Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
Also, this is SO MUCH BETTER and more competitive than games that do it the other way in my opinion. It's so refreshing to play under this throw system compared to SF, SC, etc.
Dead Or Alive 5 E3 Build Experience
- Thread starter Skilletor
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OSTCarmine
Active Member
hey rikuto, i have a few questions to ask you regarding a 20min vid you made with Cyberevil a while back (just b4 E3) is there a thread discussing that particular clip or can i just ask you here? or maybe somebody can move this to an appropriate place for me... pretty plz
OSTCarmine
Active Member
thank you wah
-You know me Rikuto, I get these moments of pure clarity where I see the solution amongst disarray! This solution I believe to be the best there is for Doa. I say this because it keeps Doa, well, Doa while providing logical fighting game theory! I wouldn't say that it would be a totally different game, but a logical evolution. It seems like Team Ninja get little pieces of the formula correct(Doa2 limited amount of stuns, Doa3 true combos and guaranteed damage from wall crumple, Doa4 Crumples providing guaranteed damage to those players who are patient enough to either punish by Free stepping to the opponent's back+ back turned juggle or waiting for a hold attempt and High Counter throwing).
-It dawned on me that Bezerk was 100% correct in stating we should be looking at VF as our inspiration and not so much other fighters. Every other fighter use a different form of logic than that of VF, yet Doa at its core share VF's logic, however it was broken(more so broken with Doa4 and passable with Doa1-3). The developers strove for a different type of fighter(which they achieved), but didn't adjust the logic of the game to the changes that were made. The Adjustments I suggest goes back to the core of what the series derived from, a logical fighter that makes perfect sense(VF). If Stuns were implemented the way I suggest, It will give the player another layer to why he/she would use what move in which scenario. Each type of stun(Stagger, Stumble, Crumple) would have a significant use and easily understandable risk/reward factor. Even considering what DrDogg have stated about throws being the major form of punishment, suggested that crumpling attacks on hit receive guaranteed punishment, but on guard/block would be attack punishment(possible CB/PB).
-Lol, I thought about this very hard Bezerk. We do not want a repeat of Doa4's terrible homogeneous move application(of offensive holds), nor do we want it to be too difficult for the average gamer to grasp. This is why I brought up Doa3's attack/strike class. Not so that we can use it as an exact replica, but as an template of how the "Refined" stun system could be implemented. If stuns(staggers, stumbles and crumbles) could be based around a specific strike class, it would be easily understood which class of strike will result in which particular stun. Once again referencing VF's cohesive design while remaining completely Doa.
play! Trust me, I thought about all of this thoroughly. Lmao, I remember telling Tom Brady that I for seen SE being a powerful defensive tool. He didnt believe me, and look how prominent it became in competitive play.
Keylay
Well-Known Member
They need to add a safe option for the attacker to use against an opponent in critical stun. One way to do this would be to make jabs unholdable. So if the defender counters a jab, they just do a small evade and the attacker still has the offense and can continue into a string. Jabs also shouldn't re-stun a person in critical stun but should reset them back to normal state.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
DoAD did that and it was annoying as hell. No thanks.
Keylay
Well-Known Member
Yes it did but it didn't have unholdable jabs. Jabs would have to reset opponents to normal state as a trade off for being unholdable. Otherwise, you would just use jabs to re-stun the opponent instead of other attacks because jabs would be safe. If they did a low hold then the jab would whiff but most jabs can be followed up with a mid attack so you'd be be able to punish the opponent. I also don't like re-stunning opponents in critical state. It just prolongs the guessing game. I would be happy if moves couldn't re-stun an opponent in critical state unless they were part of the same string but I would would be happy with the DOA2 stun threshold.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
In SC, most throws are not catch throws. They simply adhere to the frame data system. If you use a throw that's i17, it will lose to an attack that executes faster (assuming both are executed at the exact same time). Throws do not beat attacks in SC like an OH beats attacks in DOA.
I also don't see how VF plays differently than other 3D fighters. There are minor things such as throw breaking and evasion that are different, but the fundamental strategies are the same. I can shift from VF to SC to Tekken with only a little warm-up to adjust (assuming I have already played each game extensively). Whenever I would play DOA4 after playing any other 3D fighter, I was lost.
From a competitive standpoint, VF and DOA (not including DOA5) are very, very different. More so than any other 3D fighter.
OSTCarmine
Active Member
i think it just comes down to uniqueness vs standardization. a game can be both unique, and still adhere to standards and customs applied by other games in the same genre. the more informed players on FSD realize the need for a few standards to be applied to DOA. the guys griping about the game losing it's unique flavour - well that is a genuine concern for them that they dont want their game to end up like a clone of another game... i get that kinda.
i know this is not "strictly" on topic, im just trying to point it out
something that IS on topic - when switching games you will only be able to adjust between games which are similar if you knew beforehand that they were. if you did not know then you would play differently, trying to figure out the new game instead of applying old knowledge. conversely, if you had been told two games were alike, and they were NOT, then you would be missing out on a bunch of mechanics from one game trying to play it like another. i hope this does not sound too confusing lol
i know this is not "strictly" on topic, im just trying to point it out
something that IS on topic - when switching games you will only be able to adjust between games which are similar if you knew beforehand that they were. if you did not know then you would play differently, trying to figure out the new game instead of applying old knowledge. conversely, if you had been told two games were alike, and they were NOT, then you would be missing out on a bunch of mechanics from one game trying to play it like another. i hope this does not sound too confusing lol
You're playing those other games wrong, chief.
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DR2K
Well-Known Member
Ok we'll call it yomi.
OSTCarmine
Active Member
lol, you cant call yomi guessing. its the exact opposite
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
Yomi and guessing are the same thing. It's just that "yomi" comes off as an educated response, while "guessing" makes it seem more random.
DriftSlave
Active Member
the term yomi shoryu says it all.....
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
There is a fine art to on-the-fly Yomi development. And it's fucking stressful. I hate it.
Normally I'll go in with a pre-conceived battle plan using specific mixup patterns that was built over a long period of studying typical player behavior of that skill range. If its getting stopped enough, I'll switch out to a different set of mixups.
Thank god most people aren't good enough to require actual on-the-fly move-by-move adaptation. That IS what keeps me from sitting at the top though. It's also the reason Xdest would just sit on my face every time we played, because he was one of the few people who could pull off that kind of adaptation in a legit manner very quickly.
I should probably start looking into pattern recognition exercises to see if I can speed up my mental response time.
Normally I'll go in with a pre-conceived battle plan using specific mixup patterns that was built over a long period of studying typical player behavior of that skill range. If its getting stopped enough, I'll switch out to a different set of mixups.
Thank god most people aren't good enough to require actual on-the-fly move-by-move adaptation. That IS what keeps me from sitting at the top though. It's also the reason Xdest would just sit on my face every time we played, because he was one of the few people who could pull off that kind of adaptation in a legit manner very quickly.
I should probably start looking into pattern recognition exercises to see if I can speed up my mental response time.