Backturn guard speed

[Extra]

I was doing some testing and posting in the Akira section, and I think this might be useful for everyone.

Some background first:
(All testings are done with COM reaction on Guard All and Stagger Escape on Fastest)
Akira's on CH is +15 frames according to his frame data, and leaves his opponent backturned. We've been trying to find exactly which moves are guaranteed afterwards.
So far, I've found that a perfectly buffered will connect as a combo according to the system (where it says "2 hit combo" under your health bar). That move is i13 (hits on the 14th frame). A , i14 frames, will not register as a combo, but the CPU is unable to guard it in time.

From this, we can draw the conclusion that the person being hit is free to act on the final frame (in this case, the 15th frame).

So, my hypothesis is there's a small amount of window where it takes the opponent to "turn around" and guard. Long story short, from my testing I found it's exactly 6 frames (able to guard on the 6th frame after being "free"). So for Akira, any move that's faster than i18 will connect after a CH , and any move slower than i19 will be guarded.

I was talking to Mr. Wah and he added some further information:
Bass' BT ground pick up is +11 frames. A afterwards is not guaranteed (i16, which puts it 7 frames after opponent is "free to act" on frame 11), while a is guaranteed (i14, 5 frames after opponent is free). This seems to correspond with my own testing.

So please share your experiences and tests if possible. It would be great to be certain of this.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Actually, i was incorrect about his BT pick up. It was +10 in the old days, but now it's +9.

The 6K is still guaranteed after 214H+P 6H+P and that leaves you at +11.

 

[Prince Adon]

I believe Ayane gets a free 4K ground bounce juggle after doing 6,4 H+P. Haven't looked into the frame count.

 

[Extra]

I believe Ayane gets a free 4K ground bounce juggle after doing 6,4 H+P. Haven't looked into the frame count.

You are correct, the is free. I just looked at the frame data, is +16, while is i16. In theory, you should be able to connect a move that's i19.

 

[Goro Hazuki]

Yeah, Extra and I have had a long back and forth about this. Lol
One thing to note is that for some moves, the distance of the BT stun is further in closed stance versus when in open stance. So that's one thing to think about when exploring your own character's moves.
i.e) back to Akira's example, doing a CH in closed stance will lead to opponent to be too far away to connect a , but it connects just fine from open stance. (Obviously, links that don't depend on closed/open stance and that actually give further hit opportunities are much better).

But here's another question, does anyone know how many frames it takes to do the step away turn from BT? My concern is that if just a couple of frames get the opponent away, then we might have a tad bit less then the extra 6 frame window mentioned.

 

[Matt Ponton]

But here's another question, does anyone know how many frames it takes to do the step away turn from BT? My concern is that if just a couple of frames get the opponent away, then we might have a tad bit less then the extra 6 frame window mentioned.

If it's anything like the previous DOAs prior to DOA4, it's the same speed but the hurt box is pushed further away due to the step. So they could avoid an attack that would only hit on the first or second frame after disadvantage, depending on range of course.

 

[DrDogg]

I'm a little confused. You say that Akira's attack is +15 with the opponent BT. If the opponent was not BT, you'd only be able to connect an i13 attack at best. You're saying that it takes 6 frames to turn around and block, but that Akira only gets an attack faster than i18 (so i17 or better). That would indicate that it takes 4 frames to turn around, not 6.

I tested this while I was writing the guide and I think I came to the conclusion that it depends on the stun and the recovery of the attack that caused or extended the stun. I don't recall it being a set number. I could be wrong though, I was working on a lot of things during the time I dabbled with this.

 

[Goro Hazuki]

If it's anything like the previous DOAs prior to DOA4, it's the same speed but the hurt box is pushed further away due to the step. So they could avoid an attack that would only hit on the first or second frame after disadvantage, depending on range of course.

Thanks Mr.Wah, that's what I felt was happening. In theory, the opponent could evade the attack if the hit box moves far enough.

I tested this while I was writing the guide and I think I came to the conclusion that it depends on the stun and the recovery of the attack that caused or extended the stun. I don't recall it being a set number. I could be wrong though, I was working on a lot of things during the time I dabbled with this.

Well, Extra and I have been testing primarily with Akira's stuns. But the recovery seems to be consistent with Bass (according to the above). This is an interesting topic to me because it does somewhat open up the turn around stun game potential.
Any more insight on this is always appreciated.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I'm a little confused. You say that Akira's attack is +15 with the opponent BT. If the opponent was not BT, you'd only be able to connect an i13 attack at best. You're saying that it takes 6 frames to turn around and block, but that Akira only gets an attack faster than i18 (so i17 or better). That would indicate that it takes 4 frames to turn around, not 6.

I tested this while I was writing the guide and I think I came to the conclusion that it depends on the stun and the recovery of the attack that caused or extended the stun. I don't recall it being a set number. I could be wrong though, I was working on a lot of things during the time I dabbled with this.

As I stated, Bass' 6K is guaranteed on an opponent after 214H+P 6H+P. Anything slower is guarded. Since 6K hits on the 15th frame and the throw advantage is +11, either the guard turn is 6 frames if the opponent starts turning around on frame 11 and gets hit on frame 15 but not 16, or we take your -2 calculations and say turning around is 8 frames as they would start to be able to turn around on frame 9.

I truly believe that there's a difference in throw frame advantage and guard break advantage in terms of what frame the player can begin guarding.

I'm not disagreeing with you by the way, just reporting my findings:
(1) Bass' 214H+P 6H+P (Kitchen Push) gives him +11 frame advantage according to the counter
(2) Bass' 6K will hit an opponent holding the Guard button after his Kitchen Push.
(3) Any of Bass' attacks that are slower than 6K and hit mid will be guarded
(4) The opponent is right in front of Bass after the frame advantage, making it impossible to confuse a miscalculation due to range

 

[Batcommander]

Actually I think Dogg is right, it's only 4 frames from BT to guard.

Lisa's BT throws give her +10, but she can't land any i14 moves after it.

 

[Extra]

I'm going to elaborate a bit more on my findings:

1) I believe the way the frame data is presented is a little odd.
For a move like Akira's CH , the frame data says +15. But in a practical sense, that's wrong, because it's actually +14, i.e. any move that's i13 (hits on the 14th frame) or faster will combo, but any move that's i14 (hits on the 15th frame) will NOT combo because the opponent is free to act on the 15th frame.
I also tested this with another of Akira's moves, his sit down stun. According to the frame data, the move is +19 at fastest recovery. In actuality, only a move that's i17 or faster (such as his , which is i17) will connect, a move that's i18 (such as his 1 frame knee or ) that hits on the 19th frame WILL GET BLOCKED. This is because the opponent is free to act/block on frame 19.

2)

You're saying that it takes 6 frames to turn around and block, but that Akira only gets an attack faster than i18 (so i17 or better).

I apologize if I was unclear, I actually meant any attack that is i18 OR faster will connect (so i18 WILL connect), it's i19 or slower that won't connect. And that ends up being 6 frames. Also, the opponent is able to block ON the 6th frame, which means in a practical sense you only get a +5 frame window to hit.

I hope this picture can demonstrate this more clearly:

Lisa's BT throws give her +10, but she can't land any i14 moves after it.

Of course not, because an i14 move is already 6 frames after +10.