DOA: Flaws and Tournament Viability
- Thread starter BlackOrochi
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R4712-VR88
Active Member
I've thought about DOA4 lately. And each time that I think about how good DOA4 was going to be and then it became terrible on launch, I can't help but shead a tear or two. Itagaki's one really bad decision killed the game and its community. We were all seriously robbed of what would have possibly been the best DOA game at the time.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
...and it still didn't have a tournament scene, nor was it tested by more than a handful of players. I've been told by several people that while 3.1 was the best DOA, it still wasn't really "good".
You must not be paying much attention. I'm definitely not the most negative person around here, and most of my negativity is a direct response to posts from you, Manny and Cow. Coincidence? I think not.
Did you miss the multiple posts in which I detail all of the problems very specifically? >_>
I've said time and time again that all of the information we have post-E3 is inconclusive.
That said, I'm going to be vocal about what I believe are the issues. Which is what VPai and a few others don't understand. If come Sept 25, the game is tournament-viable, even if I don't like the game, you won't see me being vocally negative about it. However, at this point, there's NOTHING to lose by being vocal about what I'd like to see changed.
Not matter what we end up with, I'd much rather be able to say that I did all I could to improve the game, instead of saying that I just took a seat and hoped for the best. You don't get this kind of chance at feedback very often and I'm going to do everything I can to make DOA5 better. If that means pissing off VPai, I don't really care. Making the game good is far more important to me than keeping him happy.
You can determine if the proper tools are present pretty easily. Put a seasoned Tekken player in front of DOA4 for the first time and it won't take long for him to tell you the game isn't tournament-worthy.
Now, even if the proper tools are there, it may still not be tournament-worthy. But at least we'd be giving it a chance based on what we know at the beginning.
I will personally see that the game gets a chance. But that won't mean much if we don't have a solid game, or if the DOA community fails to travel again.
Based on the E3 build and videos we've seen since...
- Guessing is still heavily favored on offense and defense.
- Counterholds are still very, very prominent during stun. The changes have a bigger impact on the neutral game.
- The defender still gets a chance to flip the situation after making a mistake.
- Stuns are still too heavily present.
- 90% of the attacks in the game are unsafe.
- Strings can still be delayed massively.
- It's still impossible to see a free cancel, giving the offensive player a sense of false frame advantage.
That's a quick and dirty list, and some of those issues are more important than others, but you get the idea.
Skilletor
Active Member
I'm just as negative about DoA5 as Dr. Dogg.
The game, as is, and with the changes in these recent videos (seriously, why remove an unholdable stun...speaks volumes about the team's direction).
I think the game will be fun, in the end, but not worth trying to play competitively.
The problems with the game have been beaten into the ground repeatedly. To say Dr. Dogg hasn't explained the issues and is just giving "blanket statements" shows willful ignorance.
The game, as is, and with the changes in these recent videos (seriously, why remove an unholdable stun...speaks volumes about the team's direction).
I think the game will be fun, in the end, but not worth trying to play competitively.
The problems with the game have been beaten into the ground repeatedly. To say Dr. Dogg hasn't explained the issues and is just giving "blanket statements" shows willful ignorance.
R4712-VR88
Active Member
Then lets hope you succeed.
-Made this big ass post and it wont matter. At the end of the day, players are here because they want the best doa. There are proper ways to go about it, than stepping on other peoples toes to get your point across. Myself and others will be at GVN scrutinizing the hell out of the latest Doa5 build. If there are things that should be fixed, trust, we are going to make it very loud and clear to them. No one who really care about Doa competitively want another Doa4.
R4712-VR88
Active Member
Well then... lets hope you succeed! lol!
-If that is the case, than I am really concerned. More players need to be playing this game to give the appropriate feed back.
-Well, if these things are still currently present to overwhelming degree's than it needs to be fixed right now. No one will play Doa5 with the game going in this direction, no matter how good the other things are. I was sure these things would have been eventually addressed, but I guess I was wrong.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
Let me say I'm with you. I agree with you. I want the same changes you want (we only differ on the nuances - the degrees). We should ALSO be laying the groundwork to attend tournaments - lets plan for it to be a good game, because an anemic community response will hurt the game more than player distaste for certain mechanics (look at SF4, it wasn't universally loved at launch, but people got behind it)
The point I make is lets not HOPE for the best, but as you have, and I respect this very much, we should be vocal and clear about the systemic issues while being constructive on the community side. They need to listen to this section of the voices giving feedback.
So, for simplicity's sake - I want to say I endorse everything you tell Team Ninja.
You should give your feedback with the voice of the community behind you. I know many others have said this, so lets all make it clear to support the ironing out of the last few major gripes. (Lets look at them below)
I urge everyone to be clear and get behind this.
As I said above - we need to engender an attitude of active interest in tournaments. Even if you are a casual player, it's how a fighting game community is noticed and grows its members. Casual or tournament player, we all want more people to play and enjoy our game.
THIS is how you support YOUR game. Go to tournaments. Tell existing tournaments you want to play DOA5. Offer to run DOA5 at your local events. And just as importantly - go there now, play the other games. Support VF5, it's our closest community. Play whatever games are there, people will be more respectful and interested in coming across if you do.
This is the point I want to address earlier - yes, we want a good game, but we need to be more active about playing it. Lets be pragmatic and positive at the same time.
Shall we make another consolidated feedback thread, and be very focused on this?
I think move safety and unholdable stuns are the two most important things to maintain, plus the ability to CB into CB or CB from a sit down or other difficult stun. At least one of the stun types should be unshakeable (SE).
String delay, I actually want to keep but agree it can be tightened. Free cancelling is just part of 3D fighters, my only real point of disagreement. My thought here is to play a lot more VF and argue Team Ninja from that perspective, as that is the best model for them and a clear inspiration.
Gill Hustle
Well-Known Member
Clearly I haven't been paying attention, now I get what the fuss is about.
Was this evident in ALL the released vids after E3 or just a few.
I know that might be hard to answer, but since they are doing balance vids, is it possible that this was done just for that purpose?
Skilletor
Active Member
I believe this is the first video of a build more recent than the one present at e3.
d3v
Well-Known Member
But for the most part, throw teching in Marvel is so hard (due to the really small window) that the mechanic might as not well be there. You actually have to input the break on prediction and not on reaction.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Seriously? This is already being done in DOA5 Remaining Issues thread. I would link it but you've posted in there, a few times. Even in your first feedback thread, the major things that were listed were ignored. Also, was that even sent to them, I know people have been verbal about it for damn sure.
Berzerk, if a game sucks, you can't rally anyone between heaven or hell to play it competitively. Casuals are not going to travel for shit because they feel they can get everything right in the comfort of their home, I know because I have spoken to a shitload of them (on the traveling subject) for the past several years. So you need avid offline tournament players, period. As of now with the current problems that TN doesn't see as problems. The tournament players you would like us to push the game to, will not play, and if they do they won't for long.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
The original feedback thread was to give people something solid and easy to copy and paste when they had the open feedback on the demo. So yeah, it was sent.
Yes, there is the remaining issues thread but it's headed up with a bunch of general discussion first. It would be fine if the original poster wants to edit the first post to become an evolving, tight, list. But yes, it doesn't really need to be replicated.
I'd advocate we just get behind the feedback and give a consensus for Sorwah and/or DrDogg to present.
As for pushing to tournaments, like I said - lets not assume the worst and not be ready to support the game if it's good.
From what we know, it's a VERY good game, with some issues to be ironed out. Yes, DOA4's scene died, but it had its chances and this is a much better game. So it will have SOME legs.
The point I'm making is the community and player attitudes need to be of a mind to go play and support the game in its opening window - we have enough reason to.
I very much doubt it will be a "bad" game, but if people aren't happy with it, they can fall away naturally and move on to other things - I wouldn't blame them - but lets give it its shot first.
Yes, there is the remaining issues thread but it's headed up with a bunch of general discussion first. It would be fine if the original poster wants to edit the first post to become an evolving, tight, list. But yes, it doesn't really need to be replicated.
I'd advocate we just get behind the feedback and give a consensus for Sorwah and/or DrDogg to present.
As for pushing to tournaments, like I said - lets not assume the worst and not be ready to support the game if it's good.
From what we know, it's a VERY good game, with some issues to be ironed out. Yes, DOA4's scene died, but it had its chances and this is a much better game. So it will have SOME legs.
The point I'm making is the community and player attitudes need to be of a mind to go play and support the game in its opening window - we have enough reason to.
I very much doubt it will be a "bad" game, but if people aren't happy with it, they can fall away naturally and move on to other things - I wouldn't blame them - but lets give it its shot first.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Trust, I will be moving on, VF:FS is nice as shit. A shot it will be given, I personally will be at several tournaments this year, 3 to be exact. It doesn't take long to find out if a game is good or not on a competitive standpoint. Come the 2nd Quarter of next year, if I am playing DOA4 with no signs of it changing.
I am gone.
I am gone.
Baron West
Member
I didn't find breaking throws in those games to be that bad. But since I'm used to chickening from Tekken maybe I have an unfair bias? All things considered, I think a slim chance of breaking a throw is better than no chance.
Berserk...that consolidated feedback list...honestly I think it's a good idea. I don't know, maybe make a petition, try to get guys from other communities to sign it, and then send it in to Team Ninja?
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