DOA: Flaws and Tournament Viability

[Allan Paris]

Having actual safe moves and a mechanic that gives a false sense of being safe is not the same thing.

Yeah delayed strings are a part of the metagame. However, in those "other fighters" not every single attack is an overhead/low nor cause a frametrap. No one is saying remove the string delays completely but, tightening up the lot of the strings that can do it will suffice.

 

[MasterHavik]

I would response to whatever camera guy said, but I'll leave it alone since he is the Discord of this thread. Go mke yourself some chocolate milk in a glass and cotton candy clouds.

What do you guys think of Jann Lee and Lisa?

I think Jann will be a nightmare for the ninja. He is so fast it's crazy. He is always a good second to learn if you have problems with characters with crushes and more options than your main (Zack). He is going to be what you're seeing online day one.

Now onto lisa. i'm so fucking hype to see her back and she is getting that love from TN. She looks a lot fast and it seems she won't be uber trash. i love how her throws are more useful this time. I hope Deja vu is easier to do on pad this time too. She's unpredictable like my main. I see a nice trio of Zack, Tina, and Lisa for me.

So yeah don't worry about me. I'll be going to tournament. I'll try to build a scene for where I'm going for college. Good thing I got work study and a job, so i'll be able to travel a lot for FGs more.

Uuuuuh, no.

Just no.

Yes. YES. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. My good man. Would you love to see MLP dub in Japanese?

I was just about to mention something reminiscent of this. If people complain about everything being unsafe as well as the ability to delay more moves, aren't those (mildly) contradicting? You're asking the creators to remove something they implemented to increase the viability of unsafe moves...then complain about moves being unsafe because it causes them to lose viability.

I understand the workaround to this is to just make things less unsafe, then remove the delays; but quite frankly, I consider delays to be a part of the mindgame arena, just like overheads/lows or frametraps in other fighters.

This. But everypony in this thread doesn't realize that because they;re not a faithful student of Princess Celestia. Let me stop with the MLP references and response to this. Anyways my good man code I feel at the end of the day everypony just wants this game to be good for Celestia. They care, but are their actions in the right place. I think the argument for unsafe moves is viable. It would be a block and I punish you feast... or worst...a holdfeast with no chips and dip. How evil I must say. But with everything consider, I'll be getting this game day one because it was the first fighter I took serious. and i'll be the first to make a guide for my main man Zack.

 

[Raansu]

I think Jann will be a nightmare for the ninja. He is so fast it's crazy. He is always a good second to learn if you have problems with characters with crushes and more options than your main (Zack). He is going to be what you're seeing online day one.

I really doubt that. The ninjas could be the worst characters in the world and they will still be the most played online. Jann Lee has always been the middle ground online. I don't see it being any different with DoA5.

 

[Codemaster92163]

Having actual safe moves and a mechanic that gives a false sense of being safe is not the same thing.

Yeah delayed strings are a part of the metagame. However, in those "other fighters" not every single attack is an overhead/low nor cause a frametrap. No one is saying remove the string delays completely but, tightening up the lot of the strings that can do it will suffice.

I wasn't meaning to sound as though they were the same thing. My point was that players are asking for the removal of a feature that makes unsafe moves a little better to use while simultaneously complaining about those moves not being better.

As for the second part, I agree. Well, mostly. I still think there's no real problem in keeping extended string delays. There comes a point where the length that you delay your attack becomes irrelevant as the opponent, who we shall assume is attacking you thinking you free canceled, starts jabbing away. The only point in the defender attacking is to get back on the offensive after witnessing what they believe to be a free cancel. They'll be attacking quickly in that gap of inaction. Either they'll lose to the opponent's move which was delayed, or beat it out. In any case, assuming the defender attacks swiftly as they would if it were their intention to take advantage of the free cancel, the delay has a cut off point. The ability to hold it out for a long period of time doesn't matter when your opponent is attacking you far before your maxed delay comes. It would really only matter (maybe? I'm unsure of the mechanics here) if they try to throw punish you. I just don't know if delays count as an action, or if they can be thrown like the beginning of a sabaki or charge move.

Hell, even if lengthy delays were still an issue, I've seen 95% of board members complain about the difficulty (and lack of benefits) of staying on the offensive. If delays help the attacker to keep attacking just a little bit more often, what's the issue? No one has been criticizing the defensive tools, so why remove (well, limit, I should say) them from the offensive players?

I'm not addressing unsafe moves as I have no logical counter-argument that I've not already stated. If my reasoning is insufficient, then I won't change your mind. I just don't mind them, really, even when I'm only ever on the offense. If many players wish for that to be changed still, then TN might as well cater to the majority (I'm not saying that to be snide - I really mean it).

 

[MasterHavik]

I really doubt that. The ninjas could be the worst characters in the world and they will still be the most played online. Jann Lee has always been the middle ground online. I don't see it being any different with DoA5.

Bruce Lee man...Bruce Lee. Don't doubt the Bruce Lee greatness. Just like Ray Charles. He got mega popular after he died. Let's not forget I find him pretty easy to use compared to three of the four ninjas.(I feel Ayane is really to hard in my opinion. I couldn't use you for shit. in 4). Sure the ninjas are popular, but Mr. Bruce Lee isn't far behind. Sigh...I hope there isn't a lot of online Zacks. Anyways...do you think TN would do that to the ninjas?

 

[Allan Paris]

I wasn't meaning to sound as though they were the same thing. My point was that players are asking for the removal of a feature that makes unsafe moves a little better to use while simultaneously complaining about those moves not being better.

That's the thing, all of them being delay-able does not make them better, it's a pseudo effect. Asking TN to tighten them up, then add frame advantage for some single striking moves and in between strings. Now you are safe and can apply real pressure. Doing this is helping the offender and not striping them of anything. Plus playing with numbers for advantage/disadvantage is not a very taxing task to do.

The ability to hold it out for a long period of time doesn't matter when your opponent is attacking you far before your maxed delay comes. It would really only matter (maybe? I'm unsure of the mechanics here) if they try to throw punish you. I just don't know if delays count as an action, or if they can be thrown like the beginning of a sabaki or charge move.

Yeah, I know the games behind playing with the delays, still doesn't make them solid. You can throw if a free cancel is done. If you throw and the window is still open for them to attack, and they press a button, you are getting HCH.

Hell, even if lengthy delays were still an issue, I've seen 95% of board members complain about the difficulty (and lack of benefits) of staying on the offensive. If delays help the attacker to keep attacking just a little bit more often, what's the issue? No one has been criticizing the defensive tools, so why remove (well, limit, I should say) them from the offensive players?

Those complaints are highly justified when almost everything you do is unsafe on block and hit. Delyays don't help the attacker, go watch good players play DOA4, people played the back of the screen for a reason, ain't that much spacing in the world. Then go watch DOA3.1 matches, players spaced but, are more engaged with each other because the game had the proper tools to create sufficient pressure.

I'm not addressing unsafe moves as I have no logical counter-argument that I've not already stated. If my reasoning is insufficient, then I won't change your mind. I just don't mind them, really, even when I'm only ever on the offense. If many players wish for that to be changed still, then TN might as well cater to the majority (I'm not saying that to be snide - I really mean it).

That's fine I know others that don't mind them as well. Just keep in mind that the string delays in DOA do not help you on the offensive. I'd like them to be tightened up but, if they are not and stay the same I can play the game just fine without skipping a beat.

 

[Chris Harris]

Yea. . . .

String delays is a PART of why you can make a move safe or not. It's purely safe because there IS a follow up.

What we're saying is the system of using ONE type of strategy to mount an offense (To finish the string or not finish the string. . . .that is the question) when you get in close is very one dimensional.

Now obviously someone could just 0 respect your string and attack/throw instantly but any person with a brain sees the move and then their brain goes "hey he could do something else" and keeps blocking. They know when someone will likely stop the string and make an educated guess of when to take their turn.

In other fighters that are turn based you can do a move with advantage then go for a safe option that CAN net damage but it gives the opponent an opportunity to return the favor. You obviously have your defensive options as well.

 

[Raansu]

Bruce Lee man...Bruce Lee. Don't doubt the Bruce Lee greatness. Just like Ray Charles. He got mega popular after he died. Let's not forget I find him pretty easy to use compared to three of the four ninjas.(I feel Ayane is really to hard in my opinion. I couldn't use you for shit. in 4). Sure the ninjas are popular, but Mr. Bruce Lee isn't far behind. Sigh...I hope there isn't a lot of online Zacks. Anyways...do you think TN would do that to the ninjas?

You didn't play DoA2U or DoA4 online that much did you? I had gotten to the point where I would rarely join public rooms and if you picked Hayabusa I would just leave because I was so sick of everyone playing him and was so sick of playing against him and 99% of them were just terrible. Jann Lee was the middle ground of "other characters" that people used. I didn't see him all that often online.

 

[Codemaster92163]

That's the thing, all of them being delay-able does not make them better, it's a pseudo effect. Asking TN to tighten them up, then add frame advantage for some single striking moves and in between strings. Now you are safe and can apply real pressure. Doing this is helping the offender and not striping them of anything. Plus playing with numbers for advantage/disadvantage is not a very taxing task to do.

I know - I've already said they could just do that and fix this complaint you all have. Still, I don't understand why you think delays are not beneficial. I don't know if you're exaggerating to make a point or not, but I'd think you would understand that adding another mindgame (delayed or canceled) in addition to the normal mid/low one would make a string more likely to land, thereby improving it, even if by only the slightest margin.

Those complaints are highly justified when almost everything you do is unsafe on block and hit. Delyays don't help the attacker, go watch good players play DOA4, people played the back of the screen for a reason, ain't that much spacing in the world. Then go watch DOA3.1 matches, players spaced but, are more engaged with each other because the game had the proper tools to create sufficient pressure.

I know they are justified, but then how does that make my point any less true? To say that delays don't help the attacker is false, and I'm fairly certain you know this. Let's say you were to finish a string normally. Your attack is unsafe, and so you're thrown. Now, let's say you delay it. If they were to block it, then you're one again unsafe and thrown - no difference. Yet if they think you free canceled and thereby attack, you're likely to get a high counter hit and stun. How is that not at least slightly helpful? I've played DOA4 a lot, so I know how players fought. That has little to do with the usefulness of a delayed string.

That's fine I know others that don't mind them as well. Just keep in mind that the string delays in DOA do not help you on the offensive. I'd like them to be tightened up but, if they are not and stay the same I can play the game just fine without skipping a beat.

Same, more or less. I really don't care what happens in the end, so long as the game is still fun. I just found players' arguments to be contradictory in nature.

 

[BlackxxxMamba]

Its because being able to delay every single string just adds another pointless guessing game to DOA.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

Man, i bet that Udonis Haslem would LOVE guaranteed buckets in the paint.

I mean, he shook his defender right? So his shot should go down 100% of the time.

Ya know what the NBA should do? The should attach a rope to the ball so that when you shoot it - unless someone comes by to smack it or steal it - it will always go into the hoop.

Same with pick up football - its not fair that if I stiff arm a guy he can grab my legs as I run over him. If his butt touches the ground hes out of the game damnit!

I mean, look at this!

Fedor put Henderson on his butt, its not fair that he should be able to have so many options to defend himself.

You guys are on to something - real competition is hard, we need to make things as easy as humanly possible to master.

What we need is less drama and more predictablity, because people always want to know what happens next. :/

 

[Allan Paris]

String delays is a PART of why you can make a move safe or not. It's purely safe because there IS a follow up.

Everything you said, great, I get that, I can co-sign that. Except this right here (bold text), that is a false sense of security no matter how you cut it. Unless the follow up is safe but that's not the case.

Kasumi has a string in particular that is "safe" because it has a follow up. It also pushes the opponent away in the middle of the floor and they can't throw punish her. Though, if your back is to a wall and I decide to do this "safe" string, I am getting thrown. Yeah I can choose to finish my attack but all of my options including delaying it are unsafe. To the trained eye, I am screwed the moment I go into the string.

I am pretty sure other characters have this going on with them too. I didn't care too much to find other fake safe strings.

So I am going to have to disagree with that one-liner right there, my friend.

 

[Chris Harris]

Disagree with what?

I'm not saying it's right, just stating the reasoning why it is "safe" and my assumption as to why the moves are all hella unsafe. It's the only reasoning that so many moves could be so unsafe.

They give us at least 4 variants to attacks (strings) that we can super delay but the thing is all of them stun on counter hit but are all unsafe. This encourages you to use that type of system which we are all very used to.

 

[Allan Paris]

snip

This right here pretty much sums up everything that I am getting at. As well as everyone who is speaking against the massive string delays in the game.

Its because being able to delay every single string just adds another pointless guessing game to DOA.

They can be beneficial, I am not saying that they are not. But on every single string is just dumb. Since you get no type of advantage from delaying, other than constant fake-outs, you are not applying pressure as an offender.

Playing VF I delay like 2 strings Pai has and it's to stop players from ducking my strings entirely, I also pick up an advantage if I catch you trying to duck. If they don't duck and I get blocked, I am immediately put in the negative. So I do not rely on it nor is it heavily a part of my metagame. It wouldn't be wise for it to be. So there are other moves and strings that I can use to get an advantage on block. I am not left with just delaying all of my moves for fake outs, fishing for damage or a CH.

Delaying strings in DOA is your only option as an offender during the neutral game. With everything being unsafe, who would want to go on the offensive first?

I don't think they were 'contradictory' but more along the lines of you not getting the entire picture. Delays being tightened up and then adding in frame advantage; you wouldn't need to rely on a pseudo offense 100% of the time.

I'm not saying it's right, just stating the reasoning why it is "safe" and my assumption as to why the moves are all hella unsafe. It's the only reasoning that so many moves could be so unsafe.

lol, I gotcha now. my bad.

 

[Codemaster92163]

I suppose I'm just debating something pointless. Not that I didn't enjoy it, but we're caught in a position where gameplay preference defines how we see the facts. I see your points, but I enjoy additional mindgames (: Now, you said everything is delay-able. THAT certainly doesn't sit well with me. Several moves makes sense, as it was before, but everything seems...overdone.

 

[Chris Harris]

Facts really?

How is what you're saying any more factual than what we are saying?

 

[Codemaster92163]

Who said I was saying anything "more factual"? Please read. Saying we see the facts differently meant we all see them, but they mean different things to us.

 

[Chris Harris]

Who said I was saying anything "more factual"? Please read. Saying we see the facts differently meant we all see them, but they mean different things to us.

I'm just going to say okay and leave you to it buddy. Learned my lesson, sorry for the inconvenience on whatever it is you are trying to convey to me

 

[MasterHavik]

You didn't play DoA2U or DoA4 online that much did you? I had gotten to the point where I would rarely join public rooms and if you picked Hayabusa I would just leave because I was so sick of everyone playing him and was so sick of playing against him and 99% of them were just terrible. Jann Lee was the middle ground of "other characters" that people used. I didn't see him all that often online.

I played Doa 4...i wouldn't be on this site at all...or know how to play Zack at all. I played DOA 3 as well. I got into the DOA series late. Stop trying to assume what I do or what I play. It's getting kind of annoying and is kind of rude. I'm not asking you the same questions sir.

But you response to your statement. I got a good mixture actually. I saw most of the cast most of the times. I didn't to badly against ninjas. I was more worried about Helena and Gen fu more than anything. I stop playing because I got bored and wanted to play other stuff at the time.

 

[Chris Harris]

I played Doa 4...i wouldn't be on this site at all...or know how to play Zack at all. I played DOA 3 as well. I got into the DOA series late. Stop trying to assume what I do or what I play. It's getting kind of annoying and is kind of rude. I'm not asking you the same questions sir.

But you response to your statement. I got a good mixture actually. I saw most of the cast most of the times. I didn't to badly against ninjas. I was more worried about Helena and Gen fu more than anything. I stop playing because I got bored and wanted to play other stuff at the time.

Just pointing out how much this post made me laugh lol

 

[grap3fruitman]

That's the key question for everyone - do YOU plan on supporting the game at events?

No.