Rev_an
Active Member
that and the time it takes i guess? helena players were saying it took too long to get 3_ P
6++ Gameplay Overhaul
- Thread starter Rev_an
- Start date
Twin_T
New Member
Cap. I just experimented with it. Granted I couldn't land the timing perfectly every time, but it's literally the same situation as with Eliot's Choryo. Take one look at how fast Eliot players can get that out and that's as good a reference as any as it can possibly take to execute the input. Sounds like complaints coming from poor execution and the unwillingness to practice.
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Rev_an
Active Member
idk i'm not a helena player, they wanted it in a juggle and it's just as easy on me to replace 33p instead of having both. i'm not really bothered one way or the other, her inputs are pretty full but if you wanna make a case for the doa 6 move over the other one i'll hear you out.
Rev_an
Active Member
Added an youtube playlist and an issue tracker to the first post (except for crapo's suggestions because i can't be bothered to type out all that stuff three times, it'll be in the patchnotes if it makes it in and i'll put stuff i'm still considering for update 2 into the tracker at that time)
function test (i.e. did i not fuck up the code) should be within the week with a dev build and private testing beginning early next week. maaaaybe saturday if the capsule editing goes smoothly and my code works.
update 1 is on schedule for within 2-3 weeks, so start checking the the first post before you join lobbies after the 27th.
function test (i.e. did i not fuck up the code) should be within the week with a dev build and private testing beginning early next week. maaaaybe saturday if the capsule editing goes smoothly and my code works.
update 1 is on schedule for within 2-3 weeks, so start checking the the first post before you join lobbies after the 27th.
Twin_T
New Member
You can replace 33P since she already has 3_P... is what I want to say, but this is coming from someone who mainly plays Helena in DOA2. I figure input for that character would be best received from players who ACTUALLY play that character. In DOA2-4, you could input either to get the same result since 33 does initiate a crouch dash, just like 663.
I find 3_P to be easier for myself, since 33 inputs are hit or miss for me personally.
EDIT: Ah... one more thing. Is it possible to return the Fatal Rush strings without the Fatal Stun property? Some looks pretty cool to not be in after already being exposed to them.
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Rev_an
Active Member
there are a variety of issues with rehabilitating fatal rush including but not limited to:
coding all that is high-effort, disproportionately so compared to adding some doa 5 move like tengu's running attack
selecting matching stuns for the second and third S animation for everybody so it all stays looking right
being holdable makes those strings completely telegraphed in stun
which systems are actually preventing holds and applying the repeat fatal stun damage scaling penalty?
if the damage scaling doesn't apply anymore can you even do the whole thing in stun or will it overload?
FR decreased juggle variety on several characters, especially at the wall, and it would be worse now (or need nerfs-even more work) because wall bounds would just become former fatal juggles.
does whatever nerfed state they end up in justify the the flashy FX?
are those FX actually good aesthetic design or was fatal rush a "trailer mechanic" incongruent with the (especially visual) design of the rest of the game?
are we still mashing h+p+k four times or should ayane's be e.g. 8p+k p p k?
a bunch of those moves are 2-in-1s or more and every sub-hit is separate editing,
does the string stay as a hit-confirm? doa has some on-hits but they're usually things like a throw, teleport, or other stance not just "a string lol"
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all these issues can be addressed but it would take away a lot from other "adding moves" stuff that I think is more interesting like the dozens of old moves I could add for the same effort, or giving kasumi a sensible juggle bound, making sure characters who lost juggles to the pushcapsule neutral optimizations have a comparable option like kula 3p+k 6k, doing something with tamaki's hidden ninja moves (she has a pile of momiji animations) etc
I think the best remix thing to do with fatal rush is for the haters to actually step up and make doa 6 super, buff the damage on the string but make it an EX move that does like 100 damage.
and yet that is precisely why you removed meter from DOA6 lmao
No, you removed meter because you don't like it. You've never provided any substantive reasons for its removal outside of your own personal feelings and hatred about it. "It's never worked in other 3D games so it sucks.", like that's not an argument.
My issue from the beginning has never been about the removal of meter, but the actual thinking behind it. It's just MeTeR bAD. It's cool if you want to remove it, but why?
The criticism on meter that I believe is universally agreed on is that it fills too quickly. It's not its existence or the mechanics attached to it per se. Tone that down and maybe make BHs cost an additional meter bar.
That would be an incremental change that wouldn't upset the balance of the game so much. Removing it wholesale just brings up a whole host of other problems.
Why couldn't you just fix the things that everyone agrees to, like the pill capsule jank? Just minor fixes to refine the game and then leave everything else alone.
That would be far more persuasive to me as someone to take interest in the mod than having a ton of character balance changes from players (which I think is a colossal mistake, especially when character specialists aren't involved providing their own insight). Too late now, I guess.
My issue from the beginning has never been about the removal of meter, but the actual thinking behind it. It's just MeTeR bAD. It's cool if you want to remove it, but why?
The criticism on meter that I believe is universally agreed on is that it fills too quickly. It's not its existence or the mechanics attached to it per se. Tone that down and maybe make BHs cost an additional meter bar.
That would be an incremental change that wouldn't upset the balance of the game so much. Removing it wholesale just brings up a whole host of other problems.
Why couldn't you just fix the things that everyone agrees to, like the pill capsule jank? Just minor fixes to refine the game and then leave everything else alone.
That would be far more persuasive to me as someone to take interest in the mod than having a ton of character balance changes from players (which I think is a colossal mistake, especially when character specialists aren't involved providing their own insight). Too late now, I guess.
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Rev_an
Active Member
ok when you make doa 6 super you can figure out how to change the rate. It's also a wild ass assumption that we even know how to do that.
let's see, i can add old moves that are immediately obviously that something is different, or I can fix a bunch of literally invisible jank like the extra hurtcapsule nobody knows about or the gross push capsules that nobody knows about, or I can do... both?
i fucken hate marketing but making the game feel subtly different in a few really specific situations that don't even apply to every character and would take over an hour of play time to notice unless your were labbing those specific interactions would get no attention, no downloads, and no youtube videos from people who literally never talked to me before this project.
i've already explained why fixing meter is a fools' errand but i've seen dozens of youtube comments and twitchchat messages from people ecstatic that shit is just fucking gone. people who actually like the core mechanics of dead or alive, unlike you.
man that's a tough choice between catering to you personally or all the people who came out of the wordwork because meter is gone. You don't like the direction I and the people giving me useful/constructive feedback are taking the game and that's absolutely fine. why the fuck are you still talking about it 15 pages later? go do literally anything else with your life.
15 pages and still can't provide an explanation for its removal lol.
But no in your mind and fantasy world, meter is universally bad and everyone hates it lmao. There's actually quite a number of people in the community who don't like the mod or its direction. Heck people in this very thread agreed that removing meter isn't really the best approach (Moruma, FC, Brute, etc.).
The only "strict" rules for core mechanics are strikes, throws and holds. But even then, those mechanics change and are different depending on the game version you are talking about. Look at how everyone in DOA4 had an OH, that was a core mechanic and so is meter in DOA6.
However, the fact that meter was executed poorly, while doesn't detract from the core mechanics, it does put too much focus on the meter.
The fix for something like this is incredibly simple and easy. Many people have already suggested it, including myself: just make meter gain less.
Start by doing that. Incremental changes are the key.
Completely removing it just doesn't make sense. There is no majority opinion on meter. Emery and a few other people from some elitist clique don't speak for everyone. When you're in an echo chamber, then obviously everything seems to agree with you and your idea of the "majority" is skewed and highly contextual. Heck even killy and CrazySteady agreed with me that the issue is meter gain.
I literally would not care if meter was gone if the problems that arise for that were dealt with. But they weren't. There still exist problems in dealing with the fallout of such a huge change that you seem completely ignorant about. You also forgot that there is no SE in 6 too.
And honestly what DOA6 desperately needs are more stages...good ones at least. Add more characters, costumes, whatever. Make the game more fun.
But no in your mind and fantasy world, meter is universally bad and everyone hates it lmao. There's actually quite a number of people in the community who don't like the mod or its direction. Heck people in this very thread agreed that removing meter isn't really the best approach (Moruma, FC, Brute, etc.).
The only "strict" rules for core mechanics are strikes, throws and holds. But even then, those mechanics change and are different depending on the game version you are talking about. Look at how everyone in DOA4 had an OH, that was a core mechanic and so is meter in DOA6.
However, the fact that meter was executed poorly, while doesn't detract from the core mechanics, it does put too much focus on the meter.
The fix for something like this is incredibly simple and easy. Many people have already suggested it, including myself: just make meter gain less.
Start by doing that. Incremental changes are the key.
Completely removing it just doesn't make sense. There is no majority opinion on meter. Emery and a few other people from some elitist clique don't speak for everyone. When you're in an echo chamber, then obviously everything seems to agree with you and your idea of the "majority" is skewed and highly contextual. Heck even killy and CrazySteady agreed with me that the issue is meter gain.
I literally would not care if meter was gone if the problems that arise for that were dealt with. But they weren't. There still exist problems in dealing with the fallout of such a huge change that you seem completely ignorant about. You also forgot that there is no SE in 6 too.
And honestly what DOA6 desperately needs are more stages...good ones at least. Add more characters, costumes, whatever. Make the game more fun.
Rev_an
Active Member
learn how the game data works and tell me how to do that then. since you can't infer things let me be explicit: I don't know what part of all this shit controls meter gain rate. I don't even know if it's in the part of the game data that we can modify with alex's tools.
it's so simple and easy. where's your mod?
it's so simple and easy go fucking do it yourself.
it's so simple and easy to do literally anything else with your life.
Full Cup Bounce
New Member
I have seen hockey brawls that are less hostile than @Rev_an is coming off right now.
There are many points I could make regarding a majority of your comments over the span of this thread, not excluding your assumption that everyone in the elitist circles that you so desperately want attention from
Can you please explain, in grown-up adult words (that doesn't mean curse words), why having a meter in DOA is inherently bad? Because you keep arguing that the core of DOA6 has nothing to do with the meter, yet the core of your mod certainly does!
There are many points I could make regarding a majority of your comments over the span of this thread, not excluding your assumption that everyone in the elitist circles that you so desperately want attention from
represents the absolute heavenly truth that meter is a tool of the Devil himself.
Can you please explain, in grown-up adult words (that doesn't mean curse words), why having a meter in DOA is inherently bad? Because you keep arguing that the core of DOA6 has nothing to do with the meter, yet the core of your mod certainly does!
Rev_an
Active Member
i'm responding to incredible unceasing disrespect from rob. you can see how i respond to other people elsewhere, like crapo who i did not know two weeks ago and have no prior relationship with informing my attitude.
the core of doa is the triangle system. meter I explained in the very first post, does the spoiler not show up on mobile or something?
If you have read what I had to say about meter mechanics in the original post, then you also read the part of it where I said multiple teams of professionals failed to get it right. I understand wanting to somehow salvage meter, I do not understand thinking that I'm the guy who can solve that problem, and i absolutely don't understand the implicit opinion that other people seem to have where I'm simultaneously competent enough that it's worth anyone's time for me to try to fix meter mechanics in 3d fighters AND not competent enough to judge that the game is better without it.
I think meter is irredeemably bad, other people don't. whatever.
I think i'm not capable of making the meter system be good. other people think i should try. baffling.
Full Cup Bounce
New Member
First of all, I have never assumed you were competent enough.
Here are some games that include a meter that are considered classic fighting games and were developed by teams of professionals:
- The Art of Fighting 2 (1994)
- Super Street Fighter II Turbo (1994)
- Street Fighter Alpha (1995)
- Killer Instinct Gold (1996)
- Street Fighter III (1997)
- The King of Fighters '98 (1998)
- Real Bout Fatal Fury (1998)
So because, in your opinion, three attempts at developing a 3D fighting game with meter failed to achieve whatever your abstract definition of "competence" is, meter is inherently ungood for 3D fighting games. Good thing you weren't Thomas Edison's assistant.
Also, there have actually been more than three attempts at implementing meter in a 3D fighting game. The first was in a game called Dead or Alive 5. You might have heard of it.
If you think you can't make the meter system good (which many people agree would just involve reducing the rate at which it increases), what makes you think you can make anything else good? baffling
Rev_an
Active Member
my position has always been that meter is bad in 3D games why did you list a bunch of 2D games? i have never had anything to say about meter systems in 2D fighters.
dead or alive 5 has comeback supers, that's not the same as meter mechanics where you start with, accumulate, and have multiple things to spend a bank on. 5 vanilla didn't have PL, and PB and PL might as well be identical as game design concepts. At most it's minorly overlapping design space i guess, but doa 5 doesn't have a meter system. i'm sure you can find somebody referring to the 50% life thing as "meter" but it's fundamentally not the same.
In tag you even lose access to it if the tagged out recovery healing brings that character over 50% life. We have different more precise ways to talk about rage mechanics like that.
for the fifth fucking time we don't know where or how meter gain is controlled so if you want somebody (not me) to do that in a doa 6 mod you have to go figure out how to do it in the first place. if it's so simple and easy go do it.
you gain about 1/3 of meter on block compared to on-hit and 1/9 as the blocking player. I don't remember the rate for taking damage. Are those different rates defined separately? Are they global or per-move? You gain meter when the stage does damage, how the fuck does that work? It's probably not in the character data! I don't know and neither do you.
DOA is proven to work and be fun and good without meter, as I said in the original post. Copying that aspect of doa 2, 3, 4, and 5 is pretty easy on for my part. People have been talkign about the problems with doa 4 for 15 years, it's pretty easy to not replicate those errors. People have been talking about what was good about doa 5LR for almost a decade, and the things that it did better than 6 since the day 6 came out. Also very easy to do.
the response i've seen from everybody else besides 3 haters has been extremely positive so i'll take that as evidence that i did something right.
dead or alive 5 has comeback supers, that's not the same as meter mechanics where you start with, accumulate, and have multiple things to spend a bank on. 5 vanilla didn't have PL, and PB and PL might as well be identical as game design concepts. At most it's minorly overlapping design space i guess, but doa 5 doesn't have a meter system. i'm sure you can find somebody referring to the 50% life thing as "meter" but it's fundamentally not the same.
In tag you even lose access to it if the tagged out recovery healing brings that character over 50% life. We have different more precise ways to talk about rage mechanics like that.
for the fifth fucking time we don't know where or how meter gain is controlled so if you want somebody (not me) to do that in a doa 6 mod you have to go figure out how to do it in the first place. if it's so simple and easy go do it.
you gain about 1/3 of meter on block compared to on-hit and 1/9 as the blocking player. I don't remember the rate for taking damage. Are those different rates defined separately? Are they global or per-move? You gain meter when the stage does damage, how the fuck does that work? It's probably not in the character data! I don't know and neither do you.
DOA is proven to work and be fun and good without meter, as I said in the original post. Copying that aspect of doa 2, 3, 4, and 5 is pretty easy on for my part. People have been talkign about the problems with doa 4 for 15 years, it's pretty easy to not replicate those errors. People have been talking about what was good about doa 5LR for almost a decade, and the things that it did better than 6 since the day 6 came out. Also very easy to do.
the response i've seen from everybody else besides 3 haters has been extremely positive so i'll take that as evidence that i did something right.
The problem is a lot of yall keep asking for changes that are outside of the scope of current modding abilities no matter how many times that gets explained.
Rev isn't Team Ninja - Rev doesn't have the source code to DOA6. There's no "just change the meter building variable" button in a hex editor, you gotta find that shit.
I've been trying for 20 frigging years on and off to find the variable for freestepping in DOA3 and I'm not any closer. I've basically given up.
I'm surprised Rev was able to turn off meter at all with current tools. (Can I ask how you did that?)
Personally I think meter was a great addition to DOA6 but it needed some tweaks. But the changes I would make are outside the scope of current tools so I'm not gonna hassle him plus he's got a different non-meter vision anyway. It's his mod, let him do his thing.
There's a difference between making suggestions and being demanding. They're using publicly available tools - I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that you can make your own mod if you don't like his.
Rev_an
Active Member
thanks yeah. i'll discord message you on the technical details or maybe already did depending on the order.
rob even mentioned adding stages and characters, which literally nobody knows how to do smh. we can't even load into douglass memorial online as far as i know, or the empty version of throwdown in VS.
AlexXsWx
Active Member
To be fully fair, since last public release of my tools I have added some more functionality that allows for stuff that wasn't feasible before. I'm still procrastinating on wrapping it up and publishing. But let me know if someone (who has put effort into understanding the existing tools) wants to get that, maybe that'll bring me around to publish it sooner.
There are ai opcodes and input command opcodes that check if you have enough meter (25/50/100%), move's opcodes that consume meter ( (25/50/100%; even if you don't have enough) when the move comes out, and overall meter setting hijacked from training mode (always 0% / normal / always 100%; controlled through the .ini file).
On topic of adjusting the meter, it's most likely outside of base/character's moveset bins, so modding that would require patching into game logic. Not something new - overriding hit check feature of my mod does that - but something that requires reverse engineering effort to find that, as well as updating the .dll. I personally don't feel like hunting that anytime soon (not because it's hard, just not interesting to me), but if someone will tell me where that asm code is located, how it works, and how people want to be able to change it, I might update the dll.
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Radiance
Well-Known Member
How many current 3D fighting games actually utilize meter mechanics? Tekken only uses it for it cast of characters which are from 2D games and subjectively, we can all argue whether it's good/bad considering with meter/rage, those characters can get some pretty busted combo's (although in Tekken's current state, there are plenty of non-2D characters who are just as scary with meter mechanics). Then there's Soul Calibur VI, which arguably implements meter, imo, the best. I still find Soul Calibur VI to be one of the most exciting competitive games to watch at a high level because of the excitement the meter system brings to the game.
Personally, I think TN should have taken a similar approach with meter. Meter in DOA slows the game down rather than adding excitement but for some characters, it's needed. Perhaps, it's just that DoA is a poorly designed game.