Help me understand this game

[Inertia]

Hello all, first time poster here. I just picked up this game. I'm not really new to the series but I just started playing fighting games more competitively about last year after MK9 came out. I felt compelled to post here because I'm struggling coming to terms with the flow of this game.

So, the first thing I've noticed, is that there seems to be hardly any (if any) strikes that leave you neutral on block. What I take from this is that since after every exchange (even safe) you are left at disadvantage and basically are forced into a mixup situation where either you opponent is guaranteed a strike or throw? How can you maintain pressure with this being the case? But, being on the other side of that situation isn't necessarily better as you could eat a hold or possibly a full combo? Apart from a move/string being safe or unsafe, your options seems pretty much the same. Strike, hold/block, or throw.

So all things being equal, it seems to me that most situations come down to either a big guess/random outcome or it becomes a footsie/spacing game. Is this pretty close or am I missing the big picture here?

 

[Raansu]

Welcome to DoA, you don't need help understanding as you pretty much just figured it out the biggest flaw of DoA.

 

[WebHead]

then use moves that dont leave you at a disadvantage kid, every fighting game has guessing, virtua fighter does too, its no different

 

[Inertia]

then use moves that dont leave you at a disadvantage kid, every fighting game has guessing, virtua fighter does too, its no different

I've never played Virtua Fighter and am 29. Go troll somewhere else. I expect guessing in fighting games. It's called mix-ups. It's the heart and soul of most fighters. I stated my questions clearly in my first post. Yes, I have realistic expectations and am just asking for clarification. I'm not complaining or trolling. Thanks.

 

[Tones]

Pretend to use strings.

 

[DR2K]

then use moves that dont leave you at a disadvantage kid, every fighting game has guessing, virtua fighter does too, its no different

Almost every move has disadvantage. . .

 

[WebHead]

listen kid, when u complete a string ur taking a risk that the other kid is gonna guess wrong and unblock and attempt to trade.

u dont have to take risks if you dont wana, understand?

 

[WebHead]

Almost every move has disadvantage. . .

the only moves with disadvantages are the ones where you can get safe grabbed and this game took a shitload out from doa4. if u cant get safegrabbed then u have sooo many options, sidestep to evade mids, low sweep to evade highs... kid

 

[DR2K]

the only moves with disadvantages are the ones where you can get safe grabbed and this game took a shitload out from doa4. if u cant get safegrabbed then u have sooo many options, sidestep to evade mids, low sweep to evade highs... kid

No, any move that leaves you at - frames is disadvantage. Which is most.

 

[WebHead]

No, any move that leaves you at - frames is disadvantage. Which is most.

how long have u been going to the gym bro

 

[DR2K]

how long have u been going to the gym bro

2-3 years. Forgot.

 

[CyberEvil]

Jesus there are some stupid posts in here.

Blockstrings are not important in this game. Generally the only purpose they serve is to bait out a hold. If you notice someone guarding a lot, that's when you start to throw, which will condition them to start just throwing things out. This game is predicated on guessing, both your own and trying to control your opponent's guesses, and the mind games revolve almost exclusively around that. Every character has safe moves and strings, though some have significantly more than others; you just have to learn them.

 

[Prince Adon]

Jesus there are some stupid posts in here.

And yeah with these people we're supposed to build?

Anyways on topic. Pretty much what CE said. Use strings to bait. Learn how to use the stun game and bait out holds that can lead into hi counter throws, or launchers. Also will help you with critical burst/power blow game. Every character have safe/unsafe stuff. Some more useful than others. Once you get the core of the game down I'm sure you'll be fine.

 

[Nereus]

the thing about this game is the fact that unlike other fighters you actually punish ALOT of strings if not all the unsafe strings with a Grab.... and the reason why strings may be unsafe on hit as well is because you usually get counter hits... anything that's say -5 or more on block can probably be grab-punished depending on the character's grabs themselves. What really bugs me about this game is the fact that Jann Lee's does damage on close hit but on block it's -4 (pretty much unpunishable)

 

[Inertia]

Thanks for everyone's input so far. But, to be clear. I'm not really to concerned about safe/unsafe so much as general disadvantage from nearly all moves/strings. It just seems that there is no way to maintain pressure after a blocked move. I mean I spent about a day in the lab and couldn't really find anything closer than -3 on block.

Anytime any move is blocked, the striking advantage is given to the defender and the overall situation is more or less reset. Assuming perfect inputs (which is possible at high level) on both ends (disregard high/low mixups) this reduces the game to random chance (either party can eat damage at this point) or it becomes a spacing game where timing and patience prevails. (i.e. just outspacing a move to bait a wiff and going in for full punish)

 

[CyberEvil]

Nah, I guess I wasn't clear enough. You are playing in your opponent's head the whole time, more so than other fighters. You have to bank on the fact that your move that they just blocked has a follow up and that they will either respect it or not. In other words, if you're throwing out a single unsafe strike, you're playing wrong, plain and simple. If you're attacking a blocking opponent, and your strike is not both fast and safe, you're playing wrong. See where I'm going with that?

 

[Skilletor]

Thanks for everyone's input so far. But, to be clear. I'm not really to concerned about safe/unsafe so much as general disadvantage from nearly all moves/strings. It just seems that there is no way to maintain pressure after a blocked move. I mean I spent about a day in the lab and couldn't really find anything closer than -3 on block.

Anytime any move is blocked, the striking advantage is given to the defender and the overall situation is more or less reset. Assuming perfect inputs (which is possible at high level) on both ends (disregard high/low mixups) this reduces the game to random chance (either party can eat damage at this point) or it becomes a spacing game where timing and patience prevails. (i.e. just outspacing a move to bait a wiff and going in for full punish)

Nah, you're right. You're pretty much just guessing whether or not your opponent will finish a string in the neutral game. It gives the false appearance of pressure.

the only moves with disadvantages are the ones where you can get safe grabbed and this game took a shitload out from doa4. if u cant get safegrabbed then u have sooo many options, sidestep to evade mids, low sweep to evade highs... kid

Didn't you make a thread about not knowing frame data?

 

[Raansu]

Nah, I guess I wasn't clear enough. You are playing in your opponent's head the whole time, more so than other fighters. You have to bank on the fact that your move that they just blocked has a follow up and that they will either respect it or not. In other words, if you're throwing out a single unsafe strike, you're playing wrong, plain and simple. If you're attacking a blocking opponent, and your strike is not both fast and safe, you're playing wrong. See where I'm going with that?

You don't get what he's saying... The fact remains that 99% of attacks in this game are negative on block. In the end this just makes fighting a trade between attacks, i.e. random, i.e. the core flaw with DoA. The problem is doubled when holds are introduced.

 

[Inertia]

Nah, I guess I wasn't clear enough. You are playing in your opponent's head the whole time, more so than other fighters. You have to bank on the fact that your move that they just blocked has a follow up and that they will either respect it or not. In other words, if you're throwing out a single unsafe strike, you're playing wrong, plain and simple. If you're attacking a blocking opponent, and your strike is not both fast and safe, you're playing wrong. See where I'm going with that?

Again, not referring to safe/unsafe. I'm talking frame advantage. Consider the following:

Two players and both are playing Zack. Zach has a standing P that is a 10 frame move and when blocked leaved him at -2 frames. Here are the options for both players after this exchange

Player 1 Throws out a standing P and Player 2 Blocks.

Player 1 (Attacker)
-Attack Again. This can be problematic because you are at a 2 frame disadvantage and even your fastest move can be beaten out by a standing P or a 6P.
-Read the followup and block. This results in a free throw attempt by your opponent.
-Read the followup and hold (hit level dependand as the opponent now has 2 hit level attacks that are guarenteed)
-Take the chance that P2 will be blocking/hold and go for the grab.
-Do some form of movement that can get you out of the way in less than 8 frames for high hit level or 9 frames total on mid hit level.

Player 2 (Defender)
-Attack. A standing P or 6P is a guarenteed hit level mix up. as either of these moves will come out before the opponents move can impact.
-Read a followup and block. Not even really needed as you now have 2 attacks that will hit against anything but a defensive move.
-Read a followup and hold. Again, an option but not really in your favor.
-Go for the grab. Since you have the guarenteed standing P or 6P this is in your favor as well.
-Move freely as you have 12 frames before the fastest high attack and 13 before the fastest mid.

Result: Player 2, after blocking, now has the same options as Player 1 with slight advantage in that an attack vs attack option will almost always come out in his favor.

The real question now becomes: How can you condition your opponent to respect certain safe moves when they are always given better options and the end result is just a reset of these same conditions? It seems like it is just a back and forth game until someone decides to throwout something unsafe. In which case you can go for the punish. How do you mount any sort of continuing pressure when everytime you are blocked you lose all advantage in the best case or are punished at worse case depending on move? Doesn't this remove much opportunity for strategy?

And I just saw that there are many moves that are punishable on hit? what is that about?

 

[Raansu]

How do you mount any sort of continuing pressure when everytime you are blocked you lose all advantage in the best case or are punished at worse case depending on move? Doesn't this remove much opportunity for strategy?

You don't. Simply put its false pressure using string delays and free canceling strings.