DOA: Flaws and Tournament Viability

[Jefffcore]

-Is it just me, But I see delaying and free cancels as taking a risk. Any and every time you delay your attack, you are susceptible to getting hit with . Once players have string recognition and its flow chart, it will be easier to recognize when you are capable of punishing certain segments of the string.

-You know what would be nice, if Team Ninja brought back the properties from Doa2-3. It was very nice to use it as an interrupt. It was not as strong as VF's but it was still effective.

I agree.

At a certain point it turns into, "this looks like this, I can do this". Even the strings I listed, if delayed can be interrupted by a jab or a low depending on what your character can do. Even a mid in some cases. I don't think the majority spent enough time with DOA4 to really get into that though, or they were playing characters that aren't as capable.

 

[MasterHavik]

as soon as I seen Doaworld, your post lost all credibility....enough though some of us go on there and post, you really can't take anyone serious there....

Uh...I was talking to Cow and Awesmic about it. Should have brought that up. also there are some serious DOA players on doaworld. so don't say that.

I'm not trying to come off as a dick, but I seriously got a headache from trying to understand this post. Based on what I think it says, you believe that DOA 5, in its present form, "can be at EVO in a heartbeat" because Tina and Bayman have to set up their throws? If so, that's a pretty weak argument. You also said that some people are being too hard on the game and it's not even out, yet you said that the same game is EVO worthy in its present state. That doesn't really make sense to me either since that goes both ways. I'm not trying to be negative, but no one can say the game is EVO worthy until they at least play it, and saying that it looked solid in a couple of balance test videos and that that is a good enough reason is a little silly.

Okay let me make things simple. From the latest balance videos I feel it can be at evo in a heartbeat.

Next point you guys were being too hard on the game and YOU guys were basing your opinions off an outdated build. I was talking about a more current build. So how is it silly, if the balance videos show TN tone down Tina and Bayman. Wait...let's go deeper. Why were Tina and Bayman feature in the first balance video? Because they were the hot topic at E3. Some players I talk to about the E3 build for DOA 5 said Tina and Bayman were really strong and cloud possibly be overpowered. That video shows me TN was lsitening and actually took a good loo kat those two characters.

Next point, I mention how it seems both Tina and Bayman actually have to put in work to get their throws. It wasn't as easy compare to the E3 build of DOA 5 I saw of them. they were getting them like it was nothing.

So, I'm not trying to be dick, but you're giving me a headache with your post sir. I broke down my reasons this time and I'm showing YOU my POV. If you don't get this then I demand they make Zack the best character in the game.

 

[DriftSlave]

Uh...I was talking to Cow and Awesmic about it. Should have brought that up. also there are some serious DOA players on doaworld. so don't say that.

they are here too, i'm not seeing the point....eh it doesn't matter. Point is it's still too early to say this game is tournament viable based on what we seen in some balance videos....when people actually spend some time with the game and start breaking it open...then we can start saying if the game is or isn't tournament viable....in it's current state...not many will travel for a DOA tournament.

 

[MasterHavik]

they are here too, i'm not seeing the point....eh it doesn't matter. Point is it's still too early to say this game is tournament viable based on what we seen in some balance videos....when people actually spend some time with the game and start breaking it open...then we can start saying if the game is or isn't tournament viable....in it's current state...not many will travel for a DOA tournament.

And so are you. So what is your point? But I agree with the second part. This goes for me and you, dogg, the guy with the chicken for the head, ponies trying to play fighting games, and don't forget those guys that buy the game just to look at the girls. Everypony needs to keep their clam and be AWESOME. and yeah we gotta fix that travel thing.

 

[DriftSlave]

More people would travel if more people would host the game, establishing a ranbats in your local area is a start....it's sad when people are playing Sailor Moon S instead of DOA right?

 

[Dr. Teeth]

Next point you guys were being too hard on the game and YOU guys were basing your opinions off an outdated build. I was talking about a more current build. So how is it silly, if the balance videos show TN tone down Tina and Bayman.

I've never said anything negative about DOA 5 at any point. If other people on the site are being Debbie Downers then that's on them. Their opinions are not my own, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't lump me in with them.

So, I'm not trying to be dick, but you're giving me a headache with your post sir. I broke down my reasons this time and I'm showing YOU my POV. If you don't get this then I demand they make Zack the best character in the game.

All I wanted was for you to be a little clearer since I couldn't really understand your first post, so thanks for clearing it up. I see your point of view now. I don't agree with it, but to each his own. I could go deeper, but I'd rather not. It would only devolve into an internet argument, and I'm sure you and I both have better things to do with our time haha.

I do agree that Zack should be better though!

 

[DrDogg]

Uh...I was talking to Cow and Awesmic about it.

Your first post made it clear that you don't really understand how DOA works. You also brought up CDjr and MK9 as if they have any relevance to the conversation (they don't). So I'm not even going to address that post. For the record, I disagree with pretty much everything Berzerk said in his response to you.

Saying that you were talking to Cow and Awesmic doesn't really back up your statements. Cow doesn't want the same kind of game most of the competitive players have been rallying for. Awesmic rarely adds anything of value to gameplay discussions.

So how is it silly, if the balance videos show TN tone down Tina and Bayman. Wait...let's go deeper. Why were Tina and Bayman feature in the first balance video? Because they were the hot topic at E3. Some players I talk to about the E3 build for DOA 5 said Tina and Bayman were really strong and cloud possibly be overpowered. That video shows me TN was lsitening and actually took a good loo kat those two characters.

Bayman and Tina were not overpowered at E3. Whoever you talked to who said they were clearly didn't understand how the system works, or would rather have a system similar to DOA4. I would say Bayman was top tier, but definitely not OP or in need of a nerf. I would MUCH rather have seen all of the other characters buffed (except maybe Hayabusa).

Tina was solid at E3, but she wasn't as good as Bayman and while she could possibly have been top tier, it wasn't due to her throws. It's because she was the safest character in the build. That's the last thing that should be toned down.

So while we have no confirmation that either character has actually been toned down, if Team Ninja did in fact tone them both down, they're listening to the wrong people.

Next point, I mention how it seems both Tina and Bayman actually have to put in work to get their throws. It wasn't as easy compare to the E3 build of DOA 5 I saw of them. they were getting them like it was nothing.

Could you go into more detail as to how you came to this conclusion?

90% of the attacks in the game are unsafe. Until we have confirmation that this fact has changed, it will be just as easy to get throws off.

 

[Blackula]

If you don't get this then I demand they make Zack the best character in the game.

If they do that, then I know who my new main would be. This is like the only fighting game I play where I DON'T use the Muay Thai character.

VF - Brad
Tekken - Bruce
SF - Adon and Sagat
KOF - Hwa Jai and Joe Higashi

DOA - ............................Ein (soon to be Hitomi if Ein doesn't make the cut)

 

[BlackxxxMamba]

At this point of the game, (you know, the point where the game isn't even out yet) no one should be complaining or worrying about it being the same as DOA4. The game already doesn't feel like DOA4 so far.

What people here need to understand, when it comes to new installment of FG's, is there are new system changes, but keeps the core gameplay of said game. What makes DOA5 play different than DOA4 are: Counters do barely any damage and you can punish whiffed counters now, (therefore making counters NOT the best option out of every situation anymore) unholdable stuns, critical burst, modified side-step system, etc. Now, side-stepping can be A LOT better. The game can still use some work before the final release and some of us are trying to help get these changes, but the overall ambiance of DOA5 is very much different than DOA4. There are new factors now to play around with in DOA5 that makes it different than DOA4.

When DOA5 comes out and people still feel it plays like DOA4, then it probably means YOU'RE playing it like DOA4. Worst case scenario, final release is a complete overhaul from the versions we've been playing and goes backwards, takes out a lot of the new and improved changes made to the game.

 

[grap3fruitman]

This....I'll say it again..I think you guys are being too hard on the game and it's not even out yet. So relax for god's sake. I mean all your opinions are coming from an outdated build that has been updated since then.

I already addressed this statement from you but you conveniently ignored my post:

He's not being too hard on the game. These are the same items that have held DOA back from being a competent fighter and they're still present in DOA5. If you don't understand history, you're going to repeat it, right? Well this seems like a case of deja vu to me.

From the latest balance videos I feel it can be at evo in a heartbeat.

It's nice that you feel that way but you're wrong. The aim shouldn't be Evo anyway, the aim should be getting a consistent 150+ people at all the majors. You're not going to with the game in its current state.

Some players I talk to about the E3 build for DOA 5 said Tina and Bayman were really strong and cloud possibly be overpowered.

Oh, these characters have some viable tools now and that's your idea of broken and needing to be fixed? Please stop talking about fighting game balance when you clearly don't know anything about the subject.

 

[UncleKitchener]

Everypony

Uuuuuh, no.

Just no.

 

[Shinigamimatt]

Although I agree we shouldn't be doom and gloom before the game is even out, I can still see why some are. Let's be honest here. The game needs a ton of fixes to get this game at events. Not just a little. DOA already lost a ton of people from DOA4. If it doesn't look like a huge enough change from 4 to those people, they'll just ignore it before even giving it a chance.

If someone picks up the game and hated it before for holds, well the second they can hold out of something, they'll probably put the controller down. They won't care about some SS or CB mechanic. The game already left a sour taste in their mouth.

 

[BlackxxxMamba]

Although I agree we shouldn't be doom and gloom before the game is even out, I can still see why some are. Let's be honest here. The game needs a ton of fixes to get this game at events. Not just a little. DOA already lost a ton of people from DOA4. If it doesn't look like a huge enough change from 4 to those people, they'll just ignore it before even giving it a chance.

If someone picks up the game and hated it before for holds, well the second they can hold out of something, they'll probably put the controller down. They won't care about some SS or CB mechanic. The game already left a sour taste in their mouth.

In your opinion, what are all these fixes that still need to be made?

 

[Shinigamimatt]

In your opinion, what are all these fixes that still need to be made?

Really? You actually think the game is 100% fine and can now compete with every other fighter on the market?

Seriously?? Most of the moves being completely unsafe isn't a problem? Being able to counter out of most things still isn't a problem?

This is coming from a guy who actually liked a decent amount of DOA4. DOA5 needs some more work.

 

[BlackxxxMamba]

Really? You actually think the game is 100% fine and can now compete with every other fighter on the market?

Seriously?? Most of the moves being completely unsafe isn't a problem? Being able to counter out of most things still isn't a problem?

This is coming from a guy who actually liked a decent amount of DOA4. DOA5 needs some more work.

I never said the game is 100% fine, I just wanted to know all these fixes that need to be made from your perspective. Now how about answering my question.

 

[Shinigamimatt]

I never said the game is 100% fine, I just wanted to know all these fixes that need to be made from your perspective. Now how about answering my question.

I already did. Unsafe move sets aren't fun for anyone. Being able to hold out of a lot of things isn't fun. They fixed a lot of the holding, but not enough. As of now, DOA5 looks fun as all hell. I know I'm gonna have many hours of enjoyment online

But, it still looks like a lot of why many people get turned off by DOA.

 

[BlackxxxMamba]

I already did. Unsafe move sets aren't fun for anyone. Being able to hold out of a lot of things isn't fun. They fixed a lot of the holding, but not enough. As of now, DOA5 looks fun as all hell. I know I'm gonna have many hours of enjoyment online

But, it still looks like a lot of why many people get turned off by DOA.

Oh, excuse me, I just figured you had an idea of "A TON" of fixes that needed to be made in DOA5.

And who really cares if they hold out of shit now? The changes that were made is already A LOT better than DOA4 and proves TN is trying to go in the right direction. Let me explain: Counters don't do that much damage, and if you guess wrong, you are eating a ton of damage. Also, you can straight up launch punish counters now and really mess up their day. The Risk/Reward is so much greater now, people are gonna hesitate whether to keep countering out of everything or not. They are gonna learn and they are gonna pay. You can train people not to do that as much as they did in DOA4. It's up to them whether they can be trained out of such a habit. If not, then that is their fault. And there are unholdable stuns as well. Just use those for stuns.

Yea, a lot of things are unsafe and I agree (with the other people who have already stated that) they need to change that, but look at it through a DOA mindset. Though a lot of things are unsafe, in theory, a lot of things can be made safe for the simple fact that you can delay everything in this game. How many safe or unsafe moves each character in this game had never dictated them being good or not. Now I'm not saying they need to keep the moves how they are now. They SHOULD make more safe moves, but I'm just giving a little food for thought.

Yea, I would love DOA5 to be at more events as well. Do you plan on actually going to some of these events when the game comes out?

 

[Berzerk!]

That's the key question for everyone - do YOU plan on supporting the game at events?

 

[BlackxxxMamba]

People showing up and supporting events is what keep games in events, and into more events.

 

[Codemaster92163]

Though a lot of things are unsafe, in theory, a lot of things can be made safe for the simple fact that you can delay everything in this game.?

I was just about to mention something reminiscent of this. If people complain about everything being unsafe as well as the ability to delay more moves, aren't those (mildly) contradicting? You're asking the creators to remove something they implemented to increase the viability of unsafe moves...then complain about moves being unsafe because it causes them to lose viability.

I understand the workaround to this is to just make things less unsafe, then remove the delays; but quite frankly, I consider delays to be a part of the mindgame arena, just like overheads/lows or frametraps in other fighters.