I Am The Shadow... The True Self... [General Discussion]

[synce]

Probably because Alpha players know how to exploit her weaknesses. Alpha is free if you use the right finishers against her and know how to dash forward. I honestly don't think I've ever lost to an Alpha in 5U.

Same story with P4, just replace all the dashing with blocking. She has a couple ways to open people up but the amount of work you have to put in isn't worth the reward. Other characters can do everything better.

Anyway I was kidding when I said TN purposely made them both weak, TBH I think they just suck at balancing. P4 was probably their attempt at a VF style character, with tighter execution and less reliance on strings, but they forgot to give her something important - frame advantage.

With Alpha they nerfed over half her movelist but forgot to buff her defense. You can't tell me with a straight face that Alpha's offense is any scarier than Helena's or Christie's, and unlike them she's a ragdoll once on the floor and can't gain additional damage from counters.

 

[tokiopewpew]

Phase 4 does not deserve to get frame advantage on block because she is not a momentum based character like Rig. Also, allowing her to teleport on block and making her moves safer would make her way to braindead indeed, due to the reasons @Yurlungur stated.

I don't really think you understand how phase works, phase once she gets started has the SCARIEST mix up game in doa. Everything after the point of a teleport becomes a hard read, if she simply could open people up at any minute she'd break the game.
it's extremely hard to balance a character like her since one of her combos after the huge execution barrier is extremely damaging even on heavy weights. If they make her safe she can just randomly throw out moves and fish for counter pokes all day and become extremely brain dead. So how would you balance her out?

I could post this in the wishlist thread too. Move's that allow to enter the teleport mixup (like 3P or 66K) should neither be safe on block nor delayable in any way because then she could try to do it all day long until she get's it to land big damage, which is a way too uneven risk/reward ratio.

 

[Chapstick]

Probably because Alpha players know how to exploit her weaknesses. Alpha is free if you use the right finishers against her and know how to dash forward. I honestly don't think I've ever lost to an Alpha in 5U.

Same story with P4, just replace all the dashing with blocking. She has a couple ways to open people up but the amount of work you have to put in isn't worth the reward. Other characters can do everything better.

Anyway I was kidding when I said TN purposely made them both weak, TBH I think they just suck at balancing. P4 was probably their attempt at a VF style character, with tighter execution and less reliance on strings, but they forgot to give her something important - frame advantage.

With Alpha they nerfed over half her movelist but forgot to buff her defense. You can't tell me with a straight face that Alpha's offense is any scarier than Helena's or Christie's, and unlike them she's a ragdoll once on the floor and can't gain additional damage from counters.

So you're saying she doesn't have any BS because she doesn't have a wake up kick except in certain situations? I just parry when someone tries to continue offense on me when I get up.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

So you're saying she doesn't have any BS because she doesn't have a wake up kick except in certain situations? I just parry when someone tries to continue offense on me when I get up.

Where has either one of us said, "She has no bullshit?" I don't see it! This seems to be the argument: Alpha players should stfu since she's loaded! (Yet, I don't want my character to be as loaded as she though I can easily take the wind out of her sails!)" AYFS?

The parry is useless! It just leads to more dashing + mashing! (and this is strangely odd when people bitch about her zoning/keepaway game; yet, say, Nyo-Tengu should play like this? Again, really? You would wind-gust all day, but bitch if I spin kick all day? Really? Mind you, this is the most free character in this game (aka - I will spam guarantees all day long)

She has an OP throw? How to balance it? Make her crazy light to let everybody combo-fuck.
She has crazy ass offense? Let's reciprocate, so she can't defend herself
Full screen catch grab? Well, we're dashing + mashing anyway, so no-issue there
The best neutral/ground game in DOA, let's make it so it doesn't exist but only for her
Made to spam? I'll just spam back (Oh, she didn't do it, so I'll say she did)
WUK? Kick her while down or punish her so hard that situation never arises
SDS Teleport (Normal Holds) Just mash to beat her out (Works well on GBs, too)
Spacing = Automatic win; Bull-rushing = Automatic Loss (But I'll space when it's losing time for me. I see this in general, too) aka Spacing isn't that important!

Need I list more? Like I said, she is the most free character in the game now! And Phase 4 needs to be somewhat safe? smh! If people played intelligently, her unsafe nature wouldn't be an issue! Neither Alpha's nor Kasumi's is! (Oh, wait! Can't compare them though they arent that damn different)

 

[Zero Beat]

I've incorporated all of the advice I've received on this board so far, and thanks to that and a break to let the knowledge sink in while letting some bad habits die, I just pulled off a 15 match win streak against a guy who previously curbstomped me with little to no effort.

 

[tokiopewpew]

Hopefully LR will get some hitbox adjustments.

 

[Chapstick]

Chifu P makes me go straight through people that are crouching/crushing highs sometimes. This happens when ending juggles with it too.

 

[Zero Beat]

Chifu P makes me go straight through people that are crouching/crushing highs sometimes. This happens when ending juggles with it too.

You mean how sometimes the tracking messes up and she throws an elbow beside them and completely whiffs even though there is no reason for it do that? I've had that happen and it sucks.

 

[Chapstick]

I mean she goes straight through the opponent to the other side of the screen and then me and the opponent are back to back

 

[Saber]

So I just bought Phase-4...

And man is she hard to use. I can sort of get the timing, but it's going to take a whole lotta practice. I'm having quite a bit of trouble with continuous teleport attacks because my fingers can't keep up.

How I wish the timing could be like Kasumi's teleports where you can buffer it instead of having them on hit. Those who don't play on a monitor but a TV with input lag will have serious trouble getting the timing down.

 

[Chapstick]

According to the Raidou trailer Phase 4 can teleport from 66K now when it's blocked

 

[tokiopewpew]

Somehow, I imagine this to be some kind of useless teleport. It really depends on which other changes TN made to her tools, becauseif you look at what she currently can do out of a teleport isn't that threatening if the opponent isn't already stunned. I'm afraid that if they just continue blocking, she won't get anything, especially if her followups out of that move will be as easy interuptable by a low like the ones she can currently do after 66PP.

Dunno if there will be a mind game like "Does she teleport or not?" Well, we'll see ...

I don't like the outfit she's wearing there :>

 

[Chapstick]

I honestly think it's just because Kasumi can 66K~K on block. If they choose to just stand and guard or sidestep you can tenfu throw. A low would get crushed by tenfu K

As for the outfit: I agree but someone here made it

 

[tokiopewpew]

I honestly think it's just because Kasumi can 66K~K on block. If they choose to just stand and guard or sidestep you can tenfu throw. A low would get crushed by tenfu K

Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know, tenfu throw currently only connects if the opponent is sidestepping or holding. So just block every of her follow-ups and you'll get free advantage. True about the low, though. I just had something similar in terms of crushes in mind, but actually, I believe tenfu follow up attacks would beat out any counter attempt atm, except sidestep attacks (right?).

 

[synce]

It's a change in the right direction. Maybe they're actually listening to suggestions..

 

[Zero Beat]

According to the Raidou trailer Phase 4 can teleport from 66K now when it's blocked

Sweet. Hopefully this extend to all of her teleport moves, but hey, now we have at least 2 options for when they decide to block all day.

Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know, tenfu throw currently only connects if the opponent is sidestepping or holding.

The Tenfu throw should work as long as the opponent doesn't crouch or use a quick jumping attack or counterattacks since Tenfu cancels teleport Phase 4 right in front of the opponent regardless of distance, which is easiest to see when using 33K 8K~P+K. Even with pushback, it should still connect. The real question is if it works if the opponent sidesteps, since 8T and Tenfu T are listed as non-tracking.

 

[Chapstick]

Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know, tenfu throw currently only connects if the opponent is sidestepping or holding. So just block every of her follow-ups and you'll get free advantage. True about the low, though. I just had something similar in terms of crushes in mind, but actually, I believe tenfu follow up attacks would beat out any counter attempt atm, except sidestep attacks (right?).

Use 9PT against a standing blocking opponent, it's the same thing. Wouldn't make sense for it to only connect when an opponent SS's or holds and not when they're just standing there

Hopefully this extend to all of her teleport moves

Too OP

The real question is if it works if the opponent sidesteps, since 8T and Tenfu T are listed as non-tracking.

I never actually looked but it had better connect ):<

 

[tokiopewpew]

Use 9PT against a standing blocking opponent, it's the same thing. Wouldn't make sense for it to only connect when an opponent SS's or holds and not when they're just standing there

I can't test it right now but I have 6PK ~ T in mind, which never connects for me if the opponent is not doing what I wrote. If the opponent does not SE, it is understandable because I can't throw stunned opponents, but it also does not work if he's hella good in SE and able to block a tenfu P follow up.

Might be flawed by online play, but out of this teleport, tenfu T seems to be useless to me.

 

[Chapstick]

We won't truly know until the game comes out and that's if they decide to leave that in the final cut. Unfortunately there are no block teleports that lead into tenfu at the moment. I've never been able to tenfu T someone that SE's out of a stun either so it might be some sort of glitch with hitboxes that hopefully they'll fix.

 

[tokiopewpew]

... so it might be some sort of glitch with hitboxes that hopefully they'll fix.

lol, if so, her glitch list is already loooooong.

Btw, even if I say I don't like the outfit, I'm still happy for the one who made it that it's getting implemented.