further's everyone's chance to improve and strategize appropriately against more things. And as a reward, allows all (or most) of us to grow more strength in tournament play. Higher, more consistent level of play in casuals and competitive play is something all of us should be wanting to have more.

Because to be honest, there are still A LOT AND I MEAN A LOT of players at a really low level playing this game, and that's bad. We are playing to win, of course, but more consistent competition means more hype will generate.

Our game needs that.

But on the topic, because "DOA5" is no longer relevant for us outside of practice for DOA5U, the character ban does not matter. Now, for DOA5U, it would make no sense to initially issue this at the start. We need to wait and see how things go at TFC and other upcoming tournaments to determine whether or not Alpha needs a tournament ban. So, because DOA5U will have the entire roster unlocked from the start, everyone attending TFC (I can't make it out, sorry guys -_-) will have time prior from when DOA5U is released, up to TFC to practice and study the game.

So, just wait it out and see what happens there. If Alpha is still just as fucking stupid, or has gotten even more stupid, then definitely ban that Listerine bitch. Until then, just adapt if you're able to.

 

[Number 13]

Why not instead nerf everyone to Eliot tier to solve this dilemma? If Alpha is getting ban hammer then might as well ban the VF characters too for obvious reasons.

 

[Brute]

That was exactly my point. I compared Tina to Alpha as a novelty. Punishing holds and doing combos is practically the most basic thing about DOA. Banning a character that does that in a good way is silly,

We define "good" differently. If you consider balance "good" Alpha is not "good."
Sure that's the basics of DOA but Alpha does it to such a degree it's ridiculous. Take another extreme hypothetical as an illustration of how this "degree" concept works:
GodChar gets an i7 jab, i10 170dmg throw, tons of OHs, great, tracking string mix-ups and gets average 130 dmg off one of his 5 CBs
GodChar is "punishing holds and doing combos" "good," but feeling that he is a fair character is absurd. It's all about mixing those options to a degree so that you excel in some areas and not in others. Alpha is disproportionately advantaged over the rest of the cast in too many situation, like a mini version of hypothetical GodChar. That is why when you say she is "good" at the "basic thing about DOA," we say she is stupid.

@Zeo If Alpha was as broken as Erik, Carl and the others are claiming her to be, there'd definitely be discussions about it in that thread, but there aren't.

Last I checked those two stayed clear of that thread. Many of the top level players do (most, actually). Weak argument. That thread should not be taken as some sort of reference on character balance at all.

EDIT: Besides, this DOA5U hype has more than proven that the franchise's players move around busty kawaii girls and badass (?) cool-looking guys. Alpha doesn't fall in that category so again, even if she IS ridiculously cheap, chances are there will never be a realistic need to ban her because her presence in tournaments will always be very small. It's at least a year too early to decide this.

So your logic is that she won't be used in tournaments because the pro players are victim to the tendencies of casual players and would rather be a "kawaii girl" or "badass cool-looking guy" than win $8,000?
Yeah, okay. Whatever.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Why not instead nerf everyone to Eliot tier to solve this dilemma? If Alpha is getting ban hammer then might as well ban the VF characters too for obvious reasons.

Can we keep the rest of the comments and post serious on the topic from the now on, please?

This is actually a serious matter.

 

[UncleKitchener]

Oh and kitchener, I'm not mad lol. I am as concerned about her as everyone else. But I feel like we should at least get the damn game before making such a decision.

naaaaa, ban her. No one plays her in UK anyway.

 

[Raansu]

Lets see...

Never ending strings in a game with long string delay+ free canceling so SSing her is a joke since everything she does will just re-track minus like pppppppp string but no one actually does just pppppppp.

An OH that covers half the screen.

An OH that is 10 frames on a 9 frame jabber (making the start of a match a nightmare because the game lets you move around before the round starts.)

An OH that does around 149 damage on HCT (100 on NT) which is roughly 55% of a players health (no character with that kind of speed advantage should ever have a throw that does that kind of damage)

3 CB's, one of which is a guard break and +8 on block and despite popular belief you can get a juggle off the float CB, and to top it off in 5U she's getting a kick launcher out of float so its a moot point anyways. If that CB is still +8 in 5U I'm just gonna laugh. Who thought it was OK to make a guard break that is +8 on block to be a CB as well? There will be very little risk to use 66p in 5U outside of counters. If they slow escape you just got a +8 guard break. So you option is to SE and guard low to avoid the GB and probably risk getting hit by the new float kick launcher or hold it and either eat a throw that does an insane amount of damage or eat one of the other 2 CB mix ups....CB game is already scary, its going to be insane in 5U if thats still a +8 GB mixed in with the new kick launcher from float.

7k is 12i and -5 on block can be spammed over and over and it is unholdable meaning only Tina,Ryu,Bass and Lisa can throw punish it on block with their 4i throws while everyone else has to deal with mid that's fairly quick and when held is just stepped to the side.

2T is 3 frames and does 70dmg on NT and 105 on HCT...Seriously!? Who the fuck gives a 3 frame low throw that kind of damage?

Why does the fastest character in the game have some of the most damaging throws in the game as well as having high damage from attacks? These kind of throws I'd expect to be on a slow grappling character, but on a very fast high damage attack character? For real?

 

[Awesmic]

Really? Awesmic has now convinced you that we're just making ad hominem attacks instead of seriously discussing a character's validity in the tournament scene?

I didn't "convince" him of anything except to steer clear of the thread before it gets worse.

We haven't even talked yet on XBL

 

[SomewhatMental]

I voted Yes. I agree this is a big decision, but for competitive play I am willing to bank on that.

The thing about Alpha you can't tell how good she is just by watching her play. I mean she looks so fucking stupid(literally) you could never guess this character was good. That is pretty much the problem. She is so stupid and scrubby that the shit she do should not be, or work the way it does. At the end of the day you feel stupid rather you win or lose against Alpha. Doesn't feel like any intelligence were involved in that match up whatsoever. That is how stupid she is.

See let's be real most of the DOA community do not understand DOA. That goes for most of the Alpha players(if not all). Of course Alpha players are not going to see what is wrong with Alpha. When you mix in her being your favorite character of choice more bias is added. I don't see any Alpha players going to tournaments as well.

Alpha is one of those characters who just need to stun you to win. The thing is it's not difficult for her to stun you, and once she does she has a confident mix up that guaranteed her damage no matter what the case scenario is. You really have no logical way to get out of it and there is nothing good about the way this is designed. This has been explained all through the topic from what I read and people still doesn't get it.

Like said before no one is saying that she is broken she is just fucking stupid.

Emphasis mine.

And that warrants a hard ban?

People in other fighting game communities ban based on, you know, proven issues of over-time brokenness that force everyone to pick a specific character or be non-competitive. That's the standard for a competitive ban, or at least should be. If we're not at that level of a standard of evidence, a ban is petty and insular.

So without sufficient evidence and a shitload of theory play, we're supposed to ditch a character? For a tournament scene that isn't big enough to sustain numbers anyway and can't actually support the proof of there being a problem at all, this is warranted? And on top of that, by your own admission, she isn't even broken?

I don't even care about Alpha; she might be a problem in the metagame, but it's not even happening right now. But this is both premature and absolutely without sufficient basis, and attacking people who suggest it might not be personally is not exactly helping the rational discourse.

Not liking a character really should not be a reason. If so, we could easily ban half the cast. And that should be obvious.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

naaaaa, ban her. No one plays her in UK anyway.

@PJudge would disagree.
Not only does he main alpha, hes also a huge supporter and tournament attender..

He attended 3 tournaments while i was there, 2 where alpha was banned but he attended anyway and picked tina... Ironically enough to this thread .. lol

 

[lopedo]

We banned Tengu in DOA2:U because he was stupid and a boss character. Even though he was TERRIBLE in DOA 4, we banned him because he's a boss character.

Does Alpha not fit the criteria of a stupid character? Or hell, a boss? Explain the logic to me, PLEASE.

 

[KidArk]

Did you seriously just attempt to use my own shit against me? #LameasFUK

Still missing the point... that you're missing the point... it also seemed to bother you a lot more than it didn't affect me , hey I like DBZ. I don't understand the problem with characters being considered for banning, it's not like "better fighting games" haven't banned anyone before i.e Akuma SF II Turbo, Gill SF Third Strike and they're all boss characters , also Alpha isn't really anyone's main in the tournament so... what's so crazy about this man?

 

[SomewhatMental]

We banned Tengu in DOA2:U because he was stupid and a boss character. Even though he was TERRIBLE in DOA 4, we banned him because he's a boss character.

Does Alpha not fit the criteria of a stupid character? Or hell, a boss? Explain the logic to me, PLEASE.

If those were the criteria, it fits. Bar should be way higher than that, though, and the history of DOA2:U isn't as relevant as, say, SSF2T Akuma. (Where the standard for brokenness actually fits)

 

[UncleKitchener]

@PJudge would disagree.
Not only does he main alpha, hes also a huge supporter and tournament attender..

He attended 3 tournaments while i was there, 2 where alpha was banned but he attended anyway and picked tina... Ironically enough to this thread .. lol

Lol, I will make it my personal mission to ban this character in UK.

But seriously, that's like playing KOF98 and only playing the Boss Team. Laaaame

 

[lopedo]

Right, it does fit. And there is a whole lot of evidence BESIDES that criteria that fits the idea of banning a character from tournament play.

 

[Deleted member 473]

Still missing the point... that you're missing the point... it also seemed to bother you a lot more than it didn't affect me , hey I like DBZ. I don't understand the problem with characters being considered for banning, it's not like "better fighting games" haven't banned anyone before i.e Akuma SF II Turbo, Gill SF Third Strike and they're all boss characters , also Alpha isn't really anyone's main in the tournament so... what's so crazy about this man?

Its just fucked up, someone's main gets banned because people have sour tastes in their mouths...