The FreeStepDodge Podcast
- Thread starter grap3fruitman
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DOA podcast #9 -I'm a Podcast
Gill Hustle and grap3fruitman intended on just creating a commentary track for the DOA5 reveal trailer and ended up talking for two hours instead. This is that discussion. Please to enjoy!
Episode 9 (46.9MB, 1h 56m, explicit)
Direct Link (right click and "save as") - Subscribe in iTunes - RSS feed
Gill Hustle and grap3fruitman intended on just creating a commentary track for the DOA5 reveal trailer and ended up talking for two hours instead. This is that discussion. Please to enjoy!
Episode 9 (46.9MB, 1h 56m, explicit)
Direct Link (right click and "save as") - Subscribe in iTunes - RSS feed
DOA podcast #10 -Back from the Dead!
Rikuto, Mr. Wah and grap3fruitman return from the dead to discuss the Dead or Alive 5 trailer and our hopes, concerns and wishes for the game.
Episode 10 (51.2MB, 2h 02m, explicit)
Direct Link (right click and "save as") - Subscribe in iTunes - RSS feed
Rikuto, Mr. Wah and grap3fruitman return from the dead to discuss the Dead or Alive 5 trailer and our hopes, concerns and wishes for the game.
Episode 10 (51.2MB, 2h 02m, explicit)
Direct Link (right click and "save as") - Subscribe in iTunes - RSS feed
Depressing to listen to for the most part. And I was somewhat offended... but I'll live.
Team Ninja needs help if they're really gonna fix all the problems from past games within a year and hope to sell, much less sell it in a year when a lot of fighting games are coming out or getting updated. You guys should really push for Sorwah to get with the company as a consultant and/or tester. It would be nice if PL and Tom Brady joined in as well, but they seem to have their hands full with another fighter.
Team Ninja needs help if they're really gonna fix all the problems from past games within a year and hope to sell, much less sell it in a year when a lot of fighting games are coming out or getting updated. You guys should really push for Sorwah to get with the company as a consultant and/or tester. It would be nice if PL and Tom Brady joined in as well, but they seem to have their hands full with another fighter.
We go on for two hours about how we're just constantly worried about various aspects of DOA5 right now and there's little hope for the game. That's fairly depressing if you're looking forward to the game and there were a handful of comments made towards certain individuals in the community that I'm sure some people would find offensive. In fact, I start out the gate pointing out our classiness, haha.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Truths were told, so it is what it is. Now if lies were spewed then that would be a problem. But for 2 hours and then some not 1 was told. Everything concerning the future and the gameplay of DOA as a whole was on point.
Offensive content may have been saying that "real gamers don't play nintendo" or something of that nature. I can't remember what was said but something along the lines of that. Saying "DOA4 is for the scrubbiest players" (now that quote is dead on, lol, I recall that one just fine). There were a few other lines in there that one may have found offensive, pertaining to other consoles (nintendo in particular) and DOA4 as well.
Now with what I thought that someone could find offensive, I don't at all. For one, nothing is wrong with nintendo but, no one can deny that the company caters to kids/families. When it comes to a handheld or a console nintendo does not have a hardcore competitive following. Smash Brothers may be the only game that has that type of following for it.
DOA4 is for scrubby players, or it allows less knowledgeable players to compete with knowledgeable players. Anyone that knows how DOA4 works cannot dispute this comment. No matter how good I out think someone or how much I know about DOA4, at no moment am I in control of a fight. In Tekken, SF, or MK9 if I know more than my opponent and I can excute, it shows in those games. DOA4. . . . umm. . yeah.
Oh. . . . . this was a long ass podcast.
Offensive content may have been saying that "real gamers don't play nintendo" or something of that nature. I can't remember what was said but something along the lines of that. Saying "DOA4 is for the scrubbiest players" (now that quote is dead on, lol, I recall that one just fine). There were a few other lines in there that one may have found offensive, pertaining to other consoles (nintendo in particular) and DOA4 as well.
Now with what I thought that someone could find offensive, I don't at all. For one, nothing is wrong with nintendo but, no one can deny that the company caters to kids/families. When it comes to a handheld or a console nintendo does not have a hardcore competitive following. Smash Brothers may be the only game that has that type of following for it.
DOA4 is for scrubby players, or it allows less knowledgeable players to compete with knowledgeable players. Anyone that knows how DOA4 works cannot dispute this comment. No matter how good I out think someone or how much I know about DOA4, at no moment am I in control of a fight. In Tekken, SF, or MK9 if I know more than my opponent and I can excute, it shows in those games. DOA4. . . . umm. . yeah.
Oh. . . . . this was a long ass podcast.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Yup.
It was about Nintendo?
Well, Nintendo as a system is designed for a demographic of individuals who are either very young, very old, or otherwise incapable of seriously competitive games. It's the reason old people play candyland with their grandchildren instead of full contact football. Some people end up enjoying the game into their adulthood, and it's whatever. But it is what it is, and there is no reason to deny it.
Frankly, their system covers a much wider range of people and thats why nintendo sells more. But stop a college hockey team in the middle of a game, and ask them to settle their dispute over a game of yahtzee instead? You'll probably see a similiar problem.
Certain demographics want certain things, that's all.
It was about Nintendo?
Well, Nintendo as a system is designed for a demographic of individuals who are either very young, very old, or otherwise incapable of seriously competitive games. It's the reason old people play candyland with their grandchildren instead of full contact football. Some people end up enjoying the game into their adulthood, and it's whatever. But it is what it is, and there is no reason to deny it.
Frankly, their system covers a much wider range of people and thats why nintendo sells more. But stop a college hockey team in the middle of a game, and ask them to settle their dispute over a game of yahtzee instead? You'll probably see a similiar problem.
Certain demographics want certain things, that's all.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
Great 'cast, lots covered... it was a pretty decent condensed version of a lot of discussions that had been going on. It was good to hear Rikuto on the cast for the first time too. He seems like such a nice, polite young lad!
I had a couple of points to raise some further discussion about, so I'll throw them semi-randomly here:
Rikuto's comments about them not being able to fix everything in time; completely unfounded. What we do know is that Team Ninja isn't a small team anymore. We don't know how big, but we aren't in a position to say they can't have units working on multiple games and parts of games. Hayashi certainly has hinted that with a big team they can make more than one game at a time, so I wouldn't be so pessimistic about whether they have resources to do everything.
There was some discussion later about choosing "what we can get fixed" that's also based on this presumption, honestly I'm happy enough for them to surprise us in terms of the mechanics and I'm not assuming that they are using DOA4/D as a direct base; I'm confident some of the fundamentals are changing so concentrating on ideas of how to get involved in the testing/feedback process is the most constructive thing.
Kudos to Mr Wah for his Japan travel plans!
About DOA4 sales - launch games: Kameo 0.31 million, PGR3 0.53 million, Condemned 0.34 million (it got a sequel)
Remember DOA wasn't part of the launch itself; it had to lose sales. It compares reasonably well to the above
It doesn't compare to Oblivion (2.2m) or Call of Duty 2 (1.71) but what does?
I think the PGR comparison is pretty pertinent, 500k for a celebrated racing series - racing is a semi-niche genre like fighting... DOA sales are not that far off this (topping at 489k according to Sorwah), if it had made actual launch perhaps it would have done better numbers.
The main thing to remember for both is that unless its in the stratosphere of those big games like COD the low install base at launch means titles like PGR or DOA aren't going to reach everyone.
So I wouldn't assume DOA's sales were bad given its demographic and install base at the time.
At least it wasn't like Perfect Dark Zero at only 70k.
Don't agree with the assessments of Itagaki as a scrub causing XYZ issues in DOA design. I'm sure he is a scrub, most designers are. (You think Ono can play Street Fighter?!)
The idea of the counter mechanic is to do something cool and different (at the time) in fighters, not for Itagaki's personal ego when playing. Come on. It's designed to impress players and hook them into playing more in the arcade.
The entry level of the game is a great thing - move execution should be simple, but agree that there need to be a few more hills to climb.
Not necessarily in knowing HOW to do things but WHAT to do. Fighting games at top level are about choices. Wrong or right choice, knowledge of matchup as well as opponent - these things are what games like VF and DOA emphasise and have less emphasis on how hard is it to do a move. DOA needs to tighten its inputs here and there, and I certainly feel Rikuto's pain regarding the Wakeup Glitch (as a Lei Fang player its not as bad, but I have to look out for it).
Definitely share concerns about testing and grassroots promotion of the game, which I think can both be solved by a Japanese arcade release with testing period, that would build hype and respect in the scene....
Too much to cover for now
I had a couple of points to raise some further discussion about, so I'll throw them semi-randomly here:
Rikuto's comments about them not being able to fix everything in time; completely unfounded. What we do know is that Team Ninja isn't a small team anymore. We don't know how big, but we aren't in a position to say they can't have units working on multiple games and parts of games. Hayashi certainly has hinted that with a big team they can make more than one game at a time, so I wouldn't be so pessimistic about whether they have resources to do everything.
There was some discussion later about choosing "what we can get fixed" that's also based on this presumption, honestly I'm happy enough for them to surprise us in terms of the mechanics and I'm not assuming that they are using DOA4/D as a direct base; I'm confident some of the fundamentals are changing so concentrating on ideas of how to get involved in the testing/feedback process is the most constructive thing.
Kudos to Mr Wah for his Japan travel plans!
About DOA4 sales - launch games: Kameo 0.31 million, PGR3 0.53 million, Condemned 0.34 million (it got a sequel)
Remember DOA wasn't part of the launch itself; it had to lose sales. It compares reasonably well to the above
It doesn't compare to Oblivion (2.2m) or Call of Duty 2 (1.71) but what does?
I think the PGR comparison is pretty pertinent, 500k for a celebrated racing series - racing is a semi-niche genre like fighting... DOA sales are not that far off this (topping at 489k according to Sorwah), if it had made actual launch perhaps it would have done better numbers.
The main thing to remember for both is that unless its in the stratosphere of those big games like COD the low install base at launch means titles like PGR or DOA aren't going to reach everyone.
So I wouldn't assume DOA's sales were bad given its demographic and install base at the time.
At least it wasn't like Perfect Dark Zero at only 70k.
Don't agree with the assessments of Itagaki as a scrub causing XYZ issues in DOA design. I'm sure he is a scrub, most designers are. (You think Ono can play Street Fighter?!)
The idea of the counter mechanic is to do something cool and different (at the time) in fighters, not for Itagaki's personal ego when playing. Come on. It's designed to impress players and hook them into playing more in the arcade.
The entry level of the game is a great thing - move execution should be simple, but agree that there need to be a few more hills to climb.
Not necessarily in knowing HOW to do things but WHAT to do. Fighting games at top level are about choices. Wrong or right choice, knowledge of matchup as well as opponent - these things are what games like VF and DOA emphasise and have less emphasis on how hard is it to do a move. DOA needs to tighten its inputs here and there, and I certainly feel Rikuto's pain regarding the Wakeup Glitch (as a Lei Fang player its not as bad, but I have to look out for it).
Definitely share concerns about testing and grassroots promotion of the game, which I think can both be solved by a Japanese arcade release with testing period, that would build hype and respect in the scene....
Too much to cover for now
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Not unfounded at all. They were able to change doa 3 with the limited stun system to DOA 4 because all they needed to do was automatically assign every counter-hit a stun, then have someone go through and see if it looked correct visually from exercise mode. To rebuild the game from scratch is not something you are going to be able to do in a month timespan, it requires much more attention to detail because every single attack needs a unique purpose. This is absolutely horrendously time consuming and no computer system can automatically assign stun traits in the manner necessary.
Other things, such as giving pointless moves frame advantage or an evasive trait, all require keen inspection and individualized balance. They did not do this for DOA 4/D, and were given an even greater length of time to work on it.
You are welcome to disagree on that, but it's a much bigger deal than you think, especially for a company that does not want to concern themselves overly with what they consider to be a minority in the fanbase.
You never read many of his interviews, than. Itagaki is a terrible scrub, and everyone who has ever met him has pointed this out. He made it so obviously apparent at CGS based on his comments criticizing some of the top players in the world. Limited conversation with Shimbori-san at DID7 also revealed Itagaki was the force behind the changes a month prior to the game being finished. Changes, which as can be seen from all gameplay videos + the beta version we had dr.dogg writing a strategy guide/review for at the time, made the game out to be completely different.
So to recap
-- DOA 4 was proven originally a glorified DOA 3
-- Itagaki has proven himself to be a scrub publicly
-- Itagaki has proven that he dislikes both playing, observing, and creating fighting games
-- Itagaki was proven to change the game right before it came out
-- We have DOA 4
If one cannot connect the dots, I don't know what to say. Surely that seems just a little too damning, even for you?
Xbox 1 had a much smaller install base, but DOA 3 managed to do 4X in sales. It's pretty hard to ignore that big of a difference.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
Rikuto: On how much time/resources Team Ninja has: You just don't know how long DOA5 has been in development, its actual release window, or the size of the team. Their ability to do or not do changes is just speculation. Not disputing that there are various issues that would take attention to adjust.
On Itagaki - I wasn't disputing that he was a scrub at the game. I outright said I agreed with that. What I disagreed with was the baseless characterisation that his ego as a scrub was driving his design decisions. He's a professional game designer first. That doesn't mean poor decisions can't be made but the fact that we have ANYTHING good in DOA at all you have to begrudgingly admit he was key to that too.
On sales: How do we also explain PGR3's "poor" sales for a title that sold amazingly well on Xbox? Were early adopters just not looking for racing or fighting genre titles this generation? How much can we analyse fighting game sales from this period compared to anything released after Street Fighter 4?
On Itagaki - I wasn't disputing that he was a scrub at the game. I outright said I agreed with that. What I disagreed with was the baseless characterisation that his ego as a scrub was driving his design decisions. He's a professional game designer first. That doesn't mean poor decisions can't be made but the fact that we have ANYTHING good in DOA at all you have to begrudgingly admit he was key to that too.
On sales: How do we also explain PGR3's "poor" sales for a title that sold amazingly well on Xbox? Were early adopters just not looking for racing or fighting genre titles this generation? How much can we analyse fighting game sales from this period compared to anything released after Street Fighter 4?
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Long enough that they considered the game pre-alpha, as in most of the heavy work had not even started yet. And I know what they are telling us, which is that it will be released within a year. When you put two and two toghether, there is cause for alarm, unless you believe they are arbitrarily lying... in which case there is cause for greater alarm.
Personally, I choose to believe it is simply a massive overestimation of what they can get done in a small period of time. I have spent my life watching and waiting for games to be released, and I've seen what happens when giant teams think they can tackle something large like this within a year.
Sometimes, team size just doesn't matter. Two many chefs in a kitchen fucks stuff up. Things have to be conceived, tested, balanced. This takes time. Then there is the art bottleneck... you can have ten different guys coding a characters moves properties, but only two animators to keep up with them. They move at different paces, not everything moves at full speed like clockwork, and no, most teams do NOT have enough artists to compensate for this, regardless of what you may think.
Even with management at ideal conditions and human error being minimized, there are still bottlenecks in the development process and throwing more bodies at a situation can do more harm than good. The reason they are doing two projects at once and not focusing all of their people on one is BECAUSE of that bottleneck. A year of dev time at full throttle, is not enough to create the sequel fans need and deserve. Not even if they knew what they were doing in regards to balance and design, and guess what? They don't.
Yea? Well, Shimbori-san told us that Itagaki completely changed the game, based on his personal preference, right before release, and now we have DOA 4. So how's that? Professional, right?
You would have to ask a PGR fan, I'm not one of them. What I can tell you is that typically, when a person has to choose how they are going to spend their money, they are going to go with the better option. SF4 was not an issue when DOA 4 came out, however, so that is not an excuse. The only thing stopping people from buying DOA 4 (which was, again, a console exclusive and the only real fighting game option at the time) was the fact that it was a bad game.
Of course it's speculation, I don't think anyone ever claimed to have some inside information. We were all clearly speculating on the situation and asking each other a lot of questions in the form of concerns. The problem is, we don't have a lot of information to off of and that's scary. Other game devs are really giving out a lot of info on their new games but what about Team Ninja? We're not being told anything and all we can do is speculate given the information we have.
You forget to bring up that both games are still Platinum Hits titles that still sell to this day. That means both have been on sale for the past 6 years, and yes, even through the "Free Marketing" era of Championship Gaming Series. Also, PGR had a sequel come out between those two eras, diminishing the sales of the third.
There's no black hole after the first few months of the release though a large chunk of sales come out within the first three months on an average game's lifespan. However, these are two titles that have been on the platinum hits list for the past 6 years, and have a "longer than average lifespan".
That's just talking about your comparison of a fighting game's sales with an adventure game, racing game, and first person shooter/horror game.
Personally, I like to compare it with games in its own genre: Soul Calibur IV, Tekken 6, and Street Fighter IV (not including the follow-up versions). Now, one thing to note is that all three of these titles came out when the systems were at a lower price point, had a larger market share, and were on both systems. However, DOA4 was also available for new purchase at the same time with a cheaper price (Half of the others' launch price).
Now, in general, with multi-platform Fighting games the PlayStation 3 will sell ~25-50% more units of the same game on the Xbox 360 on the first month of release. Part of it is for tradition, the other part being the hardware for each system. Once the game has been out for some time, the Xbox 360 will increase a bit in sales relative to PS3 due to the casual market.
I'm going to use the VGChartz numbers, as inaccurate as they typically are, but last time I compared them with the NPD data (the data reported for DOA4's sales in the podcast came from) they were very similar. VGChartz was a bit higher than NPD, but mainly because NPD categorizes a Limited Edition as a separate SKU which VGC does not. All are North America only and are lifetime sales values.
PS3/360
Street Fighter IV: 1.1m/1.1m - 144 weeks
Dead or Alive 3: 1.1m - 112 weeks
Soul Calibur IV's sales: 661k/884k - 107 weeks
Mortal Kombat 9: 1.02m/798k - 30 weeks
Tekken 6: 963k/569k - 105 weeks
Dead or Alive 4 (VGC value): 310k - 304 weeks
Dead or Alive Ultimate: 310k - 20 weeks (The game didn't make platinum status)
For your comparison's sake:
Project Gotham Racing 3: 530k - 306 weeks
Condemned: 336k - 306 weeks
Kameo: 310k - 306 weeks
In regards to Rikuto's comments of worry on the status of the game. Personally I don't like to consider time spent = quality spent. I've seen my share of games in development where a single day can totally change the scope of the project and make it better/worse, from various titles in production for 11 years to 6 months.
If it were just based on length of development time then Duke Nukem Forever should still be outselling Modern Warfare 3.
If it were just based on length of development time then Duke Nukem Forever should still be outselling Modern Warfare 3.
x Sypher x
Active Member
Sooo based on what you just said right there, is it safe to say that DOA4 could have been better if Itagaki had not changed it at the last minute? Also, do we even know what he changed in particular? And in knowing all this, would we still anticipate on sequels being developed?
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
I don't think time is a direct indicator of quality either.
I do however, believe there is a bare minimum of time that is required before a game can be considered complete. A game that takes too long in development indicates they were attempting to do too many things with it, and it has outgrown the tech they were building it for (DNF). You can't just throw a bunch of crap together in a short time span and expect it to stick either. Even if you don't screw the formula up completely, it WILL lack polish and that extra oomph.
The only company i recall at the moment that does this is, ironically enough, Koei with Dynasty Warriors. And just look where that's gotten them...
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
Some interesting discussion... I will continue to play devil's advocate just a bit. I broadly agree with everything said and really am making smaller points than some think
On the discussion about what needs to be done to the game and how much time we think Team Ninja has - we can't assume the worst with the info we have. Mr Wah points this out very well.
What we do know and you guys did talk about a little bit is they've communicated a little to us about DOA, but not a lot, which is because they have Ninja Gaiden to talk about and info about DOA will ramp up after its launch.
It will be a while before we have clarity around how long TN have been working on it, their focuses, but we've seen hints on twitter they've been planning new ideas for some time. Implementation of the system has likely been underway since before the TGS video, as Mr Wah has pointed out before, those builds are shown based on what was it, work from approx 2 months prior?
I understand the concerns but given what we know about the timeframe and that we know they have enough staff (by Hayashi's word) to have a full dev team on two games at a time, I don't think we need to panic about their bandwidth and certainly shouldn't make detailed assumptions about what they can and can't do in detail.
They are a top development team who know how to deliver polished games. No reason to worry at this point about CAN they do it; our place is to query WHAT they'll do - what the design decisions are.
Player input and community interaction is thankfully underway through Mr Wah and hopefully this will ramp up early in 2012.
That brings us back to the Itagaki thing. Briefly, I don't think its about his ego as a player; his decision to make changes late in development (I'm inclined to agree a poor decision, commercially if not in terms of the product compared to X05 build).
It was about his design vision for the game and his auteur notions for how DOA4 should play that drove him, not because someone beat him at the game. He's a designer not a player. He doesn't care about being a good player, he cares about the game working in the way he envisioned.
Either way, DOA4 was rushed and he had to compromise; maybe this is splitting hairs but I'm just saying its wrong to look at it as a personal play ego thing. It's a designer thing.
Sales - don't get me wrong, the number is low.
But the factors aren't as simple as comparing it to games in the same genre, because those later games were sold at different times in the cycle.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing it to Street Fighter, I'm saying any fighting game released before SF4 this generation was pushing shit uphill; the genre was brought back to light and fighting games are NOW likely to do better, not worse, because of it.
Thus, we don't really know how DOA5 will sell in this new, post SF4, more fighter-friendly/aware time, on two consoles with BIG install bases.
Soul Calibur 4's sales are all the more impressive given it's in the pre-SF4 period, but it had a much bigger install base.
I don't agree with the notion that just because DOA4 was on sale throughout this time that it should have kept selling. Everything is about DAY 1 sales. Retailer budgets, open to buy, promotion, shelf space, it's all geared around that.
I work in the entertainment wholesale business and I see it all the time, and the games industry is the worst for this
The idea that DOA4 was on sale during this period is basically irrelevant because it wouldn't flow through to retail. Do we know when it made platinum hits? Was it catalogued?
As for PGR, getting a sequel raises brand awareness at retail so you get people buying the old one cheap when they see the new one at a high price. And that was in 07!! DOA's sales window was closed way before CGS.
Also, game quality is not important to sales. The game reviewed really well, so doubly irrelevant.
Either way, it's considered an old game by retailers so hard to find. Its sales window was as a game in an unpopular genre during its lowest install base period but AFTER launch so it lost impulse sales (Itagaki's greatest mistake, changing it enough to delay it off launch).
So that means it compares to the other B launch titles more than it does to other fighters, so it did on par with that group.
The fact is, it's a different world that DOA4 was sold in to DOA5. The closest measure is Tekken which sold poorly on Xbox (maybe due to perception as a PS game?) despite being released after SF4. MK9 did well though, and you'd have to agree on the whole fighters are doing better in the post sf4 period.
What's the upshot of all this? Past sales don't help us that much given how much things have changed.
2012 is a new ball game. DOA5 needs to keep the goodwill its garnered so far with its great first trailer, it needs to be seen to be listening to its players. With a bigger, hungrier fighting game audience out there, it's better positioned than DOA4 to make its sales.
On the discussion about what needs to be done to the game and how much time we think Team Ninja has - we can't assume the worst with the info we have. Mr Wah points this out very well.
What we do know and you guys did talk about a little bit is they've communicated a little to us about DOA, but not a lot, which is because they have Ninja Gaiden to talk about and info about DOA will ramp up after its launch.
It will be a while before we have clarity around how long TN have been working on it, their focuses, but we've seen hints on twitter they've been planning new ideas for some time. Implementation of the system has likely been underway since before the TGS video, as Mr Wah has pointed out before, those builds are shown based on what was it, work from approx 2 months prior?
I understand the concerns but given what we know about the timeframe and that we know they have enough staff (by Hayashi's word) to have a full dev team on two games at a time, I don't think we need to panic about their bandwidth and certainly shouldn't make detailed assumptions about what they can and can't do in detail.
They are a top development team who know how to deliver polished games. No reason to worry at this point about CAN they do it; our place is to query WHAT they'll do - what the design decisions are.
Player input and community interaction is thankfully underway through Mr Wah and hopefully this will ramp up early in 2012.
That brings us back to the Itagaki thing. Briefly, I don't think its about his ego as a player; his decision to make changes late in development (I'm inclined to agree a poor decision, commercially if not in terms of the product compared to X05 build).
It was about his design vision for the game and his auteur notions for how DOA4 should play that drove him, not because someone beat him at the game. He's a designer not a player. He doesn't care about being a good player, he cares about the game working in the way he envisioned.
Either way, DOA4 was rushed and he had to compromise; maybe this is splitting hairs but I'm just saying its wrong to look at it as a personal play ego thing. It's a designer thing.
Sales - don't get me wrong, the number is low.
But the factors aren't as simple as comparing it to games in the same genre, because those later games were sold at different times in the cycle.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing it to Street Fighter, I'm saying any fighting game released before SF4 this generation was pushing shit uphill; the genre was brought back to light and fighting games are NOW likely to do better, not worse, because of it.
Thus, we don't really know how DOA5 will sell in this new, post SF4, more fighter-friendly/aware time, on two consoles with BIG install bases.
Soul Calibur 4's sales are all the more impressive given it's in the pre-SF4 period, but it had a much bigger install base.
I don't agree with the notion that just because DOA4 was on sale throughout this time that it should have kept selling. Everything is about DAY 1 sales. Retailer budgets, open to buy, promotion, shelf space, it's all geared around that.
I work in the entertainment wholesale business and I see it all the time, and the games industry is the worst for this
The idea that DOA4 was on sale during this period is basically irrelevant because it wouldn't flow through to retail. Do we know when it made platinum hits? Was it catalogued?
As for PGR, getting a sequel raises brand awareness at retail so you get people buying the old one cheap when they see the new one at a high price. And that was in 07!! DOA's sales window was closed way before CGS.
Also, game quality is not important to sales. The game reviewed really well, so doubly irrelevant.
Either way, it's considered an old game by retailers so hard to find. Its sales window was as a game in an unpopular genre during its lowest install base period but AFTER launch so it lost impulse sales (Itagaki's greatest mistake, changing it enough to delay it off launch).
So that means it compares to the other B launch titles more than it does to other fighters, so it did on par with that group.
The fact is, it's a different world that DOA4 was sold in to DOA5. The closest measure is Tekken which sold poorly on Xbox (maybe due to perception as a PS game?) despite being released after SF4. MK9 did well though, and you'd have to agree on the whole fighters are doing better in the post sf4 period.
What's the upshot of all this? Past sales don't help us that much given how much things have changed.
2012 is a new ball game. DOA5 needs to keep the goodwill its garnered so far with its great first trailer, it needs to be seen to be listening to its players. With a bigger, hungrier fighting game audience out there, it's better positioned than DOA4 to make its sales.