Helena's needed improvements

Omegan Eckhart

Well-Known Member
She doesn't have that much new stuff. Off the top of my head I count maybe 5 or 6 new attacks/strings.
Did they at least change the properties on some of her moves? In the videos they only used her DOA4 combo's with the exception of ending her BKO grab string with 8P>whatever the input is. It would be a shame is we are stuck doing the exact same combo's that we are doing now.
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
Did they at least change the properties on some of her moves? In the videos they only used her DOA4 combo's with the exception of ending her BKO grab string with 8P>whatever the input is. It would be a shame is we are stuck doing the exact same combo's that we are doing now.

She's basically DOA4 Helena, minus the forced tech game, minus some safety, minus some damage, minus some attacks, with a couple of sit-down stuns that aren't particularly useful, and a handful of new moves/strings.
 

Zeo

Well-Known Member
Well, unless it counts as something you can't talk about who do the bottoms look like as they appear to be Lisa, Helena and Hayate. Brad from the few things I've heard is actually pretty decent but he could be down there too.
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
I don't think Hayate is low tier. He's not great, but he's better than several other characters.

I'll post my prelim tier list on launch day. You'll have to wait until then for further information.
 

Forlorn Penguin

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
She's basically DOA4 Helena, minus the forced tech game, minus some safety, minus some damage, minus some attacks, with a couple of sit-down stuns that aren't particularly useful, and a handful of new moves/strings.

Sounds like god tier quality to me.

I'll post my prelim tier list on launch day. You'll have to wait until then for further information.

Looking forward to it, man. Thanks.
 

Dravidian

Active Member
She's basically DOA4 Helena, minus the forced tech game, minus some safety, minus some damage, minus some attacks, with a couple of sit-down stuns that aren't particularly useful, and a handful of new moves/strings.
I only played doa4 for a day (roommate bought it on a whim and refused to play it with me after I whooped up on him); I only played doa2 religiously on my dreamcast- I still sucked though. That being said I havent seriously played in years and I'm having a little difficulty wrapping my head on how this effects Helena in doa5. I understand that she's lacking tools, but I guess I'm misunderstanding how she was able to better use said tools in doa4 and how they affect her mixup game-which atm seems crappy since her best tools seem to be mid punches....

I dunno

I'm just trying to figure out a game plan. I'm getting better at things like that but I feel like I'm lacking information. Any help from anyone here would be appreciated.
 

Forlorn Penguin

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
I'm having a little difficulty wrapping my head on how this effects Helena in doa5. I understand that she's lacking tools, but I guess I'm misunderstanding how she was able to better use said tools in doa4 and how they affect her mixup game-which atm seems crappy since her best tools seem to be mid punches....

From what I understand, a lot of her old useful tools and options have been removed/nerfed/made unsafe/ect., and she is designed to play the game like it's DOA4, but without her DOA4 options. Everyone else (mostly) is updated to play according to the new mechanics, but Helena has to rely on old ones that are no longer there, without having any real way of utilizing the new mechanics. Because of this, she doesn't have anything going for her and simply can't compete in competitive play. And apparently what little options she does have are unsafe, and/or easily punished.

That's what I get from all the Helena talk, at least.
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
Helena only has one safe way to enter BKO on block. However, no one is going to block everything you throw at them. So the issue is more about the risk associated with using Helena's tools rather than the tools themselves. Plus, she can't effectively link a sit-down stun into a CB or even a launcher (the requirements to do this will never happen against anyone good). Her evasion was nerfed a bit (although still decent) and she has severely limited options when she's not right in your face.

When you see some of her frame data, it will be interesting to see your reactions. I'm almost of the mindset that Team Ninja thought some of her BKO transitions would be safe, but didn't actually test them out to confirm. Either that, or they truly didn't want her to be able to enter BKO safely on block.

I also find it interesting that she still can't enter BT without using an attack or going into BKO first. She has a bunch of new tools, but they're all risky if the opponent decides to counter mid punch. I am not exaggerating when I say that Helena's bare bones strategy is to make the opponent guess between mid punch and throw. Now, if the opponent continues to guess wrong, Helena will look amazing... but the more skilled your opponent, the less likely that is to happen.

Meanwhile Hayabusa struts around with +9 tracking guard breaks, Ayane has safe, long range sit-down stuns that guarantee a launch, Eliot has parries that guarantee a launch, and Rig transitions into Flamingo with advantage on block all the time. Why go through all the effort required to compete with the other characters when it's clear Team Ninja deliberately removed Helena's tools to make her harder to play with. And by harder, I mean far lower tier, not just "get better with her".

I don't mind having to work hard to learn a character to make them mid/top tier, but no matter how much you understand Helena and DOA5 in general, she's not going to be anything other than low tier unless some sort of oddity is found like the forced tech setups in DOA4.

[/rant]
 

Dravidian

Active Member
....so essentially her game plan is rock paper scissors when her opponents have boulder, tree, zanbato, and also have better movement options.
 

Forlorn Penguin

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
....so essentially her game plan is rock paper scissors when her opponents have boulder, tree, zanbato, and also have better movement options.

No, she plays rock, paper, scissors like this, but can't play fire or water balloon, meanwhile her opponents only play fire and water balloon.

Hmmmmm.. okay.
So... we just have to hope that a patch will fix her later right ?

Yes.
 

TRI Mike

Well-Known Member
Hele stuff

This is all incredibly annoying and sad for me. Team Ninja clearly made a mistake with her and they must know it by know. I want to test her out and kill some of my casual friends with her but If all these is true then a patch must come to buff her and the other low tier characters. There's no reason for Helena to be this bad. It's just not fair.
 

DontForkWitMe

Well-Known Member
I have a feeling christie is the cause of all this, just look at her.... she has an evasive stance helena is known for, crap load of guard breaks, guaranteed damage, great mixups, and one of the fastest characters in the game. shes got everything helena players thought that she would get. it seems in a failed attempt at character individuality TN didn't want two characters to have those type of tools and playstyle and gave them all to christie while not having any idea what to change about helena to separate them so they just took out all those options for her, slapped on a couple of new strings and claimed her to be an "advanced" character that will be hard to win with as a positive for all helena players.

Not only did christie kill her mom....she also killed helena's ability to be competitive:eek:
 

Omegan Eckhart

Well-Known Member
When you see some of her frame data, it will be interesting to see your reactions. I'm almost of the mindset that Team Ninja thought some of her BKO transitions would be safe, but didn't actually test them out to confirm. Either that, or they truly didn't want her to be able to enter BKO safely on block.

This I would agree with this, TN are simply making mistakes. For instance why would anyone with half a brain make her BT grab i15? The grab does pathetic damage and guarantees nothing at all. Has to be a result of a derp moment or lousy programming.
 

DR2K

Well-Known Member
The part of me in denial is hoping that Drdogg is taking us for a ride. . . but hey if she doesn't end up the technical character Shimbori and co wanted and just ends up useless I can see her being patched.
 

Einzelkind

Active Member
Team Ninja's definition of "technical' is still what bothers me the most. It's not like she has difficult inputs like Akira or Setsuka, but neither does she have a giant movelist that requires constant changing of stances like Ivy's SC4 version. She's just bad and can't use any of the game's new tools and that makes her "technical"? That seems like something Itagaki would've pulled, but not Shimbori (at least the impression I had of him). Maybe he will realize this if anyone will use her at Season's Beatings to show him how horrible she is.
 

Omegan Eckhart

Well-Known Member
Team Ninja's definition of "technical' is still what bothers me the most. It's not like she has difficult inputs like Akira or Setsuka, but neither 9does she have a giant movelist that requires constant changing of stances like Ivy's SC4 version. She's just bad and can't use any of the game's new tools and that makes her "technical"? That seems like something Itagaki would've pulled, but not Shimbori (at least the impression I had of him). Maybe he will realize this if anyone will use her at Season's Beatings to show him how horrible she is.
There is no such thing as a technical DoA character in my opinion. DoA is 90% mind games and 10% execution skills. Taking out PP2KP will not make us use a variety of different air combo enders we will just use a different one instead.

I almost always use 66KPP, you can land it with minimal stun as long as you don't use any launcher that either leave you BT or in BKO and don't fully charge the last punch.
 

TRI Mike

Well-Known Member
Bryan, I have a mission for you. Once you get your ass in Season's Beatings, forget about winning. Just focus completely on showing how Helena plays and why she's crap and make sure Shimbori understands so we can get a patch before November to buff her and her only without touching anything else in the game. That way we don't risk the entire game being destroyed because of Hele.

Then you'll tell me how the FFXI concert was.
 

Codemaster92163

Well-Known Member
I get the feeling that there won't be a on-release patch for several reasons. One being that, even though some members got a chance to sit down and play with her, voicing their opinions, most of the other feedback is coming from members who know nothing about her other than that short (and essentially pointless) video we saw and the word from other players. I'm guessing they'll be waiting until after release and plenty of people have had time to play with her before they decide on additional changes.

I'm not saying that to knock the words of the players who've played her already (I figure if you got to play her, you're likely a good player), but I don't think TN will base much of their modifications off of the words of a few.

I, myself, won't complain about moves (except for P+K, which is already over with, as that was a simple fix that we all knew was necessary) until I have my hands on the game and see for myself exactly what her limitations are. Again, I'm not saying DrDogg and the others are wrong, but I trust myself more than others, of course xD
 
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