Team Ninja Twitter

[DrDogg]

I think you guys are confusing your terminology up, causing... confusion. Might want to clarify what each term means just to be on the safe side.

Counter = Reversal = Hold
Chicken escapes a counter/reversal/hold

-Risk vs reward. Unlike TK every character has a universal hold set, is severely punished by throws and more than likely a hold will be used defensively. What skill would it really take to enter a chicken command during an attack's recovery? Every player would just buffer a chicken after an attack making Holds useless. Giving the holder a little amount of damage or some frame advantage would allow holds to have some type of defensive/strategic use.

Counters are used defensively in Tekken and while not every character has the ability to counter, when you're fighting against a Paul or Jin (or any other character with a counter), it's no different than playing a game in which every character has a counter. In fact, you can severely punish a counter in Tekken with a throw as well, it's just not a universal punish like it is in DOA. So really, the differences are minimal within the confines of this conversation. And in Tekken, the player performing the chicken inflicts a small amount of damage on the player performing the counter.

That said, have you tried to buffer a chicken in Tekken? It's not an easy thing to do during a high level match. The window is extremely small, and it's difficult to buffer the chicken command and still continue whatever series of attacks I'm doing.

The holder does not need any kind of advantage for getting his hold chickened. He gets a HUGE advantage if the counter is successful, but you want him to get an advantage even if the counter is read and chickened? That basically means that if I do an attack and you guess right on the counter, you gain the advantage no matter what. Why should that be the case?

You made a guess and tossed out a zero frame counter with a ridiculously long active window. I took measures against your potential counter, buffered a chicken, and successfully performed the technique in a very small window of opportunity... yet, you still gain the advantage?

Please help me to understand that thought process, because I'm on the verge of calling that a DOA player's mentality (zero risk if you guess right, yay guessing!), and I'm really trying to avoid that kind of accusation. That kind of thought process is what will turn players from other FGCs away from DOA5, and we don't want that.

 

[Rikuto]

I think he's imagining the chicken window being bigger than it actually is.

 

[Black Dragon]

Oh shit, I just realised something:

The crouch needs to change.

How it evades throws isn't a problem, but how it evades and blacks attacks is. Only in DOA are you vulnerable to high and low attacks DURING the execution of the crouch. No other 3D fighting game does this.

You should be able to dodge high attacks and block low attacks 1 frame into the crouch.

 

[Rikuto]

I believe you TECHNICALLY can if you crouch dash and immediately block. Fuzzy guarding, and all that.

 

[Black Dragon]

In VF for example, fuzzy guarding isn't just limited to being crouch dash-block. You can also crouch-block to fuzzy guard too.

And this is because a crouch dodges high attacks at 1 frame, enabling you to block lows at 1 frame.

DOA's crouch does this at 5.

This has been there since at least DOA2 (I haven't played DOA1 much to know if it's the same on that game). I consider it a glitch that needs to be fixed.

 

[MeanMrMustard]

Pretty sure VF and DOA crouch mechanics are the same. Crouch dashing in both games allows you to obtain a crouching state one frame faster than if you would just hold down. Unless this has changed in VF5:FS I am almost positive this is how it works.

 

[Black Dragon]

I'm not saying that VF and DOA's crouch dashing mechanics are different.

I'm saying VF and DOA's normal crouch mechanics are different.

In DOA, the crouch execution has to finish before you can block a low and/or dodge a high. So you're vulnerable during the 5 frames it takes to normal crouch - you can get hit with any attack during that period. In VF, you're only vulnerable to a high throw and mid attack during the execution of the normal crouch, ergo high and low attacks can be defended against during the 7 frames it takes to execute it.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[virtuaPAI]

DrDogg, this is what you stated earlier:

Do you mean it sounds like how Tekken counters work? If so, that's not the case at all. The average Tekken counter is 3/4/0 (the recovery could be off, but it's definitely less than 4 frames). Using a counter in Tekken is generally considered safe unless the opponent is attacking at a different height right as you counter. If you whiff a counter in Tekken, you're not going to get punished, but you also have a very small window to connect the counter, and even if it connects, the opponent can still escape.

-This right here shows that the differences (between counters and holds)are not minimal within the confines of this conversation. Holds in Doa(Not including the trash that is Doa4) are not considered generally safe, and if you whiff a hold in doa you will more than likely get punished. The fact that this is a prominent aspect of Doa will ensure that this will occur far more often than not. Again, Risk vs. Reward. The punishment of holds (not including the trash that is Doa4), is more so greater than the rewards given. Lets say chickening was added, for how doa is played, the main mixup is a mid attack or throw. The offensive player could buffer a chicken every single time he attempts a mid and have virtually no repercussions if HE GUESSED WRONG. This is why I stated:

I wouldn't mind if you can chicken, only if you receive some type of damage(minimal) for being caught......or....chickening out could result in the hold becoming a parry, with the escapee being in medium disadvantage.

-No one in their right mind will ever attempt to risk a mid hold knowing that they can be severely punished if they whiff, and possibly receive nothing for its usage. This is not a doa player mentality, but a player viewing the risk and rewards of such a technique. Thinking anything other than that is quite offensive and shows bias on your part.

 

[Rikuto]

Why don't we just stick to the idea of making counters suck in general.

That seems to be less controversial.

 

[Berzerk!]

I get what you mean but let's not say counters suck No tool in the game should suck, but we can definitely agree that holds/counters need to be toned down in their prominence as a go to tool in almost all situations that overly deforms the viability of other options.
I want counters to be a solid tool when used well, and we can agree keeping the damage low and risk for countering incorrectly to be significant, coupled with a more robust set of options with sidestep evasion and guard breaks.

 

[Rikuto]

I want counters to be a solid tool when used well, and we can agree keeping the damage low and risk for countering incorrectly to be significant, coupled with a more robust set of options with sidestep evasion and guard breaks.

So in other words, make counters suck.

Yes, I'm cool with that. No need to sugar coat it.

 

[DrDogg]

I'm not saying that VF and DOA's crouch dashing mechanics are different.

I'm saying VF and DOA's normal crouch mechanics are different.

In DOA, the crouch execution has to finish before you can block a low and/or dodge a high. So you're vulnerable during the 5 frames it takes to normal crouch - you can get hit with any attack during that period. In VF, you're only vulnerable to a high throw and mid attack during the execution of the normal crouch, ergo high and low attacks can be defended against during the 7 frames it takes to execute it.

I hope that makes sense.

It's been awhile since I played DOA4, but I don't recall not being able to block as I go from standing to crouching. And in DOA, unless you're moving or attacking, you're holding block. I can't recall any times when I was stand blocking, then shifted to crouch blocking and got hit.

I compare this to a game like MK9, where blocking is not instant. This was VERY noticeable.

-This right here shows that the differences (between counters and holds)are not minimal within the confines of this conversation. Holds in Doa(Not including the trash that is Doa4) are not considered generally safe, and if you whiff a hold in doa you will more than likely get punished. The fact that this is a prominent aspect of Doa will ensure that this will occur far more often than not. Again, Risk vs. Reward. The punishment of holds (not including the trash that is Doa4), is more so greater than the rewards given. Lets say chickening was added, for how doa is played, the main mixup is a mid attack or throw. The offensive player could buffer a chicken every single time he attempts a mid and have virtually no repercussions if HE GUESSED WRONG. This is why I stated:

No, I still disagree. For the confines of this conversation, we're only talking about the viability of chickens and what happens after a successful chicken. Under that limited discussion, the two games are very similar.

Have you played Tekken at a high level and tried buffering a chicken every time you attack? It's not something that's easy to do. If this same technique was put in DOA4 (we have to go off of DOA4) it would be very difficult to buffer a chicken and still continue your combo if the opponent doesn't attempt a counter. So it's not something you can just buffer every time you attack.

-No one in their right mind will ever attempt to risk a mid hold knowing that they can be severely punished if they whiff, and possibly receive nothing for its usage. This is not a doa player mentality, but a player viewing the risk and rewards of such a technique. Thinking anything other than that is quite offensive and shows bias on your part.

Have you played DOA4? That's pretty much what happens in almost every single match that's ever been played. People risk counters all the time. It's how the game is played. It's the main focus of the game. My opponent is going to attack me, I'll risk a counter. I just got hit, now I'm stunned... I'll risk a counter. That counter missed and I'm stunned again... I'll risk another counter. I just hit the wall and I'm stunned... I'll risk a counter.

The whole point, which Rikuto and Berzerk have already stated, is that in order for DOA5 to be accepted by the greater FGC, the game cannot rely on counters as the most viable option in almost any situation. Adding chickens is one possible way to fix this issue (not saying it's the best way, just a possible way), but if the countering player STILL had advantage after his counter is chickened, we're right back where we started.

Now you can take my comments as offensive if you like. I did not mean for them to be taken that way. I'm just stating my opinion as someone who greatly enjoys other fighting games, sees the flaws in DOA4, and would like to see DOA5 succeed in the competitive scene with the proper adjustments.

 

[Black Dragon]

It's been awhile since I played DOA4, but I don't recall not being able to block as I go from standing to crouching. And in DOA, unless you're moving or attacking, you're holding block. I can't recall any times when I was stand blocking, then shifted to crouch blocking and got hit.

I haven't played DOA4 for a while either, but the non-instant crouch stuck in my head because the same thing is in DOA3, and I recall testing this on Sparring using Ryu as CPU doing 6PK. Try to block the mid and dodge the high immediately, and you'll get hit by the kick.

...

I'm gonna slip the disc in just to see if I'm correct on this one.

 

[Rikuto]

I sometimes honestly wonder how a system would work if you could chicken a persons chicken, and then they could chicken your chicken's chicken, and there would be an infinite number of chicken oriented comebacks all with like a 1 or 2 frame window.

It would probably look like some sort of retard slapping match.

 

[DrDogg]

I haven't played DOA4 for a while either, but the non-instant crouch stuck in my head because the same thing is in DOA3, and I recall testing this on Sparring using Ryu as CPU doing 6PK. Try to block the mid and dodge the high immediately, and you'll get hit by the kick.

Again, it's been awhile since I've played DOA4, but I remember being able to block Busa's 6P, then duck under the following K. I'm almost positive I've seen that in tournament play either at DID, WCG or CGS. It's definitely not something you can do online, but I have distinct memories of that being possible in a lagless situation.

 

[Black Dragon]

I've just tested this. Played as Ryu and was using 6PK. CPU's 1st action = standing guard. 2nd action = crouching guard.

The kick successfully hits while CPU is executing crouch.

 

[Raansu]

I've just tested this. Played as Ryu and was using 6PK. CPU's 1st action = standing guard. 2nd action = crouching guard.

The kick successfully hits while CPU is executing crouch.

Erm...thats because the CPU in sparring has delays between actions.

 

[DrDogg]

Which brings up another very important point. The training mode in DOA5 must to be good.

MK9 is a viable tournament game, but the terrible training mode really turns away a lot of potential competitive players.

At the very least, there needs to be a proper record function so that I can make the dummy do ANYTHING I want for roughly 10 seconds. It doesn't matter what else training mode may or may not have, without that record function it's limited.

 

[Black Dragon]

I played Versus with my brother to see if this glitch exists.

And yes, you can dodge the kick in Ryu's 6PK after blocking 6P.

Then I tried Ryu's PK. The kick got him everytime he blocked P and tried to duck the kick.

There's definitely a problem with the crouch.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I played Versus with my brother to see if this glitch exists.

And yes, you can dodge the kick in Ryu's 6PK after blocking 6P.

Then I tried Ryu's PK. The kick got him everytime he blocked P and tried to duck the kick.

There's definitely a problem with the crouch.

It's not a glitch, the transition is why the low holds had faster recovery, as returning to standing from a low hold made it impossible to neutral guard in similar time as the standing holds.