3-Point Hold v. 4-Point Hold

[Jefffcore]

The stun threshold in the beta is the same as 4, you can just get a better launch from one stun than you could before so it's not really smart to do it. And extending the stun isn't the point, the fact that the best launchers and stuns are mid and you can just wait for them and hold. Defence is like hold mid or hold low to get out of the stun and hope the other person picks wrong, or even SE into a High/Mid crush if you have one; high launchers don't even matter.

The guessing game is still the same any way you spin it.

 

[DriftSlave]

I wish Shoulders and Elbows meant something in DOA.....This is why Akira will be limited...as most of those shoulders and elbows...are mids(a good chunk of them are highs tho)

 

[Berzerk!]

3 + 2 is 5, it'll never = 3.

Getting out of stun does not get fixed by adding another point of hold, they can no longer be used against wall and there are considerably more options that allow guaranteed follow ups. Well compared to the 0 in DOA4 anyways.The damage is freaking laughable at best.

That's not the case at all, and it's not a rule whatsoever.

Counting the number of commands available to perform a counter and reaching 5 does not make it a 5-point system in any meaningful way.

The expert holds simply overlap one of the existing directions, and does not change the fact that holds can be performed against 3 points.

Having these two expert holds does not take away from the fact that all mids are still held by Back+H

The argument for a 4 point hold is to TAKE AWAY mid kicks from that command and add Forward+H as the only way to counter a mid kick.

That is what makes it a 3 point vs a 4 point hold discussion.

5 point is not in the game, that is just an additional command that overlaps the existing basic option, just like Lei Fang and Bayman having Advanced Holds in DOA4 did not make them "6 point characters" - they could just as easily use the regular holds in the 4 point system to hold the same moves.

I hope this is clear now.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

The stun threshold in the beta is the same as 4, you can just get a better launch from one stun than you could before so it's not really smart to do it. And extending the stun isn't the point, the fact that the best launchers and stuns are mid and you can just wait for them and hold. Defence is like hold mid or hold low to get out of the stun and hope the other person picks wrong, or even SE into a High/Mid crush if you have one; high launchers don't even matter.

The guessing game is still the same any way you spin it.

so you dont like hayabusa's (no stun required) ? (needs initial stun)
ayane's (no stun required)?
hayate's (needs initial stun) ?
hitomi's (needs initial stun) ?

whats wrong with these launchers ? they're all high ... and just like with mid launchers.. the presence or absense of an initial stun is a huge factor ...

for mids ..
you need the initial stun for a launcher like hayate or hitomis's to work ... for example
but then again you can go for a with hitomi ... or an with hayate ... not requiring stun ..

so mid and low are NOT the only options .. and completely forgetting high hold is ignorant (despite the fact that highs whiff on crouchers) .. because there are still moves that go from high to mid ..
hayabusa's ... ( hayabusas )
hitomis
hayates (his is another amazing high launcher.. and very damn useful too)
ayane's (from behind)

all of which the mid attack follow up can be ignored to bait out your follow up mid hold for a throw ..
or you can free cancel into whatever the hell you feel like at the time ... (high/ mid / or low depending on opponents reaction)

so its never ever 50/50 especially with the throw factor involved ... its 50/50 if you reduce all hit options to 1 and all defensive options to 1 .. and that is NOT the case ..

as for stun extending ... it IS important ... for a few reasons ...
- because as long as you're stunned .. you cant fricken hit or throw ... and your only option is to hold .. or slow escape ... but in many cases slow escaping doesnt work because the opponents followup move is too fast .. so we go back to hold ... that risks you being stuffed with a high counter throw ... which is alot more damaging than a normal hold .. you are still at a disadvantage ...

- as I mentioned before, stun extending is a gamble that you choose to take .. if it pays off then you can inflict a high damage output combo ... if you do it wrong you get stuffed ... risk/reward ...
not to mention that there are some (more damaging) air juggles that only work with a high enough launcher resulting from a strong enough stun ... but again going down that path is a gamble you chose to take on your own ..

I can think of a similar senario in SF4 ... where if you empty jump, alot of anti airs would whiff and you can blow them up as they go down ... but if you want to go for damage ... pulling out an air attack would extend your hitbox making you vulnerable to the anti air ... and you will get hurt bad and even at some points hit with an extended combo if the opponent has the meter to burn (think sagat's uppercut ... with and without FADC .. it still hurts.. but can easily be baited out to whiff on a well spaced empty jump) ...
the only difference there is that all your attack options will lead to the same result and your not attacking will lead to the other ... so it is in fact a true 50/50

in DOA .. the HIGH/MID/LOW + HIGH throw/LOW throw make it alot more complex than a mere 50/50 ... add to that the HIGH into MID attacks .. and it gets even more complicated ...

and I mentioned this before and I would like to stress on this again...
DOA5 has ways to garantee damage ... and reduce the guessing

- simplest one being the non stun requiring launchers .. be it high or mid ...
- the other being walls and dangerzones ..
- then you have your odd situation that further adds to the complexity of the game ... like the trashcan dangerzone (every character has an unblockable setup into the trashcan ) .. or the slope when you're at the higher end giving you more damage potential after a launch ...

the other thing is ... why is everyone so obsessed with launchers and ignoring the other factors in the game ... like going for a trip stun .. or even a knockdown ... sometimes that is also a very valid option ...

you cant just go one track mind when playing DOA or any game for that matter .. because that will expose you and you wont get your wins ...

 

[MASTER]

DOA5 needs 4point because folks are not sold on 3 point hold. They are trying to convince veterans players that DONT have the demo into 3 point and as soon as they hear that, they want no part in DOA. Not once have i heard 3 point was better and it really isnt anyway. Its not about how much damage or how active the window is. I've realized that its the simple fact that people hear 3 point and want no part of it. Which means they are not convinced in the vision TN has for the hold system.

MASTER

 

[grap3fruitman]

Again, the issue isn't 3-point versus 4-point. DOA4 had 4-point holds and that was the worst DOA game to date. The hold's actual flaws need to be addressed. People don't want to have anything to DOA in large part due to the hold system as it is, not because of 3 vs 4.

 

[DR2K]

Counting the number of commands available to perform a counter and reaching 5 does not make it a 5-point system in any meaningful way.

The expert holds simply overlap one of the existing directions, and does not change the fact that holds can be performed against 3 points.

Having these two expert holds does not take away from the fact that all mids are still held by Back+H

The argument for a 4 point hold is to TAKE AWAY mid kicks from that command and add Forward+H as the only way to counter a mid kick.

That is what makes it a 3 point vs a 4 point hold discussion.

5 point is not in the game, that is just an additional command that overlaps the existing basic option, just like Lei Fang and Bayman having Advanced Holds in DOA4 did not make them "6 point characters" - they could just as easily use the regular holds in the 4 point system to hold the same moves.

I hope this is clear now.

Expert holds are critical to maximizing damage and can be used in any application the standard holds can be used.

 

[TRI Mike]

But I think most people here are being extremists when it comes to the holds-in-stun thing. If TN completely removes the ability to hold while stunned, the game will become MvC3 with tits, that is, a luck-centered game where people will try to find the easiest way to stun and guarantee a HUGE combo with stun, launcher and juggles, especially with fast and damaging characters like Busa, Jann Lee or Hayate while the defending players won't be able to do anything but watch.

I'm all for giving the stunned player the ability to defend him/herself, but I admit that the DOA4 system is horrible and actually gives the advantage to the defensive player. Still, I think that completely removing holds-in-stuns is a bad idea. If holds-in-stuns are to be removed, then many of the moves that stun will have to lose that ability. I really think we had a problem in DOA4 with that but removing the cause of the problem completely won't fix the game.

EDIT: Also, 6-point will never work because of Leifang and Bayman who have both parries and advanced holds. With high kick and low kick holds in 9 and 3 then they would lose their abilities to parry since the 2-directional commands would all be taken for the advanced holds and no parries would be possible. 4-point is the way to go.

 

[x Sypher x]

But I think most people here are being extremists when it comes to the holds-in-stun thing. If TN completely removes the ability to hold while stunned, the game will become MvC3 with tits, that is, a luck-centered game where people will try to find the easiest way to stun and guarantee a HUGE combo with stun, launcher and juggles, especially with fast and damaging characters like Busa, Jann Lee or Hayate while the defending players won't be able to do anything but watch.

I'm all for giving the stunned player the ability to defend him/herself, but I admit that the DOA4 system is horrible and actually gives the advantage to the defensive player. Still, I think that completely removing holds-in-stuns is a bad idea. If holds-in-stuns are to be removed, then many of the moves that stun will have to lose that ability. I really think we had a problem in DOA4 with that but removing the cause of the problem completely won't fix the game.

EDIT: Also, 6-point will never work because of Leifang and Bayman who have both parries and advanced holds. With high kick and low kick holds in 9 and 3 when they would lose their abilities to parry since the 2-directional commands would all be taken for the advanced holds and no parries would be possible. 4-point is the way to go.

That's an interesting thought, although I'm not sure what to make of it. I'll wait to hear what others have to say about this. But if they don't remove them from stun I would say at the very LEAST, there should be a significant delay before the defender can hold, like say maybe towards the end of the stun animation, however many frames that may be.

 

[PhoenixVFIRE]

One thing you guys are missing though is that IF holds were remove from stun, then the stun threshold would most likely be lowered, along with the damage and the amount of moves in the game that stun. Sure, of course there will be combos that will do great damage, but these will most likely be quite difficult to pull off every time. When you add that kind of guaranteed damage to a game, things change. I keep thinking when people hear the words no holds in stun they think of DoA4 with no holds in stun, and with NOTHING else changed in terms of threshold, amount of stuns, and damage balance. No one would play the game, because 2 seconds into the fight someone is stunned and basically dead on the next stun after that combo. Trust me, I'm sure this isn't what people want, people want the game to be balanced with no holds in stun.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

DOA5 needs 4point because folks are not sold on 3 point hold. They are trying to convince veterans players that DONT have the demo into 3 point and as soon as they hear that, they want no part in DOA. Not once have i heard 3 point was better and it really isnt anyway. Its not about how much damage or how active the window is. I've realized that its the simple fact that people hear 3 point and want no part of it. Which means they are not convinced in the vision TN has for the hold system.

MASTER

I kinda quit DOA4 and have been focusing on DOA5 apha demo and DOA3.2 .. since it seems to be the closest DOA to what they're trying to do in relation to stun and the holds ...

It does seem that they are trying to add more emphasis to the High/Mid/Low mixup game instead of the heavily reliant on MID punches/MID kicks DOA4 engine ... they even changed some move locations to be HIGH instead of MID .. etc.

I think just with that direction in mind 3-point works fine ... and it causes less confusion for a new player (especially since a 4 point system can be a little frustrating in a sense that only kicks are countered and not just any kick . only MID kicks ... ) .. lets face it .. every fighting game POST-sf4 out there has made a compromise of sort to cater to the new comers ... if having a 3 point system is the compromise DOA is doing and they're working out logical move sets around it and making the recovery of the holds clearly slower than DOA4.. not to mention a bit of latency in stun before you can hold which is a huge factor IMO .. then Im absolutely fine with a 3-point system..

on the other hand ... I do realize that a 4-point may indeed let you get away with more Mids and Highs in general .. (because you would have 3 out of 4 holds in a standing state) .but the way they have the stages designed kinda compansates for this in a way ... the stages shown so far seem quite narrow and there are far too many garanteed combos and setups after interaction with the stage, be it just a regular wall or a dangerzone ... I think matches would end too damn quick even on the largest health setting with a 4 point system .. I know this might be a strange way of looking at it .. but this is how I feel ..

having it as a 3-point in its current state kinda fits in my opinion ... and adding the advanced holds for MID punch and MID kick was a nice touch so that if you know the exact read then you can go for max damage .. in a way its like the "HOLD version" of the gamble that an attacker would do to extend stun with another strike before deciding to launch or knockdown .. and with characters like leifang and bayman (who im pretty sure they will have a 6 point advanced hold system) .. maybe they will revolve their defensive gameplay around that specificly making it one of their stronger points and make their normal holds less effective... who knows ... (just like how leifangs regular MID KICK hold did no damage and hardly allowed any follow up in doa4 since you could dash out of it.. but her advanced MID kick hold did .. etc )

 

[DrDogg]

DOA5 needs 4point because folks are not sold on 3 point hold. They are trying to convince veterans players that DONT have the demo into 3 point and as soon as they hear that, they want no part in DOA. Not once have i heard 3 point was better and it really isnt anyway. Its not about how much damage or how active the window is. I've realized that its the simple fact that people hear 3 point and want no part of it. Which means they are not convinced in the vision TN has for the hold system.

The funny thing is that the reason people don't want a 3-point hold is because it makes it too easy to land a counter. Which is the same thing the rest of us are complaining about with the hold system in general.

[sarcasm]
If the final product allows you to hold out of stun, you may as well just make it a 3-point system. If guessing is going to be the most important "skill" in competitive DOA, let's just make that as easy as possible and keep it simple.
[/sarcasm]

>_>

If TN completely removes the ability to hold while stunned, the game will become MvC3 with tits, that is, a luck-centered game where people will try to find the easiest way to stun and guarantee a HUGE combo with stun, launcher and juggles, especially with fast and damaging characters like Busa, Jann Lee or Hayate while the defending players won't be able to do anything but watch.

It won't play anything like MvC3, but everything else you said is the basis of competitive fighting games. There's a reason that hasn't changed since SF2 hit arcades in the 90s (aside from the luck part).

I'm all for giving the stunned player the ability to defend him/herself...

Why? They couldn't defend themselves well enough to avoid the stun in the first place, but you think they should have the ability to try again once they've been put in a stun?

If holds-in-stuns are to be removed, then many of the moves that stun will have to lose that ability.

What's the problem with that?

EDIT: Also, 6-point will never work because of Leifang and Bayman who have both parries and advanced holds. With high kick and low kick holds in 9 and 3 then they would lose their abilities to parry since the 2-directional commands would all be taken for the advanced holds and no parries would be possible. 4-point is the way to go.

Make the parries a different notation. 446H, 664H, etc. There are lots of ways around that problem.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

I personally prefer the 4-point holds. Your mix up options are severely limited with the 3 point. It seems that most attacks are mid attacks, and you really need the extra separation of punch and kick there, otherwise your opponent can pretty much spam mid hold and likely counter you, leaving you with only two options to avoid it; low, or high attacks. That only gives you a 50/50 chance to not be countered when you avoid doing mid attacks.

 

[Jefffcore]

so you dont like hayabusa's (no stun required) ? (needs initial stun)
ayane's (no stun required)?
hayate's (needs initial stun) ?
hitomi's (needs initial stun) ?

whats wrong with these launchers ? they're all high ... and just like with mid launchers.. the presence or absense of an initial stun is a huge factor ...

for mids ..
you need the initial stun for a launcher like hayate or hitomis's to work ... for example
but then again you can go for a with hitomi ... or an with hayate ... not requiring stun ..

so mid and low are NOT the only options .. and completely forgetting high hold is ignorant (despite the fact that highs whiff on crouchers) .. because there are still moves that go from high to mid ..
hayabusa's ... ( hayabusas )
hitomis
hayates (his is another amazing high launcher.. and very damn useful too)
ayane's (from behind)

all of which the mid attack follow up can be ignored to bait out your follow up mid hold for a throw ..
or you can free cancel into whatever the hell you feel like at the time ... (high/ mid / or low depending on opponents reaction)

- Normal Hit launchers don't matter because the chances of you catching someone on NH are close to nothing. You're more likely to hit them on CH anyway. Those other ones you mentioned were really easy to hold in 4, and if they're mid they'd be that much easier in 5.

- The point was that it's a better idea to go for the mid launch because the only thing they can do to stop it is hold mid. Highs can be held out of by holding low. Just because a launch has a follow up doesn't mean you'll be able to use it effectively, you have to hit confirm Busa's 8K,K, and that's not an easy task. If I were on offence and I thought they were going to low hold I wouldn't be using that at all anyway. I'd be using 33p or 124p in 5 and 7k, 6kk, or 4k while rising in 4. I'd still get more damage from throwing low though.

so its never ever 50/50 especially with the throw factor involved ... its 50/50 if you reduce all hit options to 1 and all defensive options to 1 .. and that is NOT the case ..

It's a 50/50 if you choose to play the way I suggested.

as for stun extending ... it IS important ... for a few reasons ...
- because as long as you're stunned .. you cant fricken hit or throw ... and your only option is to hold .. or slow escape ... but in many cases slow escaping doesnt work because the opponents followup move is too fast .. so we go back to hold ... that risks you being stuffed with a high counter throw ... which is alot more damaging than a normal hold .. you are still at a disadvantage ...

- I think we should play DOA, it would be easier to show you.

- as I mentioned before, stun extending is a gamble that you choose to take .. if it pays off then you can inflict a high damage output combo ... if you do it wrong you get stuffed ... risk/reward ...
not to mention that there are some (more damaging) air juggles that only work with a high enough launcher resulting from a strong enough stun ... but again going down that path is a gamble you chose to take on your own ..

I can think of a similar senario in SF4 ... where if you empty jump, alot of anti airs would whiff and you can blow them up as they go down ... but if you want to go for damage ... pulling out an air attack would extend your hitbox making you vulnerable to the anti air ... and you will get hurt bad and even at some points hit with an extended combo if the opponent has the meter to burn (think sagat's uppercut ... with and without FADC .. it still hurts.. but can easily be baited out to whiff on a well spaced empty jump) ...
the only difference there is that all your attack options will lead to the same result and your not attacking will lead to the other ... so it is in fact a true 50/50

You shouldn't be randomly jumping in on characters with DP's. Assuming you get a safe jump you can use OS to kill any guessing.

in DOA .. the HIGH/MID/LOW + HIGH throw/LOW throw make it alot more complex than a mere 50/50 ... add to that the HIGH into MID attacks .. and it gets even more complicated ...

and I mentioned this before and I would like to stress on this again...
DOA5 has ways to garantee damage ... and reduce the guessing

- simplest one being the non stun requiring launchers .. be it high or mid ...

They aren't that effective; you aren't going to run into many NH situations, if any.

- the other being walls and dangerzones ..

You aren't going to be near a wall that often

- then you have your odd situation that further adds to the complexity of the game ... like the trashcan dangerzone (every character has an unblockable setup into the trashcan ) ..

Those are only near the wall.

or the slope when you're at the higher end giving you more damage potential after a launch ...

You can still guess out of that.

the other thing is ... why is everyone so obsessed with launchers and ignoring the other factors in the game ... like going for a trip stun .. or even a knockdown ... sometimes that is also a very valid option ...

You're right those aren't bad options, but to get those you have to use a low sweep which are usually super slow, or stun them first to knock them over. Also, in the beta the ground game isn't that good, so you aren't getting the same opportunities you did in DOA4. Launching is the better option in 5 right now.

you cant just go one track mind when playing DOA or any game for that matter .. because that will expose you and you wont get your wins ...

In the current system 3 point is just too easy, but like grape said the problem is the ability to hold in the first place.

 

[Matt Ponton]

DOA5 needs 4point because folks are not sold on 3 point hold. They are trying to convince veterans players that DONT have the demo into 3 point and as soon as they hear that, they want no part in DOA. Not once have i heard 3 point was better and it really isnt anyway. Its not about how much damage or how active the window is. I've realized that its the simple fact that people hear 3 point and want no part of it. Which means they are not convinced in the vision TN has for the hold system.

MASTER

Also, again, I have no preference here because the issue isn't 3-point vs 4-point. In DOA3 it simply didn't matter. Sure 4-point would have helped in the terms of mixing-up mid launching attacks and making it easier to get long damaging juggles, but the main reason it didn't really matter in the end was because there were ways to prevent the defender from holding. These methods added lots of metagames into decision making and positioning on the battlefield and honestly the 3-point system helped in toning down the risk for 'guessing wrong' on which punch or kick mid launcher was going to be used when the holds already did low damage AND weren't guaranteed to come out every half second of the match.

 

[MASTER]

Again, the issue isn't 3-point versus 4-point. DOA4 had 4-point holds and that was the worst DOA game to date. The hold's actual flaws need to be addressed. People don't want to have anything to DOA in large part due to the hold system as it is, not because of 3 vs 4.

What are the actual flaws? That you can do it in stun? That there is still holds in the game? Not sure you even know what the flaws are.

We asked TN for a long time to lower the damage and window of the hold and they finally did exactly that but now there is still flaws? 3-Point holding looks like a flaw to me! How do you ask for something and then get what you ask for and still say its not good or that it's a system that has flaws? We asked for it! smh.

The Debate here is that some folks are already used to and LIKE the 4 point hold system more than the 3-point hold and folks are wondering what players would prefer. In fact i wouldn't be surprised if thats the only thing that made DOA4 actually playable to a lot folks. DOA4 wasn't bad because it had the 4 point hold system. It was 'bad' because of several reasons and you know that. Was DOA2(U) 'bad'? HECK NO! that game is the most successful of the whole franchise and it had 4-Point holds! so the argument of saying DOA4 had 4-point and it was still bad is not valid here. Nice try though.

MASTER

 

[DrDogg]

I personally prefer the 4-point holds. Your mix up options are severely limited with the 3 point. It seems that most attacks are mid attacks, and you really need the extra separation of punch and kick there, otherwise your opponent can pretty much spam mid hold and likely counter you, leaving you with only two options to avoid it; low, or high attacks. That only gives you a 50/50 chance to not be countered when you avoid doing mid attacks.

Conversely, having a 3-point hold system actually creates more of a guessing game than a 4-point system. If most launchers are mid, and the best counter option is mid, then you have a much greater chance of landing a hi-counter throw... which means it's even more dangerous to attempt the mid hold.

Seriously... there isn't a significant difference between 3-point and 4-point. People don't want 3-point, but making it 4-point won't fix the miniscule competitive scene. Until some of you understand that concept, this debate is pointless.

What are the actual flaws? That you can do it in stun?

EXACTLY!

Not sure you even know what the flaws are.

There are people on this site who do not know what the flaws are. Grap3 is not one of them.

We asked TN for a long time to lower the damage and window of the hold and they finally did exactly that...

So maybe if we ask them to remove holds from stun, they'll do that as well and we'll have a game that more than 15 people want to play in tournaments.

Was DOA2(U) 'bad'? HECK NO! that game is the most successful of the whole franchise and it had 4-Point holds! so the argument of saying DOA4 had 4-point and it was still bad is not valid here. Nice try though.

How many tournaments were there for DOA2U?

Yes, the debate for this specific topic is between 3-point and 4-point holds. But guess what? The topic is here because people want to see a solid competitive scene for DOA5. Changing the Alpha to 4-point holds is not going to do that.

 

[Matt Ponton]

MASTER

I read all of that but still am a bit lost at what exactly you're saying there, I just couldn't follow your thought process.

Would you mind retyping/rewording it for me?

 

[Jefffcore]

Conversely, having a 3-point hold system actually creates more of a guessing game than a 4-point system. If most launchers are mid, and the best counter option is mid, then you have a much greater chance of landing a hi-counter throw... which means it's even more dangerous to attempt the mid hold.

But it's more shallow.

Seriously... there isn't a significant difference between 3-point and 4-point. People don't want 3-point, but making it 4-point won't fix the miniscule competitive scene. Until some of you understand that concept, this debate is pointless.

 

[DrDogg]

But it's more shallow.

The shallow ends of a play pool are 3 feet. The "deep" part is 5 feet. I can still stand in both.

/confucius