When will fighting games be challenging again?

[Mestizo]

I'll write more later. but here is the short version: when will fighting games won't be so braindead and easy to get into. when will it push players to actually learn the game and not just hop on to what is cheap. I feel fighters have been dumb down since the arcade and 2D era of fighters.

take up real martial arts, get good and compete in full contact competitions. Then you will realize fighting itself is a very simple straightforward thing. It just boils down to reading opponents, working the speeds/angles of strikes, footwork/spacing, and combos/mixup that have every strike able to be held.

tbh real life fighitng is nothing but perfection of very simple things. Try it yourself and you will realize videogames only have so much to work with.

 

[Rikuto]

X factor is arguably a dumb mechanic, but realistically you can use it whenever you want and your opponent can do the same to counter-act it to a degree. I think it's too good for what it does, but I don't play Marvel so I won't get heavy into it.

Actual revenge mechanics I have more problems with. I don't believe anyone should be rewarded for failure.

 

[o_YUE_o]

X factor is arguably a dumb mechanic.

 

[MasterHavik]

take up real martial arts, get good and compete in full contact competitions. Then you will realize fighting itself is a very simple straightforward thing. It just boils down to reading opponents, working the speeds/angles of strikes, footwork/spacing, and combos/mixup that have every strike able to be held.

tbh real life fighitng is nothing but perfection of very simple things. Try it yourself and you will realize videogames only have so much to work with.

You just blew my fucking mind sir this made so much fucking sense. I mean boxing isn't complex either same goes for MMA.

X factor is arguably a dumb mechanic, but realistically you can use it whenever you want and your opponent can do the same to counter-act it to a degree. I think it's too good for what it does, but I don't play Marvel so I won't get heavy into it.

Actual revenge mechanics I have more problems with. I don't believe anyone should be rewarded for failure.

yeah and that's one of my main reasons I feel some games are being dumb down. Even blazblue added an X factor like mechanic.

 

[d3v]

X-Factor is only dumb in Level 3, coupled with a couple of characters (Vergil, Wesker) On a whole however, it actually helps make certain characters more viable which, face it, is actually a good thing in a game where it'll be hard to make most of the cast viable without sacrificing the freedom and the ability to break the game at high levels that players value so much. The last time they did the latter, we got the shitstorm that was Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter that the community flat out rejected.

 

[Brute]

A fighting game is as challenging as your opponent makes it. If you're finding things too easy, you're not facing good enough opponents.

 

[AkaShocka]

I agree with Brute. It's as challenging as your opponent makes it.

Anyway, even though anyone can pick up DOA and mash buttons and get away with it using certain characters (Kasumi, Christie...) but other characters you can't jump straight into like Bayman, Leifang or Mila. Sure you can spam ith them, but you will get murded. Have you ever fought those scrubby Leifangs that only do or ? Yea I hate them. But you ever fought an excellent Leifang? Dear lord... Leifang is dangerous at high level play. So is Mila. Example of Bayman at high level play: Rikuto. 'nuff said
Back to Christie and Kasumi mashers. The reason they can get away with it is because Christie go up and down in strings and have long strings. But Kasumi at high level play is... oh lord. But Christe at high level play? I hope you're good at reading and defending because once Christie gets going its over for you.

Anyway, some fighters are hard to jump into and others aren't. But as my buddy Brute said, its only challenging depending on how hard your opponent makes you work, no matter the game.

 

[MasterHavik]

X-Factor is only dumb in Level 3, coupled with a couple of characters (Vergil, Wesker) On a whole however, it actually helps make certain characters more viable which, face it, is actually a good thing in a game where it'll be hard to make most of the cast viable without sacrificing the freedom and the ability to break the game at high levels that players value so much. The last time they did the latter, we got the shitstorm that was Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter that the community flat out rejected.

x factor in sense makes everyone more viable, but in reality people in the marvel community stick to what works. Gimmick teams and weird teams have died out and people don't lose to it anymore. Fro example my main in that game is Phoenix Wright and he is a monster in turnabout mode with level x factor...but even with all the goodness of x factor he still doesn't compare to what wesker and vergil can do. Hell even morrigan with level x factor is more deadly than level 3 x factor PW.

 

[d3v]

x factor in sense makes everyone more viable, but in reality people in the marvel community stick to what works. Gimmick teams and weird teams have died out and people don't lose to it anymore. Fro example my main in that game is Phoenix Wright and he is a monster in turnabout mode with level x factor...but even with all the goodness of x factor he still doesn't compare to what wesker and vergil can do. Hell even morrigan with level x factor is more deadly than level 3 x factor PW.

But we still have more viable characters than MvC2 which was 4 god tiers plus 12 high tiers.

And among the viable, but not god tier characters in UMvC3, we have some characters that can become very good with x factor.

 

[MasterHavik]

But we still have more viable characters than MvC2 which was 4 god tiers plus 12 high tiers.

And among the viable, but not god tier characters in UMvC3, we have some characters that can become very good with x factor.

but there are go to teams in umvc3 and while you can say there more usable characters when they are. people go with what works. i mean no one bothers to use frank west(who is fucking amazing) for some odd reason.

 

[d3v]

but there are go to teams in umvc3 and while you can say there more usable characters when they are. people go with what works. i mean no one bothers to use frank west(who is fucking amazing) for some odd reason.

There are some amazing Frank players out there (I've seen Justin's Frank team up close and it's pretty dam amazing). Also, this is Marvel, who's to say the meta won't change in a couple of years. Happened to the previous games. Heck, the SRK UMvC3 forums have what us called "the Prophecy" regarding who the game's eventual top tiers and viable characters are, and parts of it (Strange top tier, Zero winning a major) have already come true.

 

[MasterHavik]

There are some amazing Frank players out there (I've seen Justin's Frank team up close and it's pretty dam amazing). Also, this is Marvel, who's to say the meta won't change in a couple of years. Happened to the previous games. Heck, the SRK UMvC3 forums have what us called "the Prophecy" regarding who the game's eventual top tiers and viable characters are, and parts of it (Strange top tier, Zero winning a major) have already come true.

but with how things are looking now for the game i think people are dead set. besides people still have trouble getting past morrigan/doom touhou super happy fun time. And yeah i know a few local frank players here too, but not really enough since everyone wants an easy way out. but hey i don't even like the game when i start going to majors i may just start heading out early when marvel starts since the game is mega boring to me.

 

[d3v]

but with how things are looking now for the game i think people are dead set. besides people still have trouble getting past morrigan/doom touhou super happy fun time. And yeah i know a few local frank players here too, but not really enough since everyone wants an easy way out. but hey i don't even like the game when i start going to majors i may just start heading out early when marvel starts since the game is mega boring to me.

But when has Marvel ever been about picking anyone but the top tiers? Same thing happened in MvC2 when Doom, Blackheart, Ice Man, etc. were considered god tier. All it took was a few players discovering that Mags was actually the best goddam rushdown character in the game for people to change their teams.

 

[Awesmic]

So fighting games are being dumbed down, yet I can't tell the difference because it takes me weeks to figure out what each button does.

Havik, I envy you. Every fighting game I play is a struggle to learn, including the ones deemed "easy and accessible".

 

[d3v]

Fun fact, MvC2 wasn't hard, not until people figured out all the unintended high execution stuff that changed the game's meta.

 

[Tenryuga]

I don't think a fighter needs to be execution heavy to have depth. If people actually believe execution = depth then that's a very shallow view of what depth is IMO. To me a fighter has depth when the games core mechanics and systems are complex and not something easily broken down or mastered in a short amount of time.

A fighter also doesn't have to be execution heavy to be challenging. I find DOA very difficult to play atm because I am not adept at reading my opponent yet and because so many moves are unsafe on block so I have to weigh when I should use a move vs when I should not. Pretty much there isn't much one can commit to in this game due to the hold system and coming from 2D fighters where pressure is safe and not pseudo pressure created by taking risks via delays and free cancelling it's taken me a while to get used to.

In my honest opinion the execution barrier is what holds some fighting games back. I would love to play competitive KOF and Tekken but the fact of the matter is that I'm probably going to have to spend years to learn the movement required of a competitive Tekken player. The same goes for combo execution and getting used to the mechanics of KOF. Some people just don't have the time to get those things down. I'm not even going to lie some people may find the fact that they have to do that first tedious and unappealing.

Regardless of what execution is required to play a fighter you must still learn the fundamentals of fighting games and whatever else your specific fighter requires of you. This is what should separate players from each other and where the challenge and depth should lie IMO. Developing the fundamental skills needed to be a beast.

 

[MasterHavik]

So fighting games are being dumbed down, yet I can't tell the difference because it takes me weeks to figure out what each button does.

Havik, I envy you. Every fighting game I play is a struggle to learn, including the ones deemed "easy and accessible".

lol it comes from getting my start in easy games like doa and SC dude.

 

[Awesmic]

lol it comes from getting my start in easy games like doa and SC dude.

What's SC? Is it that Tekken Swords game?

If so, that game wasn't easy. If it was so easy, I would've beaten my girlfriend in Tekken Swords 3 (SC2) at the time. That game is not friggin' easy. You want an easy fighting game? Play Sonic the Fighters. Now that's a real man's easy game.

In all seriousness though, my real entry into fighters started off with Darkstalkers. Sure, Street Fighter and MK were there at the time, but it didn't have that impact on me in the summer of '94 at Six Flags like this game did... but that's a story for another time. It's Rated R, after all.

 

[MasterHavik]

What's SC? Is it that Tekken Swords game?

If so, that game wasn't easy. If it was so easy, I would've beaten my girlfriend in Tekken Swords 3 (SC2) at the time. That game is not friggin' easy. You want an easy fighting game? Play Sonic the Fighters. Now that's a real man's easy game.

In all seriousness though, my real entry into fighters started off with Darkstalkers. Sure, Street Fighter and MK were there at the time, but it didn't have that impact on me in the summer of '94 at Six Flags like this game did... but that's a story for another time. It's Rated R, after all.

Oh need to tell sometimes Awesmic. And well SC as a series is easy to get into, but hard to master.

 

[d3v]

SC2 was easy since you just needed to find each character's best moves as everything was so safe. I could beat most folks around here just by using 1 or two strings with Cass.

That said, nothing screams easy like picking a early top tier team in MvC2 like Cable/IceMan/Blackheart and simply spamming away wins... at high level even.