Rachel nerfs
- Thread starter vINv
- Start date
Viper Excess
Member
I'm not sure about this. Whenever you get stunned or are at frame disadvantage, I can see ppl looking for one particular option from the opponent (throw, most damaging attack), but to know the frames of all possible options, look for all of those options at once, and then look for animations...that means you counter every attack and launch every throw attempt successfully...
In this case, you must not be having fun with this game lol. One thing is to react to quick moves (like punishing quick moves on block) but to distinguish animations from quick options and react to them every time, well, maybe you would like 2D fighters, which have faster moves than 10f.
Also, while I'm here, I see a lot of ppl calling for Rachel nerfs. I say she doesn't need them. Just look at Alpha and how much trouble she can cause, then look at Rachel and say she causes more trouble than that. Rachel has damage in all areas of the DOA triangle, a PP catch grab with sometimes guaranteed results, one (slow) move that provides frame advantage without crushing, but she has no speed and barely any range. This hampers many matchups for her already by default.
I'm not sure if she has any guaranteed stomp setups (which would make her be similar to older Helenas but without ducking stance + mixups), but imagine Rachel without her FT stomp...she only has 1 frame advantage move and not many rewarding crushes, which means she wouldn't have much going for her. She would be relegated to tag partner status at best (because of guard breaks and safety). And even Leon would win here IMO.
I know many ppl want her whiffed stomp to be at disadvantage, but I say just deal with it. If you are not in the air or grounded (which is most of the time), then you are at advantage against Rachel. For you to be in the air or grounded, she has to launch you or throw you. She has a decent chance to throw you into the air, but using an attack to launch you high enough to worry about stomp is gonna be more difficult (due to lack of speed). And no, 1PP is bad offline no matter what anyone says.
I bet her matchups are not all that great to warrant making any changes, especially negative ones, and at such an early stage of the game too. I do find that she is great at making ppl honest (discourages random mashing), but I hope this is not what makes ppl want her to get nerfed.
In this case, you must not be having fun with this game lol. One thing is to react to quick moves (like punishing quick moves on block) but to distinguish animations from quick options and react to them every time, well, maybe you would like 2D fighters, which have faster moves than 10f.
Also, while I'm here, I see a lot of ppl calling for Rachel nerfs. I say she doesn't need them. Just look at Alpha and how much trouble she can cause, then look at Rachel and say she causes more trouble than that. Rachel has damage in all areas of the DOA triangle, a PP catch grab with sometimes guaranteed results, one (slow) move that provides frame advantage without crushing, but she has no speed and barely any range. This hampers many matchups for her already by default.
I'm not sure if she has any guaranteed stomp setups (which would make her be similar to older Helenas but without ducking stance + mixups), but imagine Rachel without her FT stomp...she only has 1 frame advantage move and not many rewarding crushes, which means she wouldn't have much going for her. She would be relegated to tag partner status at best (because of guard breaks and safety). And even Leon would win here IMO.
I know many ppl want her whiffed stomp to be at disadvantage, but I say just deal with it. If you are not in the air or grounded (which is most of the time), then you are at advantage against Rachel. For you to be in the air or grounded, she has to launch you or throw you. She has a decent chance to throw you into the air, but using an attack to launch you high enough to worry about stomp is gonna be more difficult (due to lack of speed). And no, 1PP is bad offline no matter what anyone says.
I bet her matchups are not all that great to warrant making any changes, especially negative ones, and at such an early stage of the game too. I do find that she is great at making ppl honest (discourages random mashing), but I hope this is not what makes ppl want her to get nerfed.
Last edited:
Right, that's why I want her stomp to stay the way it is or be even stronger (by giving her guaranteed stomp setups). If people feel that she's too strong, nerf other stuff. Take out her okizeme and she's nothing special. I want characters that are all strong at their own individual niche.
Nobus3r1
Member
That doesn't solve her BS (the degree of which is very much debateable) but rather, likely, solves her as a character. As in there will no longer be any reason to play her over over characters. Her damage is good but not great. Her speed is legit terrible. Her "ranged" moves are either predictable or laughable in their lack of range. Being good at okizeme is the main (only?) thing she really has going for her. If that's removed without something else being added then what you're saying is "I want this character to be bad" and IMO that is both a kind of dumb thing to ask for and a terrible design philosophy.
Argentus
Well-Known Member
It doesnt make her bad, it just makes her not as braindead easy as she is now. Even without that, she's still a solid character, with air juggles, Tina ish striking game, good reach and grapples. It's not like shed suddenly be unplayable just because she lost a ground juggle.
It's like people saying Mila sucks now after they got rid of her infinite. Actually needing to get good with a character doesn't make them bad.
What an actual terrible design philosophy is, is those people who argue that onstead of needing Rachel, should instead buff everyone else to her level. So instead of fixing anything, their "solution" is to instead break everything.
If ya wanna add give her another move to compensate, fine, so long as it doesnt just functionally replace the old move, defeating the purpose of patching the old move. Like how they gave Mila feints to make up for mount being not as easy to abuse.
Argentus
Well-Known Member
She shouldnt get to loop you to near death off one hit thanks to that stomp, which she can do now. They need to balance that shit.
She just puts you in a nitaku situation. Just guess right on the 50/50 and you're out and back in charge. It's not like you're flat out dead after you get hit once. Each iteration only does like 80 damage or so. Nerf the damage by a tiny bit (like 10 damage) and no one will complain about her, 'cause you'll get an extra guess.
Lyn
Member
No.
Her being able to continue pressure after catching you is the reward for being a slower character. I don't understand why people want her vortex gone. They literally want to ruin a good character.
Last edited:
Argentus
Well-Known Member
Nobody wants to ruin a good character.
We want to balance a near broken one. She already gets to continue pressure after catching you. The issue with the ground stomp is that it let's her continue pressure again, looping the whole thing over again letting her two or more full sequences of consecutive offensive damage. That's not a good character, that's an imbalanced one. The ground stomp should be the finisher for her continued offense, not an extender.
Lyn
Member
Pressure? Her entire stun game comes from her Mids. She doesn't have any mixup options outside the vortex, her fastest move iirc is only 12 frames and it works as a extender... Not a poke tool.
She has no range, so she has to bank everything on neutral game going the pace she needs it to. What can you say to Rachel when she faces people who destroys neutral game with the press of a button?(Ayane, Kasumi, Ryu... SARAH).
I believe you guys are placing far too much value into something that is day 1 material for a character.
Complaining about throw damage is one thing, but when you don't like how a character plays; that just shows plain ignorance.
Fastest move is 11f P, like Tina's.
EDIT: She is slow, though, and relies heavily on stuff like her standing OH and 2H+K to keep up with other characters. As well as the stomp, of course.
EDIT: She is slow, though, and relies heavily on stuff like her standing OH and 2H+K to keep up with other characters. As well as the stomp, of course.
Drake Aldan
Well-Known Member
Ugh, my go-to for vs back tech, 6KP, is... holdable. Not even a 2-in-1 on CH... So I guess it's just... online tactics. ._.
And it was such a good reset, too!
Guess you're just banking on them panicking and mashing out, and not being able to hold in time...
Honestly, with stuff like this... as said, Rachel's just a classic case of matchup ignorance. You can pretty much tell right off the bat who hasn't done their homework.
But who does, right...
And it was such a good reset, too!
Guess you're just banking on them panicking and mashing out, and not being able to hold in time...
Honestly, with stuff like this... as said, Rachel's just a classic case of matchup ignorance. You can pretty much tell right off the bat who hasn't done their homework.
But who does, right...
Last edited:
Well, I mean, even if you do your homework, she's still strong once she gets a hit in. It's just that she isn't as broken as people say.
EDIT: I'd personally like her damage to be nerfed, 'cause she has okizeme and a good stun launch game when a lot of the cast have neither. That said, I'd much rather have Rachel stay the way she is or even be buffed a bit to guarantee stomp and have the rest of the cast buffed so they also have something they excel at.
EDIT: I'd personally like her damage to be nerfed, 'cause she has okizeme and a good stun launch game when a lot of the cast have neither. That said, I'd much rather have Rachel stay the way she is or even be buffed a bit to guarantee stomp and have the rest of the cast buffed so they also have something they excel at.
Nobus3r1
Member
It actually would make her pretty bad, because as I said, if that isn't there then she doesn't really have an edge in any area over other characters in terms of why play her over other them.
You have picked an extreme example. Your example would be more comparable if everyone of Rachel's combos guaranteed stomp, left her at more frame advantage than it does currently and prevented you from crouching on re-stand (i.e. command grab is guaranteed) and even then it wouldn't be worse than Mila's infinite because she would have to repeat a sequence rather than a single move which introduces the possibility of player error letting the other guy escape. 'Appealing to extremes' is considered a logical fallacy. Please be more realistic in your future attempts at formulating an argument.
Realistically it would be more along the lines of people saying that Mila sucks after Team Ninja nerfed the fuck out of her takedowns (i.e. wrecking a tool that was central to the character's playstyle; vanilla 1.03 patch; and her 1P too if anyone cares). And you know what? They'd be right. Online warriors bitched incessantly about a being taken down repeatedly (avoiding the takedowns requires actual knowledge of the character but apparently that's too much work) and the move(s) where made not so good. Sure you can play Mila as more of a striker than a grappler but IMO the current version of the character is flat out worse than the initial one. It also didn't help that she was one of a few characters in vanilla who could perform the glitchy/glitchy looking wavedash and they took that away too without compensating elsewhere which left her as one of the slowest characters in the game in terms of movement relative to her weight class. At this point with Mila as currently designed I would say that anyone trying to get good with her is wasting their time.
First off this is assuming that she's even broken. Big assumption. Secondly this is a valid design philosophy. Leave things that are good alone and make the things that are bad better (in the simplest terms). This is just a difference of opinion on how to approach game balance.
Actually as far as I can tell they gave Mila feints because someone said "Ah fuck it". Her changes after vanilla 1.03 are extensive and destructive to what was ostensibly a mid-tier character.
If you wanted to compensate for completely eliminating Rachel's okizeme game you're going to need to significantly improve her in other areas. Like say giving her guard breaks that don't suck. Giving her tracking moves that don't suck (say by mapping her BT 2H+K to not be back turn only). Some ability to high and/or low crush. Better movement options (+speed; new tricks w/ command sidestep would be cool too). Probably some other stuff too because, to me, it's already becoming apparently that outside of the post force tech situation that her moveset and movement are...lacking.
Drake Aldan
Well-Known Member
... because she is mai waifu?
but really though, I am thinking if she is nerfed in the coming patch, she will probably be relegated to "beginner's heavy" status. She's relatively easy to use, and 4T only does 10 points less than Desert Falcon. (Easy tick throws?)
As you've said she doesn't have a lot of tools, but she still has the heavyweight damage reduction, and playing her will probably help to grow your defense/holding skills.
Ye, I know, I'm being optimistic...
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
The fact that people who main Rachel think she doesn't have a lot of tools shows how clueless they are.
+ She's a heavy weight.
+ i11/i13/14 She basically has Helena's poke speed.
+ High damaging combo's.
+ Plenty of safe strings.
+ Two running attacks, one which is -2 the other which is +5 on block.
+ +15/+11 FT's, just like Vanilla Helena except almost x3 better.
+ An OH from her jab string.
+ In strings lows that are +5 on NH, lows of that speed are almost always -4 on NH.
+ Can air throw from the most pathetic launch height.
IF she gets a nerf it will only be a reduction to how much frame advantage she gets from her FT and that's it. She will still be piss easy to use, just basic launch > air grab > FT rinse and repeat till the match is over. The only difference will be that you might have to make better reads after FT, that's it.
Characters like her shouldn't be top tier in the first place. Why should someone learn a character with between 100 and 200 moves and multiple stances just to have someone pick a character like her, learn one combo and be a massive threat as a result? As soon as you launch the opponent the match should be over, she has such a massive advantage that as long as you have even slight oki skills the opponent should never have the opportunity to recover. This would be fine if she had to work hard to get the opponent in the air in the first place but she doesn't.
If players who picked Rachel up want to believe that suddenly they have becomes top tier players that's fine but don't sit about and say she is just "meh" and that people have no valid complaints about her as a character, it shows your bias.
+ She's a heavy weight.
+ i11/i13/14 She basically has Helena's poke speed.
+ High damaging combo's.
+ Plenty of safe strings.
+ Two running attacks, one which is -2 the other which is +5 on block.
+ +15/+11 FT's, just like Vanilla Helena except almost x3 better.
+ An OH from her jab string.
+ In strings lows that are +5 on NH, lows of that speed are almost always -4 on NH.
+ Can air throw from the most pathetic launch height.
IF she gets a nerf it will only be a reduction to how much frame advantage she gets from her FT and that's it. She will still be piss easy to use, just basic launch > air grab > FT rinse and repeat till the match is over. The only difference will be that you might have to make better reads after FT, that's it.
Characters like her shouldn't be top tier in the first place. Why should someone learn a character with between 100 and 200 moves and multiple stances just to have someone pick a character like her, learn one combo and be a massive threat as a result? As soon as you launch the opponent the match should be over, she has such a massive advantage that as long as you have even slight oki skills the opponent should never have the opportunity to recover. This would be fine if she had to work hard to get the opponent in the air in the first place but she doesn't.
If players who picked Rachel up want to believe that suddenly they have becomes top tier players that's fine but don't sit about and say she is just "meh" and that people have no valid complaints about her as a character, it shows your bias.
Like I said before, the low kick and the OH from her jabs aren't a mixup. Just crouch block. Her mid option puts the opponent at advantageous spacing. Free cancel options are slow enough to be reactable. It's a lot weaker than say Kokoro's PPT, even though it is an OH.
Her running attacks are not good. The majority of the cast has a better way of getting in.
Teaching backwards is +11? From what setup? Do you even know?
Her loop does like 80 damage. That's a stun launch from Momiji.
I don't even play Rachel. The last time I went labbing with her was a week after 5U came out. I play Kokoro. Rachel's the last character that I know how to play that I would consider playing. She is so simple that everyone should know how to play her, though.
Her running attacks are not good. The majority of the cast has a better way of getting in.
Teaching backwards is +11? From what setup? Do you even know?
Her loop does like 80 damage. That's a stun launch from Momiji.
I don't even play Rachel. The last time I went labbing with her was a week after 5U came out. I play Kokoro. Rachel's the last character that I know how to play that I would consider playing. She is so simple that everyone should know how to play her, though.
Lyn
Member
Aside from stating the obvious, most of which you say is true, Rachel pumps damage from one throw.
We know this; there's absolutely nothing wrong with the saltiness that people has with her throw damage. However, most people here minus a few don't even care that she's at a disadvantage once her string can't reach you. She can't poke, She has no safe option of getting in. Force HER to be reckless, Don't throw yourself in her arms. CROUCH the throw!
If you know all what she wants is to stun > launch > FT, then why are you falling for the same setups?
I'm not saying no one here should speak about changes; i'm just saying to at least understand the character before you force TN's hand.