Do you want a tournament scene?

[Skilletor]

Taking away the stun threshold and holds in stun completely is a ridiculous idea. DOA is a game based on speed. The characters that aren't fast would all have to have ridiculous crushes or the fast characters would just have to be super unsafe if they cancelled strings. Alternative is making ridiculous guesses out of stun. No thanks. Doesn't matter how small it is, they'd be able to fuck with it all day.

Bass and Gen Fu did okay in DoA3.1. DoA didn't have the stun threshold before 4. Seemed to be okay in every single other DoA game.

And you're making ridiculous guesses out of stun no matter what. That's all DoA is. Guessing. That's bad.

 

[Jefffcore]

lol So many replies. I love being called a scrub.

This isn't SC!

I understand that you're bad at DOA. I never said I wanted some crazy "I can just hold whenever I want" scenario. I was saying that taking them out completely wouldn't make sense.

 

[DR2K]

lol So many replies. I love being called a scrub.

This isn't SC!

I understand that you're bad at DOA. I never said I wanted some crazy "I can just hold whenever I want" scenario. I was saying that taking them out completely wouldn't make sense.

For DOA4 probably because everything puts you in stun and it lasts forever, but with DOA5 stuns have been reduced considerably wwhere no holding would work. We're talking about completely different games here and you're just making general blanket statements for the entire series.

 

[Jefffcore]

I think you missed my point

 

[Relius Starkiller]

All fighting games are guessing games, its just that in the case of DOA is reversed so that instead of the defender guessing its the offensive fighter who has to be wary.

This is all very simple guys - 4 point countering, Lower the counter window, punish the defender for missed counters, more 2/3 - 1's, 50/50's for the slow/heavies (Not across the board, evaluated by character needs) . . .I mean this is a really simple formula.

But ya know what? Make DOA the perfect fighter - it doesn't fucking matter.

VF5, arguably most complete 3D fighter of all time and was dead on arrival when it dropped in 07.

KOF13 is basically dead.

MK9 is being played for money (Something most of you hate the idea of)

Meltyblood has a very hardcore fanbase but its not enough to sustain even a regional scene, let alone local.

Blazblue can't put up decent regional numbers anymore either.

Ya know whats popular - Tekken, Street Fighter and Capcom fighters? Ya know whats fly by night? Everything thing else. I don't care about standing up on some stage in Vegas anymore, all I want to do is kick your ass - thats all the motivation I need to be better than you.

The number 1 thing DOA has going for it right now is that its now a fighter that a generation of kids have grown up playing it (From 3 to Ultimate to 4). So when DOA5 drops you'll have a number of players who have been playing since they were 11 and 12 and are just now old enough to travel - go let those people know that this place exists.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

I understand that you're bad at DOA. .

You're bad at DOA too - everytime you lose you badly you quit.

 

[Jefffcore]

We can't all be as good as you.

 

[Chris Harris]

You're bad at DOA too - everytime you lose you badly you quit.

Are both of you seriously arguing about who's good and who's not? No one plays DoA 4 anymore except you guys. . . but since I have been introduced to this ignore feature we know exactly where you're going

 

[DrDogg]

I understand that you're bad at DOA. I never said I wanted some crazy "I can just hold whenever I want" scenario. I was saying that taking them out completely wouldn't make sense.

I'm not sure if you're referring to me with this statement or not, but if you are, I think you took my comment the wrong way. Let me try to clarify.

You've made it very clear that you are concerned about Hayabusa in the Alpha demo. I don't think your concerns are all that justified... but we've had that discussion before. Instead of having that conversation again, you'll be able to see how good Hayabusa is in a few short weeks.

I would think you'd be pleased to hear that, my mistake.

 

[Raansu]

I think I'm at the point now where I just want to say fuck it and tell them to just add a damn meter to the game. Put them on defensive holds and power blows. There ya go, no meter no hold. And this is coming from someone who hates meters.

 

[DriftSlave]

I think I'm at the point now where I just want to say fuck it and tell them to just add a damn meter to the game. Put them on defensive blows and power blows. There ya go, no meter no hold. And this is coming from someone who hates meters.

if they do it right, i can dig it. Make Izuna Cost meter though....just to piss off Busa users even more.

 

[Rikuto]

All fighting games are guessing games, its just that in the case of DOA is reversed so that instead of the defender guessing its the offensive fighter who has to be wary.

This is all very simple guys - 4 point countering, Lower the counter window, punish the defender for missed counters, more 2/3 - 1's, 50/50's for the slow/heavies (Not across the board, evaluated by character needs) . . .I mean this is a really simple formula.

But ya know what? Make DOA the perfect fighter - it doesn't fucking matter.

VF5, arguably most complete 3D fighter of all time and was dead on arrival when it dropped in 07.

KOF13 is basically dead.

MK9 is being played for money (Something most of you hate the idea of)

Meltyblood has a very hardcore fanbase but its not enough to sustain even a regional scene, let alone local.

Blazblue can't put up decent regional numbers anymore either.

Ya know whats popular - Tekken, Street Fighter and Capcom fighters? Ya know whats fly by night? Everything thing else. I don't care about standing up on some stage in Vegas anymore, all I want to do is kick your ass - thats all the motivation I need to be better than you.

The number 1 thing DOA has going for it right now is that its now a fighter that a generation of kids have grown up playing it (From 3 to Ultimate to 4). So when DOA5 drops you'll have a number of players who have been playing since they were 11 and 12 and are just now old enough to travel - go let those people know that this place exists.

DOA 5 alpha vids havnt got shit for youtube views compared to other games. The audience is not as big as you think.

Speaking of which....

@0:26 Watch me perform my Naraku high-counter throw punishment WITH environment assistance.

@2:51 Watch Hayabusa's counter and do more damage than my punish.

Truly, I can't imagine why anyone would hate this game.

 

[ScattereDreams]

@2:51 Watch Hayabusa's counter and do more damage than my punish.

I bet even Astaroth would get jealous and mouth drop after 2:55

 

[Berzerk!]

Counter-hits as they are suck, Berzerk. You put way too much stock in them. They don't do shit for damage in even terrain open space and you know it. If I'm in open space wailing on my opponent and he's missing every one of his counters on me as is, I'm still only going to get about 1/3rd of his lifebar. It doesn't even matter that he's missing them. I want you to think about how little life that is for how much effort that takes.

They suck right now because you can counter out of them. But with either of the changes we are advocating, if you hit someone with a good counter hit, you have advantage, and they could design it so that the range of attacks that provide critical stun is broadened on counter hit.

Then you can't hold. Then you're in the shit.

Even if they didn't change it to being unable to hold, in the current system the defender is still likely to be punished for attempting to hold, but other adjustment options would be - if they put a hold delay, or had hold resistant launchers as you suggested - then the attacker at least has a safe window to follow up.

 

[Berzerk!]

I've been saying for quite some time that holds don't have to be removed from stun. The MAIN thing that needs to be done is something that prevents people from holding as frequently as they do, and eliminates holds being the primary defensive option.

Agree... a float of various system adjustments, as discussed above. Are there any measures proposed that you favour? What is your opinion on the practicality of the suggestions against what TN would likely implement?

That said... instead of blocking and punishing, you'd rather have a meterless get-out-of-jail free card that you can use anytime you're in trouble or just forgot how to play defense? Because that's basically what counterholds are at this point.

Well, block and punish in 3d games is still generally more interesting than it seems on paper due to the height system (and throw/throw escapes - DOA needs to expand on this), but you do need another element.

Sidesteps and Counter holds are the options on the table for DOA - sidesteps are too slow, and counter holds, while good, need to be a little more punishable, so that it's either "get out of jail free" but with a solid risk of "I read that wrong, now I'm in jail... in the showers"

 

[CyberEvil]

Oh, that reminds me. I still haven't uploaded the rest. Youtube told me that one of my vids was a duplicate when it wasn't and I got annoyed and stopped. I'll get on that tonight or tomorrow. Probably. I didn't get the weird Hitomi counter glitch up yet, either.

 

[Berzerk!]

On community and travelling to tournaments - I think the whole fighting game scene and awareness of tournaments, access to footage, all of that, has changed.

Attitudes to tournaments have changed amongst the broader scene and it is a generally understood consensus that you need to go to play a live tournament for it to count. As for DOA's popularity at tournaments, it's really up to the new game coming into this changed environment, and key people leading the way and representing the game well on streams etc.

That's why I used the VF examples earlier - this is a historically unpopular game and its got problems with its reputation too - that it's "too hard", when it's in fact easy to learn. "Too boring", but at Shadowloo Showdown we showed it can be spectacular and exciting - and won over the crowd. This happens at other events around the world

Bit by bit, this will occur for DOA. Watch Sega with VF, they are doing some of the right things. Allowing it to stream at tournaments, doing the prelaunch party with Level Up and the top players, supporting it at EVO, etc.The fighting scene is bigger now and we are winning over a segment of the scene who wants something new. And this is very new to a lot of players.

As for the Youtube videos? Wouldn't expect high views, we haven't had any high level DOA5 play and certainly no tournament play on a stream at a major event.

But it will happen, and the important thing is for us all to get behind that. This aspect of the discussion deserves its own whole set of threads - how we support the game.

 

[Rikuto]

They suck right now because you can counter out of them. But with either of the changes we are advocating, if you hit someone with a good counter hit, you have advantage, and they could design it so that the range of attacks that provide critical stun is broadened on counter hit.

Then you can't hold. Then you're in the shit.

Even if they didn't change it to being unable to hold, in the current system the defender is still likely to be punished for attempting to hold, but other adjustment options would be - if they put a hold delay, or had hold resistant launchers as you suggested - then the attacker at least has a safe window to follow up.

1. Delays on stun help the defender, not the attacker, as they are in DOA 4 with deep stuns. It makes high-counter holds easier to time. I don't know why you guys keep advocating for something that is going to make the situation even worse than it is. If you're talking about stuns that guarantee a followup, make this clear, because people use to go on about how deep stuns were good because of this delay and the reality was they were complete shit and only got you killed faster.

2. I've got a hold resistant launcher already in the alpha demo. I do like it.

3. The "punishment" for holding is currently a slap on the wrist compared to the damage for holding in its full potential. Can't be emphasized enough how messed up that is.

 

[DriftSlave]

snip

Listen I see where your going with this and no this isn't the way DOA should go. I love VF as much as anyone else who grew up on the series but I'm not betting on it staying for very long. DOA is better off following the Soul Calibur community then anything else, Considering how SCIV left a bad taste in alot of peoples mouths, it still had a long tournament life before it died(longer then SC3), SCV was the game that rebounded that community and is a good enough game openly enough was competitive for people to want to play in tournaments. SCV is a success, We do not know the success of VF5FS yet...SEGA hasn't even given us a release date....something is fishy with that.

DOA5 needs to be a game were is can get new players and a game to be competitive enough for people that want to run the game at a tournament, because lets face it. When you got KOFXIII, SCV and Soon to be Tag2, plus 3 Capcom fighters....you think there is going to be enough room to stream DOA5? This may push a few buttons but it's the current situation, DOA5 has to be good enough to push games like VF5FS or KOFXIII off the Streams and take it's spot convincingly. In it's current state, im not sure. Even watching Rikuto's match just now was only hype when his Hayate was doing Danger Zone Combos and stuff.

I think Rikuto's point about the youtube vids was the fact that...not enough people are watching the stuff now...while other games in it's similar situation(Tag2) has a crap-ton more views(This is when I DO NOT FACTOR ANY ARCADE FOOTAGE, only Console trailers). Tekken is DOA's competition, im just being realistic.

 

[DrDogg]

Speaking of which....

@0:26 Watch me perform my Naraku high-counter throw punishment WITH environment assistance.

@2:51 Watch Hayabusa's counter and do more damage than my punish.

Truly, I can't imagine why anyone would hate this game.

I think the most important thing to note here is that it's extremely difficult to tell who has the advantage throughout this match. Seriously, this is the only game in which I can't tell who's at advantage. I don't even play Marvel or SF and I know which player has the advantage at all times. That seriously needs to change.

On a side note... was that match pretty boring for anyone else? If so, that's another issue that needs to be addressed. I skip SFxT tournament streams because it's boring to watch. If DOA can up it's game, I'd hate to see people skip over it because it's boring to watch.

Agree... a float of various system adjustments, as discussed above. Are there any measures proposed that you favour? What is your opinion on the practicality of the suggestions against what TN would likely implement?

It's really hard to say. Team Ninja has a set plan. Our feedback will only make them sway slightly in one direction or another. But none of the changes we've proposed are that difficult to implement.

Adding a damage modifier every time you miss a counter works to an extent, but it actually gives the scrub more power IMO. They'll ignore this fact and counter just like before, which could cause me to lose to a guess, which is the most frustrating thing about DOA. DOA is the only game in which I actually get upset when I lose because I feel I've learned nothing from the loss other than "guess better".

I still prefer stuns that prevent counterholds completely, and/or attacks that ignore counterholds. Give me those two additions done right and that's a big step in the right direction. I also don't think that's difficult to add, even late into the development cycle.

Attitudes to tournaments have changed amongst the broader scene and it is a generally understood consensus that you need to go to play a live tournament for it to count. As for DOA's popularity at tournaments, it's really up to the new game coming into this changed environment, and key people leading the way and representing the game well on streams etc.

DOA5 will have several opportunities to shine on a major tournament stream before the end of the year. No matter what the game turns out to be, I can guarantee that much.

Watch Sega with VF, they are doing some of the right things. Allowing it to stream at tournaments, doing the prelaunch party with Level Up and the top players, supporting it at EVO, etc.

I'm actually very much against Sega putting up $15k for VF5: FS at Evo. With the number of Japanese players coming, the significant changes between VF5 ver B, ver C and Final Showdown, and the fact that only a handful of US players have ever even touched the game, it's basically giving the Japanese players $15k and telling them to stomp all over the US players.

It'd be one thing if a majority of players were on even footing, but the fact that the Japanese players will have a two-year head start on the American players (who will have practically ZERO play time), I'd rather see Sega run a VF5 tournament AFTER the US release for $15k.

DOA5 needs to be a game were is can get new players and a game to be competitive enough for people that want to run the game at a tournament, because lets face it. When you got KOFXIII, SCV and Soon to be Tag2, plus 3 Capcom fighters....you think there is going to be enough room to stream DOA5? This may push a few buttons but it's the current situation, DOA5 has to be good enough to push games like VF5FS or KOFXIII off the Streams and take it's spot convincingly. In it's current state, im not sure.

You forgot Mortal Kombat. It's still getting quite a bit of stream love at tournaments.