Shinigamimatt
Active Member
No, I want my Hitomi better. That better be Dr. Dogg's say >_<
Dead Or Alive 5 E3 Build Experience
- Thread starter Skilletor
- Start date
MrMoon360
Well-Known Member
That is exactly whats going to happen if TN listens to him.
Right now, I can tolerate him, because I believe his fame is in vain. When the tournament scene starts with a solid DOA 5, he will quickly be "overthrown" by someone simply better.
Master_Thespian
Active Member
Manny doesn't give a fuck. Lots of people complain about him for various reasons but he keeps on truckin'. He won't be sad about anyone blaming him for how DOA5 turns out when he's cashing his tourney checks.
all of a small pot > none of a big pot
It's not that hard to understand.
-There is a very simple solution that can be made that should not take that much development time and resources from Team Ninja. On average there are 85 strikes(strings) per character. If Team Ninja allocated 5% of those strikes(strings) to stuns, it would average out to 17 stunning attacks/strings per character. This will significantly reduce the amount of attacks that do cause a Stun on Counter Strike. These 17 or so strikes can be further broken down into a different Stun Class. Each particular class can have special attributes associated with it. Staggers can be quick stuns that can be either held or Slow escaped(Struggled, Shaken) out of, and on block cause minor disadvantage(0 to -4). Stumbles can cause a more deeper stun while providing *11+ of in-holdable frames(*The amount of frame advantage would be based upon Character Jab speed, so that at most a Jab is guaranteed). Doing anything other than a Jab would allow your opponent to Slow escape your follow up attack. On Block, Stumbles would be at mid disadvantage(-4 to -7). Crumples, like the wall crumple would be in-holdable and in-slow escapable. Would Guarantee any attack up to CB hit frames. On Block, Crumples would be heavily punished -8 to -18. These 3 classes can be dived into the 17 or so stunning attacks, with 5-6 strikes in each class.
D
Deleted member 473
Guest
Which will be ME! Muahahahahah. *villianous laugh while playing as zack..*
Blaze reppin that sports bra lol.good luck to you sounds like your gonna need it based on what ive heard about Zack this go around
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
That would require a complete rebalance of every character in the game. Not exactly a quick fix...
DR2K
Well-Known Member
Most selfish person in fighting game history if true. But if TN is going to one player for advice instead of the community then they're pretty fucking stupid. I will not be buying this if it ends up Paper Rock slightly shitty scissors the sequal.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Sounds great... also sounds like a totally different game. Honestly I'd have to play that for a good long while before I could even pass judgment on such a system. And sadly there is really no way they would have time to go through every character and balance it all out.
I also find it incredibly doubtful his royal majesty would endorse such terms, though you definitely get points for having your own vision of things that isn't insidiously broken (or at least doesn't sound like it on paper).
@Bryan I said that based on what I have seen and heard at E3 it seems that the only thing on the table is the possibility of adding DOAD hit statuses. Stop making it seem like I have the POWER to change this game that dramatically. To even think that, makes me laugh! *ROFL* Team Ninja could have so many plans that even You and I do not know about. Again i give my suggestions just like you do. At the end of the day Im not programming/Developing this game. They are but good try on trying to make it seem like i do. Because obviously im just that powerful right? wow. Some of you are just running out of stuff to say seriously.
I want a great game that i can play for years too. You can say whatever you want Bryan but I now see how you are. You are quite the painter I must say. If they do actually trust me more than you Bryan, that should raise an eyebrow to everyone here. You've worked with them in the past on reviews, guides or what not but you are implying they trust me more? Lets face it, you don't plan to stay with DOA after launch. Bryan, I dont find it one bit surprising you are here now to be honest! Some of these folks don't know you like I do Bryan but I already know that once your done with the strategy guide and the game releases you will disappear. You did this with DOA2U and with DOA4 and even when people played DOA3(.1), it didn't matter. DOA5 wont be an exception im sure, even if it plays exactly how you want it! We both know that.
@rikuto I dont understand why you want to limit the attacker for successfully counter attacking, throwing or holding someone correctly. I'm trying to give you one of the best ways to limit the hold and punish bad players, while still keeping DOA true to itself and having CB still available at the end of thresdhold. But now you want to give people more opportunities to defend themselves even after they were read correctly? This forum has completely flipped I see.
I dont understand how people say I want to win all the tourneys because it caters to me. That's ridiculous honestly. If someone can play the same game and used those same tactics to win against me still, then how am i insuring a sure victory here? lol It would be a different story if i had a character that no one could play with or against until they played me in the tournament. Now that would be a way to win for sure but that is not the case.
I'm done posting in threads here. I'll let you guys believe what you want. I made an article based on my experiences at E3 and expressed how I felt about the build. The game is feeling and looking better and better but there is still much more to test and see. If anyone has questions about the event still, just blow my PM box up here or any of the other two DOA sites. For those that want to hate me for whatever reason, I love you. For those that can clearly see and understand that I am also one of these "Vets", I appreciate the support and for you guys taking the time to at least reach out.
MASTER
I want a great game that i can play for years too. You can say whatever you want Bryan but I now see how you are. You are quite the painter I must say. If they do actually trust me more than you Bryan, that should raise an eyebrow to everyone here. You've worked with them in the past on reviews, guides or what not but you are implying they trust me more? Lets face it, you don't plan to stay with DOA after launch. Bryan, I dont find it one bit surprising you are here now to be honest! Some of these folks don't know you like I do Bryan but I already know that once your done with the strategy guide and the game releases you will disappear. You did this with DOA2U and with DOA4 and even when people played DOA3(.1), it didn't matter. DOA5 wont be an exception im sure, even if it plays exactly how you want it! We both know that.
@rikuto I dont understand why you want to limit the attacker for successfully counter attacking, throwing or holding someone correctly. I'm trying to give you one of the best ways to limit the hold and punish bad players, while still keeping DOA true to itself and having CB still available at the end of thresdhold. But now you want to give people more opportunities to defend themselves even after they were read correctly? This forum has completely flipped I see.
I dont understand how people say I want to win all the tourneys because it caters to me. That's ridiculous honestly. If someone can play the same game and used those same tactics to win against me still, then how am i insuring a sure victory here? lol It would be a different story if i had a character that no one could play with or against until they played me in the tournament. Now that would be a way to win for sure but that is not the case.
I'm done posting in threads here. I'll let you guys believe what you want. I made an article based on my experiences at E3 and expressed how I felt about the build. The game is feeling and looking better and better but there is still much more to test and see. If anyone has questions about the event still, just blow my PM box up here or any of the other two DOA sites. For those that want to hate me for whatever reason, I love you. For those that can clearly see and understand that I am also one of these "Vets", I appreciate the support and for you guys taking the time to at least reach out.
MASTER
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
I'm only going by your own words. You continually state that you talked with Team Ninja about this and they agree with that. You also like to claim that you know more about the game than others. Remember your white outfit comments before E3 and your statement that you know more than I think you know?
If you do not have any sway over Team Ninja, then stop making comments like you do. Simple as that...
Up until now, everything you've said I've had a fact-based reply to counter your statements. Once I have countered you, you ignore that and move on to another topic to try to prove your point. Now that you've run out of topics to move to, you're reaching beyond debating the game and trying to delve into my mind. Let me set you straight once again.
1. You do not know me... at all. We are not friends now and never have been. We do not talk outside of DOA message boards, and I avoid speaking to you whenever possible unless it's on a DOA forum or work requires that I speak to you.
2. I played DOA2U until my Xbox broke. I played DOA4 until it was no longer fun. I even traveled to your tournament to support the scene. When I could not take the game any longer, I stopped playing and moved on to far better games. I did not play DOA3.1 because I had no desire to mod my Xbox just to play one game against the computer.
3. If I had no plans to play DOA5, then I wouldn't care about how the game turns out. TTT2 releases two weeks before DOA5. I will have a competitive fighting game to play come September, no matter what. I would like that game to be DOA5 (even if it's alongside TTT2), but I have no desire to play a game that forces me to guess at every turn. As of E3, I'd say DOA5 is about 75% to where it needs to be for me to want to play it at a competitive level. If it doesn't go that extra 25%, I won't be playing it. That's no secret.
4. Notice how I'm not the only person saying things about you? Why aren't you addressing any of the others? What happened to your article on Hayabusa you were going to write up? What happened to all of the good you were going to do after E3? I don't have to "paint" anything. You do that all by yourself.
You are very good at playing the DOA stun game and forced guessing system. This is why you excel at DOA and don't perform well at any other fighting games. If DOA5 plays anything like DOA4 (which it currently does), you'll have an advantage over anyone who excels at other fighters and wants to play DOA.
As I said, go to Evo and make it out of your pool in any game that isn't DOA. You'd learn a lot.
I don't think anyone truly hates you. That's just a waste. People dislike your behavior, and posts like these only help to back up that feeling. You said in the past that you want to change that, but you continue to act like you have been for years.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
It hasn't flipped at all... I don't want the game to play randomly. Not in the past when it was based around countering, or in the future if its based around OP offense where I sneeze once and everyone loses 40% lifebar in open space without having to plan ahead or do anything relevant. Unequal options are required in order to maintain Game Theory. If one option is drastically better than every other option, we have the basis for a legit mindgame.
But if all I have to do is fart twice to kill you anywhere on the stage... where is the mindgame? Where is the logic? Every launch option I'm going to use will hurt enough that everyone will just panic and counter randomly instead of logically trying to work their way out of the situation. We've already gone in depth over how easily the delayable strings allow for super easy stuns and, by proxy, really big damage for pretty much doing nothing strategic at all.
Of course I'm not looking to strictly limit the attacker Manny... I want to give them options. Good ones that reward smart play and overcoming their opponent in a logical manner. I liked the fact that I could anticipate a person fearing 3k above everything else, and then hit them with something else while abusing that fear. That's how you're supposed to play a fighting game. You need a trump card thats stronger than everything else.
Do you even realize how much damage you're going to be able to do with a max launch height off of the first hit? Do you realize how little you have to work for that damage? There is a serious problem with that. This isn't like DOA 2 where stuns were more limited and you took a major risk anytime you threw out a launch because of how silly the counter system was. I know thats your favorite game of the series, but you cannot justify that kind of damage with the current stun mechanics.
It's rather silly, there won't even be any incentive to punish counters with high-counter throws for like 85% of the cast. Your most basic juggle will just end up doing more damage anyway, and if you somehow get countered who cares its a slap on the wrist. You have to be able to see the problem with that.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
But... .. .But.. .. . You're our community representative. You're allowed to walk out on us when people don't agree with you? Damn. This is the most I've ever seen you here in over 2 years this site has been up. We just want to talk and build a better game COLLECTIVELY. Resorting to talk to you in the shadows (PM) does not help.
So, theoretically, say if we went to all of the other DOA forums and do what we are doing here with you, arguing/debating you know, discussing the game as hardcore competitors. Would you leave the community? I am pretty sure you'd just ban the bad seeds from TKP, but what about DOAW and the masses that are a part of the community that don't see eye-to eye with you some/most of the time?
I am only asking this because of the last paragraph in your post does not sit too well with me. I see this fickle behavior coming from a leader towards his/her community and it raises my type of theory. This was not your first time saying something like this, when a debate turned argument comes up from the things you say.
If you choose to function with your fellow players (as a leader) in this manner, wow. I will be PM'ing you soon. I do have something to bring up to you.
AKNova7
Active Member
Unequal options help, sure, but there's more than just damage as a way to make that inequality. To be completely honest, mindgames after hit confirmations just make for a messy game.
D
Deleted member 473
Guest
Master I have nothing against you. You rep DOA... In fact you are the MASTER. BUT if we can't get along to make a better game, this franchise will be nothing more than ice cream- it will continue to melt away till the very last drop. We don't want that, and I wish all of us can bring ideas together instead of fighting. You just dont know how much this is pissing me off! PLEASE everyone get along so we can make this game AWESOME! Cause I know we can do it...
I know I haven't done much..... but you guys? Yall are smart as hell! I know ya'll couldnt sink this low man....
You just dont know how much this is pissing me off! PLEASE everyone get along so we can make this game AWESOME! Cause I know we can do it...I know I haven't done much..... but you guys? Yall are smart as hell! I know ya'll couldnt sink this low man....
DrDogg said:
-Well, it would relatively be a quick fix. The formula for how to create such a system is 1/2 way present within Doa2's stun system. Itagaki unknowingly stumbled across a great stun game formula with Doa2. In fact, his team at the time was able to create Hitomi(A Doa3 character) within this system! So paring down the amount of stuns per character would be the easy part.
-The more time consuming segment would be the delegation of which strike will result in what stun on counter strike. A solution for this would be the reintroduction of strike(attack) class( http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/doa3-counter-attack-table-frame-data.22/) . Making a particular class of strikes do a specific stun would be the most easiest and effective solution. On the offensive side, this would get players to actually think about what strike they want to use on counter strike. On the defensive side, players would know which attack class they would like to defend against the most(crumples). Allowing for logical deductions to be made without the random guessing.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
The idea sounds good VP but how to communicate to the player the logic of what attacks use stun in such a system? Just make them learn the specifics by character, by wrote? I think if there's a certain logic to it (like at the end of strings, at a certain hit level... something) that can be applied across the board, you maintain the accessible learning curve and keep knowledge gained learning one character applicable to learning others.
All for character individuality, but overly specific data can cause a lot of issues.
In a way Critical Bursts seem to be a clear response from TN on this issue by adding a strike that will result in a powerful stun, and its different for each character, but you know to look for it, you can understand the rules and effect of it, it has a nice visual and audio cue to make it clear.
Earlier in this thread I said it's worth finding out what Shimbori's perspective was on the DOAD stun system and launch heights that Manny brought up, but I think we might already know the answer, it seems clear that CB is his response to that. This is how they have tried to bridge the two systems.
It's also important to note that CB is a new mechanic that TN brought to the table themselves without player input. Yes, it clearly addresses problems that were raised through player input, but its a good example of why we shouldn't be SO worried about who is telling them what, and stop attributing too much precedence over what one particular player might say to them.
Seeing as CB is their interpretation of our feedback in one area of the game, I feel pretty good about Shimbori's considered and yet creative, and DOA-styled ways of solving problems.
Does that mean we leave our feedback and concerns there? No, but lets remember its being filtered through a sensible producer who knows what he wants to do.
Quickly addressing a couple of other specifics, Manny said:
DrDogg was concerned if none of the above change, we'll have a problem in the game. I think that is true, but that you don't have to have all of these change, and you don't have to have them change completely.
I think all the above is ok so long as its not all or nothing.
Delayable strings, for example, are in VF, just much more selectively. For DOA, if you tightened them up and removed them from SOME strings, it would be a big revision but simple to do. Delaying the end of a string is really the most important thing, and thats the slowest, most punishable/noticable part - so they could reduce delayable strings from early parts of strings in particular. I'm not so worried about this part of the game, though.
Holds out of stun: so long as damage is low and holds are kept only with feet on ground and punishable recovery, we're in a good place - I don't think this needs much further change. So long as sit down stuns are viable. So that means the last part is most important.
Unshakeable sit down stuns: there should certainly be a few of these, even if the shake-ability is only removed if you get a successful counter hit. You have to have multiple ways to start an attack sequence or setup that reduces the opponents options more effectively, the more succesfully you land each part of your setup. CB, Launcher, Sit down stuns, and some Unshakeable stuns (maybe attached to counter-hit sit downs) would be a good way to achieve this.
They seem to be on the right track here so I hope we learn more about this part of the game soon.
By the way, it's been good to see this discussion conducted in such a civil manner. Kudos to Rikuto bringing logical arguments without falling to the old dark side of attacking the person rather than the ideas presented
All for character individuality, but overly specific data can cause a lot of issues.
In a way Critical Bursts seem to be a clear response from TN on this issue by adding a strike that will result in a powerful stun, and its different for each character, but you know to look for it, you can understand the rules and effect of it, it has a nice visual and audio cue to make it clear.
Earlier in this thread I said it's worth finding out what Shimbori's perspective was on the DOAD stun system and launch heights that Manny brought up, but I think we might already know the answer, it seems clear that CB is his response to that. This is how they have tried to bridge the two systems.
It's also important to note that CB is a new mechanic that TN brought to the table themselves without player input. Yes, it clearly addresses problems that were raised through player input, but its a good example of why we shouldn't be SO worried about who is telling them what, and stop attributing too much precedence over what one particular player might say to them.
Seeing as CB is their interpretation of our feedback in one area of the game, I feel pretty good about Shimbori's considered and yet creative, and DOA-styled ways of solving problems.
Does that mean we leave our feedback and concerns there? No, but lets remember its being filtered through a sensible producer who knows what he wants to do.
Quickly addressing a couple of other specifics, Manny said:
DrDogg was concerned if none of the above change, we'll have a problem in the game. I think that is true, but that you don't have to have all of these change, and you don't have to have them change completely.
I think all the above is ok so long as its not all or nothing.
Delayable strings, for example, are in VF, just much more selectively. For DOA, if you tightened them up and removed them from SOME strings, it would be a big revision but simple to do. Delaying the end of a string is really the most important thing, and thats the slowest, most punishable/noticable part - so they could reduce delayable strings from early parts of strings in particular. I'm not so worried about this part of the game, though.
Holds out of stun: so long as damage is low and holds are kept only with feet on ground and punishable recovery, we're in a good place - I don't think this needs much further change. So long as sit down stuns are viable. So that means the last part is most important.
Unshakeable sit down stuns: there should certainly be a few of these, even if the shake-ability is only removed if you get a successful counter hit. You have to have multiple ways to start an attack sequence or setup that reduces the opponents options more effectively, the more succesfully you land each part of your setup. CB, Launcher, Sit down stuns, and some Unshakeable stuns (maybe attached to counter-hit sit downs) would be a good way to achieve this.
They seem to be on the right track here so I hope we learn more about this part of the game soon.
By the way, it's been good to see this discussion conducted in such a civil manner. Kudos to Rikuto bringing logical arguments without falling to the old dark side of attacking the person rather than the ideas presented
RikWeaN
Member
About sitdown stuns and unholdable stuns in general :
I am the only one thinking removing universal OHs is actually a step backwards ? I mean, ok DOA4 did a lot of things wrong, but the OH mechanics did add depth to the game, in my opinion.
Say the opponent decided to slow escape the stun instead of just counter holding, you could always go for a OH punish even if they tried to land a strike. Also you only risked getting hit in Neutral Hit if they managed to do so, which was pretty fair to me.
I'm kinda disappointed they would return to specific characters having (slow) OHs instead of having a universal OH system. DOA had finally gotten true grabs.
I am the only one thinking removing universal OHs is actually a step backwards ? I mean, ok DOA4 did a lot of things wrong, but the OH mechanics did add depth to the game, in my opinion.
Say the opponent decided to slow escape the stun instead of just counter holding, you could always go for a OH punish even if they tried to land a strike. Also you only risked getting hit in Neutral Hit if they managed to do so, which was pretty fair to me.
I'm kinda disappointed they would return to specific characters having (slow) OHs instead of having a universal OH system. DOA had finally gotten true grabs.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
OH's are not true grabs...They are throws with a hold property that should 100% stay unique to grapplers.
OSTCarmine
Active Member
FC = freecancel... im assuming here that CBs are single moves and not part of any strings, so i added the FC to clarify this.
I had no idea you could do 2 sitdowns without having the opponent fall down, but the Sitdown into CB was obvious so i did not mention it in that example i made. I do get what you are trying to say though, and now i kinda wish there were a couple more setups like this. I dont think that being able to SE out of that is SUCH a big disagvantage, since the SE is obvious enough to spot and the person using the SE has limited options after the SE. Throw punishment should be par for the course here, not that Kokoro has great throws though.
another example (i prefer practical examples cuz the discussions on here sometimes get bitchy lol)
lets say Lee gets CB in 3
- CH off 6PP counter, F+K, CB
if my opponent SE's im not going to have enough time to launch with 33P, but could i get off with either 7K or 9K? i actually prefer following a Sitdown with 214P (i looks awesome and the bounce damage is good on dangerzones), but its also not very fast. If neither 7K or 9K are fast enough, but a throw is fair game then i can live with SE out of sitdown