Do you want a tournament scene?
- Thread starter DrDogg
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MrMoon360
Well-Known Member
RoboJoe
Well-Known Member
"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad." What's a few more months after so many years?
Also, holds is stun probably won't go, true, but there are compromises which have been listed throughout this thread. Removing them outright is just one way to handle it. Didn't we just have this conversation 12 hours ago?
MrMoon360
Well-Known Member
True.
Those compromises, I am not against. Never made an argument against them.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Can you explain why a person should be able to avoid two completely separate hit level attacks after being stunned? As I mentioned previously, the low hold is already too good because even with the reduced recovery, it still avoids more strikes than any other hold, and eliminates the highest damaging throw punishment option from the table. It's still, bar none, the best hold in the game.
4 Point is better for competition. Trust me. Hell 6 point would be better, but people are too chicken for that, so let's settle on 4 point.
What your suggesting has been tried before, some stuns already do this in DOA 4. What people don't seem to understand is that adding frames to a stun alone simply makes the counter come out more directly on top of the strike, resulting in higher Hold damage.
Example: Player is stunned without ability to hold for 8 frames, opponent uses 10 frame jab, hold comes out on the 2nd frame of the jab and does high-counter damage against the attacker. All this is doing to helping the defender by rewarding him with easy to set up, free damage for just doing what he always does.
When you add initial frames to the hold itself however, you create situations where people can't peform a successful instant hold after certain blocked attacks with frame advantage and this creates unique pressure situations for the attacker, forcing an opponent to actually block instead.
- insteand of your proposed damage control (which doesnt sound too bad) , I would still rather have the DOAsystem that I mentioned before ... it gives strikes the edge they need without making it too complicated ...
counter strike = auto mid height launch
hi counter strike = auto heighest launch = no need to reach critical threshold
normal launch = the current low height
single stun into launch = low height
single stun + anything (even a jab) into launch = mid height
threshold = you get a stun situation similar to sitdown and you cannot hold immediately (i.e. a monkey can read the hold attempt) + if you launch you get the highest launch
I think these changes would make a nice touch and give strikes the boost they need ...
Before I say this, I want you to understand.... if DOAD was truly good, and had truly fixed the counter problem, we would be playing it. That in mind, I'll continue.
The problem with that ideology is that no matter what you can read from your opponent, if you're launching with a 16 frame kick, its going to take 16 frames to get out there. The defender can always wait for you to start it up and then make his guess. Your opponent is still making the same guess in the same timeframe, its just the window is slightly delayed. The stun duration is not infinite.
By putting in the damage scaling, you're not courting yourself with false comforts that only entrap complete scrubs. If someone is using counters and you hit them, they are pretty much going to die. What the game needs a stronger deterrent to countering. Big damage is the strongest deterrent.
That's kind of the intent, yes. People want holds in stun, give them holds in stun. People want to be able to shit all over holds in stun, this is a good way to shit all over holds in stun. But no, this isn't something that would carry over into the next round, only that particular combo. If someone has a juggle that does half lifebar though, and you end up stuffing TWO counters in the process of the stun, they are going to die within that juggle. That is justice.
The counter still has to be weakened though, the low hold specifically. It should count as a standing move. If people want to go around and claim that the hold system is only a 1/4 chance per strike of working, it needs to be an actual 1/4 chance per strike. Right now the 3 point hold system is actually a 1/2 chance and 4 point is 1/3 chance because low holds go under highs. Accumulated probability is still working against the attacker as well, and it has to balance out.
This isn't all me, i'm echo'ing the thoughts of DrDogg and Chris Harris and attempting at consolidating things somewhat because people keep arguing about stupid shit instead of making progress. lol
Chris Harris
Well-Known Member
@ Rikuto That is exactly what we are trying to say but they don't seem to understand. We are looking for a deterrent for people to not throw holds out after every hit. Low hold does need to not be crouching state because it is the MOST used hold for that reason alone.
Fact is the person in the attacking seat has to try to hard to pry open someones "mind game" that they already beat them on the basics of the fighting game to begin with. So I hit you but now I still have to out think you because you still do more damage than me? Insanity @_@
Fact is the person in the attacking seat has to try to hard to pry open someones "mind game" that they already beat them on the basics of the fighting game to begin with. So I hit you but now I still have to out think you because you still do more damage than me? Insanity @_@
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Exactly.
3.1, Bass WANTS YOU to hold, because that means you just gave him his best opportunity to kill you. He shouldn't fear your hold, you should fear having to even use it.
@1:20 Now THAT'S a deterrent. Holds are still too easy and do too much damage here, but damn if they aren't a bad idea at the start of the round lol.
Ahh, Hayabusa Kawasaki, this match is also good example of high flying juggles co-existing beautifully with super high damaging grapple play.
KwonJigglypuff
Well-Known Member
Why did they got rid of Bass's fantastic throw in DOA4 (1:20) ?
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
The belief is that Itagaki saw tom brady's 3.1 vids a couple of months before release of DOA 4 and got SUPER salty. He then proceeded to completely destroy the game. (Good job, Bill)
... that's the belief, at least. What we actually do know is that Itagaki himself had everything changed 1 month before release, and SOMETHING pissed him off enough to do that. We also have him on record saying he prefers DOA 4 because you can stop everything at any time.
.... and we also have him on record facepalming at CGS and saying "I did not intend for the game to be played this way...."
It was not well thought out at all, so one has to conclude something caused the salt. Brady's were the only known public resource I'm aware of that could have done this based on Itagaki's philosophy behind fighting games.
But lets kill that discussion here. It's already going down familiar paths and it's about to derail the derailment.
... that's the belief, at least. What we actually do know is that Itagaki himself had everything changed 1 month before release, and SOMETHING pissed him off enough to do that. We also have him on record saying he prefers DOA 4 because you can stop everything at any time.
.... and we also have him on record facepalming at CGS and saying "I did not intend for the game to be played this way...."
It was not well thought out at all, so one has to conclude something caused the salt. Brady's were the only known public resource I'm aware of that could have done this based on Itagaki's philosophy behind fighting games.
But lets kill that discussion here. It's already going down familiar paths and it's about to derail the derailment.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
That fuckin' throw will cost you damn near a whole life bar; given the proper floor space and execution of the juggle. It only took me once to get caught in it for me not to make the mistake again of getting caught by it. That fear is one hell of a factor, it needs to come back ten-fold.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Yea it forces you to play the game much differently. I was in DOA 4 mindset when we did these so im playing ten kinds of wrong in these vids, but If you're fighting Bass and he hits you at the start of the match, if at all possible you just eat whatever follows. When your lifebar gets around 30% or below it starts becoming acceptable to risk a counter since you could very well die from anything anyway.
It's always better to just eat whatever you he throws at you when you still have lifebar. Better to get tripped up and eat a combo or two and try to make a comeback then get twitchy and die off the very first hit of the match like I did. Lifebar is to be treated like a limited resource that must spent at times to win the engagement.
Funny thing is, the only time Bass can do anything is when you are either countering or being hella unsafe compared to the other high tier members of the cast. Since so many other characters have frame advantage and speed, something OP looking like that really isn't at all because the situation just doesn't happen much against a lot of matchups.
If he does knock you down though, oh its on.
Bass vs Bayman is an awkward matchup, but its fun. I'm unsafe enough to play into Bass's most damaging throw, but so is he. Tankwheel fucks Bass over on his run-in options somewhat. Bayman being a heavy means Bass has a harder time managing his big juggles on me, but he gets guaranteed infinites if I sandwich myself between two walls and get grounded. I've got him beaten in overall speed and have respectable juggle damage on him which goes into guaranteed ground throws, but if he knocks me down with a single slower hit I get put into a death defying wakeup 50/50 loop.
We both play into each other rather well and fight entirely different. Good times with that game. We need more options that create that kind of fear.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Yeah, sitting and playing with Sorwah for a while I learned to just take the minor juggles from Bass, quick. Holding out of shit and not having a good idea of what's coming next, is a huge no-no. I also figured out what to do to avoid his crazy shit, lol, when I hear people cry about him, it's funny. Ground pick ups from him can get filthy, oh I know. This game is mad fun, I enjoy it every time I play it.
x Sypher x
Active Member
I would give anything to play 3.1 with someone, Jan Lee is calling my name lol.
d3v
Well-Known Member
Makes me with that the game were properly emulated on PC.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
Been away for a bit ... playing Virtua Fighter 5 FS at this event:
http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/321253/1
Which was totally amazing and I would encourage people to play this game.
Relevant to some of the discussions here, I'd like to see more people play VF, get used to the evade system and the mid/low/guard/evade/escape mixups and you may come around to the opinion that they don't need to kill the hold in DOA, just to improve the other systems around it and tone it (down) accordingly. But I don't think if they don't remove holds from all stuns that the tournament scene cannot become robust and lasting. There are many outside factors and other systemic measures in the game itself that will also play a role.
Playing VF and then also playing DOA5 demo this weekend, I'm still feeling good about the direction of DOA -towards VF - and I hope it continues.
TN working with the VF team to integrate their characters has to have had an influence on DOA, and I do wonder what tweaks will be in the new E3 build of DOA - hoping for improved sidestep, throw escape, and good solid tweaks to the other existing systems to mitigate this hold argument a little more as I say above.
In short, try VF, it will probably make you feel better about fighting games and give you a good option to enjoy if you feel DOA5 will not turn out well. That's what I'll do, but I remain positive about DOA.
An aside, it's always interesting going to a big event and participating and talking to players of all sorts of games, there are genuine complaints about guessing, about punishment, about skewed risk/reward, usually in favour of the attacker. But there are also defensive situations, usually from attacking out of disadvantage, messed up hitboxes or exceptions to the high/mid standards, that can blow you up despite doing the "right" things.
I like that the system in DOA good internal sense. There is worse in other fighters than being countered for a single chunk of minimal damage in DOA. Counters rarely set up big damage, positioning and tech trap/wakeup games - it usually resets to a knockdown/wakeup and players stand up and go from neutral.
Getting countered makes it clear to the attacker when he was getting too predictable - the important thing is that the defender also has a risk in attempting to neutralise an attack. Note! Do not forget I said above and continue to argue the risk/reward balance still needs to be adjusted to mitigate holds more in favour of the attacker.
I just think that people are getting a bit overwrought and stressing on this point when a range of systemic adjustments to the hold and things around the hold can achieve what we want. You don't necessarily have to get drastic about changing one particular part over another.
The argument here tends to revolve around the idea one shouldn't have to guess, but there is guessing in every game including the most refined fighter of all, VF5FS. The mindgames here are more often about getting the initial hit or to set up a mix up, or a throw.
Whereas in DOA, which has the above, the mindgames also continue (to an extent) into the first few hits of a stun. This is not a bad thing in and of itself. There is no rule that says the game has to work on the basis of opening up the first hit and you destroy the defender from there.
We should be able to accept a system that the first hit doesn't guarantee everything else - hit confirming into massive combos from low risk pokes is not a great thing. Committing intelligently to the right move to get the right amount of reward, is.
The idea of adjusting the stun system to have less big stuns, and changing the few big stuns - critical stuns - that remain, and providing other moves that may be slower to provide advantage or 2-in-1 or a launch without stun, are all good measures.
Taking holds out of critical seems a way to go, so long as you don't have to risk everything on a single strategy - stun extension -to get a critical. Being countered out of small stuns where you haven't earned the big damage yet is no big deal if the damage is no big deal, and I know that I have so many options to force the defender to worry about being punished for counter holding incorrectly (the fear element from direct punishment, guard break, launcher, etc)
It seems evident TN are working on a number of options. I'm after a change to the holds, but also sensible whole system tweaks around it.
http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/321253/1
Which was totally amazing and I would encourage people to play this game.
Relevant to some of the discussions here, I'd like to see more people play VF, get used to the evade system and the mid/low/guard/evade/escape mixups and you may come around to the opinion that they don't need to kill the hold in DOA, just to improve the other systems around it and tone it (down) accordingly. But I don't think if they don't remove holds from all stuns that the tournament scene cannot become robust and lasting. There are many outside factors and other systemic measures in the game itself that will also play a role.
Playing VF and then also playing DOA5 demo this weekend, I'm still feeling good about the direction of DOA -towards VF - and I hope it continues.
TN working with the VF team to integrate their characters has to have had an influence on DOA, and I do wonder what tweaks will be in the new E3 build of DOA - hoping for improved sidestep, throw escape, and good solid tweaks to the other existing systems to mitigate this hold argument a little more as I say above.
In short, try VF, it will probably make you feel better about fighting games and give you a good option to enjoy if you feel DOA5 will not turn out well. That's what I'll do, but I remain positive about DOA.
An aside, it's always interesting going to a big event and participating and talking to players of all sorts of games, there are genuine complaints about guessing, about punishment, about skewed risk/reward, usually in favour of the attacker. But there are also defensive situations, usually from attacking out of disadvantage, messed up hitboxes or exceptions to the high/mid standards, that can blow you up despite doing the "right" things.
I like that the system in DOA good internal sense. There is worse in other fighters than being countered for a single chunk of minimal damage in DOA. Counters rarely set up big damage, positioning and tech trap/wakeup games - it usually resets to a knockdown/wakeup and players stand up and go from neutral.
Getting countered makes it clear to the attacker when he was getting too predictable - the important thing is that the defender also has a risk in attempting to neutralise an attack. Note! Do not forget I said above and continue to argue the risk/reward balance still needs to be adjusted to mitigate holds more in favour of the attacker.
I just think that people are getting a bit overwrought and stressing on this point when a range of systemic adjustments to the hold and things around the hold can achieve what we want. You don't necessarily have to get drastic about changing one particular part over another.
The argument here tends to revolve around the idea one shouldn't have to guess, but there is guessing in every game including the most refined fighter of all, VF5FS. The mindgames here are more often about getting the initial hit or to set up a mix up, or a throw.
Whereas in DOA, which has the above, the mindgames also continue (to an extent) into the first few hits of a stun. This is not a bad thing in and of itself. There is no rule that says the game has to work on the basis of opening up the first hit and you destroy the defender from there.
We should be able to accept a system that the first hit doesn't guarantee everything else - hit confirming into massive combos from low risk pokes is not a great thing. Committing intelligently to the right move to get the right amount of reward, is.
The idea of adjusting the stun system to have less big stuns, and changing the few big stuns - critical stuns - that remain, and providing other moves that may be slower to provide advantage or 2-in-1 or a launch without stun, are all good measures.
Taking holds out of critical seems a way to go, so long as you don't have to risk everything on a single strategy - stun extension -to get a critical. Being countered out of small stuns where you haven't earned the big damage yet is no big deal if the damage is no big deal, and I know that I have so many options to force the defender to worry about being punished for counter holding incorrectly (the fear element from direct punishment, guard break, launcher, etc)
It seems evident TN are working on a number of options. I'm after a change to the holds, but also sensible whole system tweaks around it.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
It's like the entire last 13 pages didn't happen or something. Did you really just decide to scrap a weeks worth of debates over this topic and start over from the very beginning? Over one session of VF you just.... forgot everything?
DOA isn't VF. VF does not have DOA's problems.
And lately we've been trying to start discussion of damage scaling as an alternative fix, but people keep going all ADHD and reverting back to "HOLDS IN STUN WHY U KILL IT BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR!" Debate doesn't work like this. There's no way to make any progress when people keep trying to regress back to step one. Fuck...
And as usual, you can't seem to understand the real problem people have with the game which is why you guys keep regressing back to step one. It's not that there is guessing, it's that there is no reasonable finality to the guessing and that always turns the risk/reward against the attacker. Your idea of "small chunk of damage from a counter" is completely ridiculous. Some counters are indeed trash now, but some hit so ridiculously hard its beyond stupid. Hayabusa knows all about that shit, I reckon Bayman/Leifang do too.
A good advanced counter should be doing maybe a quarter life at high-counter while its not used in stun, with less than half the active frames it has now. Busa gets around half lifebar in the fricken demo with the window wide as hell. In what whacky ass Dr. Suess plane of existence is that good gameplay? And don't act like it's hard to just randomly counter a high or a mid punch from neutral, its not. The fuck is someone going to do on offense, rush you down with high kicks all day? Or maybe he'll just sweep you to death.
Oh yea, you can't do that reasonably either because the low hold will fuck up both options.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Rikuto, you beat me to a response on his post. I read all of it and he literally is still on the tidal wave of hype from the new VF game. Which I am pretty sure is a great game but, don't get it confused with DOA . Our problems are on a larger scale as of now.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
I was partly prompted to wrap up a number of reflections on attitudes to changes by this post, as VF5 at Shadowloo Showdown was used as an example of a community making up for lost time. It may be ironic to you to know I organised that event while seeming to be at an "opposing" viewpoint. EG - I don't think that they will take holds out of stun, nor do they need to in order to make it a competitive game.
The point of responding in that context is to point out my strong understanding of the competitive scene as so many people seem to have difficulty being able to engage with other perspectives without "seeing their credentials".
I think we all agree that we'd like further changes to the holds, but the conversation seems to have become "you must agree that holds in stun are stupid, and if you don't, YOU are stupid."
It's certainly worth reiterating that's NOT the only answer to the game becoming competitive. There are a broad range of system adjustments that will make the holds less of a problem; there are changes to make to the holds themselves; then there are things outside of the game that help tourney scenes activate like the community and publisher supporting it. I used the example of problems with other games to remind everyone as I was reminded this weekend that despite glaring problems these other games have a tournament life.
It's not like I don't think further changes aren't needed, but it doesn't seem to be okay to discuss more than the singular group-think on how to make changes.
Holds against "weak" stuns are fine, because that's very much early stage, low risk areas of attack. When a strong stun is landed, or a riskier move/setup grants you advantage or a launch, you should be at lower risk of a hold and higher guarantee of damage.
We're all driving towards the same goal, so lets stop jumping down each other's throat for (moderately) different notions on how to get there?
(Disclaimer: I agree that if anyone is *actually* advocating NO change, they're not helping).
Edit: Rikuto: We agree the damage, active window, and recovery need to be looked at further. I've always advocated this. You don't need to take counters out of all stuns do achieve this, just out of key criticals. It's not regressive to face reality and address that most likely, TN will not make a change as drastic as removing holds from all stuns.
So I propose working within a more realistic frame and we can still do quite a lot..
Adjusting the timing windows and returning to 4 point is realistic; a lot of good can come from that alone, then add in further systemic benefits like guard break, advantage, proper step and unholdable critical stuns, and you have a really competitive basis while still maintaining the added level of mindgames to the INITIAL segment of an attack.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
and we've alreaaaady gotten theeeeeeeeeeere. Thank you for introducing these horrifying walls of text that are only going to encourage relapse. I'm glad you like VF5FS, i'm sure its an entirely badass game.
And holds in stun are stupid.
The fact of the matter is that you've never once played any game where it worked right, and nobody has. Yet every advocate for it is defending it to the death because you'd rather the game meet its fate as Failed Experiment 5 instead of a possibly-worthy tournament game. Taking away some of stupid mechanics is not blasphemy in game design. I don't give two shits if it makes the game "less unique" if the mechanics were idiotic to begin with and destabilized the game as a whole.
Despite this we've been trying to come up with a solution that meets both of our needs, but you're lagging behind by like four days and are trying to start a philosophical fighting game debate that is neither relevant nor correct with any of the solutions you have offered.
http://freestepdodge.com/threads/do-you-want-a-tournament-scene.709/page-10#post-12266
This is what is relevant and most likely to satisfy all parties. If you want to debate something, debate that. And don't debate whether or not its unique, or legit, or interesting. Debate whether or not it would work without pissing most people off. Chris and I keep trying to bring it up so we have a solution to the problems with the game and you guys keep drowning it out with unrelated crap and other solutions which don't even address those problems. Getting every one of you to pay attention at once is like fighting with a brain damaged hydra.
My thanks to those that actually have.
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