Online vs. Offline in DOA5: DOA4 All Over Again...

[X51]

I suck at any fighting game but I know that the closer to the original arcade the gamming system is the better to prove your true skill. That's a fact. BTW, some TVs also lag, if you're used to X lag and then play a tournament in a Y lag TV you need to adapt a bit, but this is easy and you can do it with a couple of matches.

 

[zYN]

A bad player is just not equipped with enough knowledge or experience to comprehend the differences. You can explain it a million times but without that basic comprehension they CANNOT understand.

Understanding this has got nothing to do with how good or bad of a player you are. It's just a question of whether you're equipped with a little bit of reasoning, logic and reading comprehension. Don't try to make it out to be something that it really isn't.

 

[SilverKhaos]

Pretty much, two things here.

1) Online does count. It just has lag that can screw things up. But that doesn't mean all player skill goes out the window. And what THAT means, is that no, you don't get to just claim "online doesn't count" to make excuses for when you lose. Because hey, guess what, misreads happen offline, too. Only when a match is unbearably laggy to the point where you can't even move, does it not count. But you don't get to just call mulligan because of a misread here and there, or because the framerate is lower. If you can't compensate for variables, thats on you, it doesn't mean the game sucks. And since half the point of DOA is that constant "X Factor", if you can't account for that, then you probably shouldn't be trying to play DOA, online, or offline.

2) Online community is generally better than offline, since the "ragers" are unique to the FGC in that they are present in both offline AND online. I mean, you can just look through this site (or this thread) and see that a lot of the "offline" players are elitist, and that turns a lot of people off from caring to try local tourneys and stuff. You get more "regular people" online, who are generally a LOT friendlier than the standard tourneygoer.

Aka, yes, online can be laggy. But "lag" doesn't mean "unplayable." Lag can range anywhere from minor framerate to completely unplayable. But unless its UNPLAYABLE, you don't get to just call mulligan and say online doesn't count, and player skill online means nothing. Just because you can't do your standard combos doesn't mean the game sucks, it means you do, switch tactics and adapt. If one thing doesn't work, try another. Its only when NOTHING works, that it goes into "doesn't count" territory. And "missed the timing" doesn't fall into "doesn't count" territory.

Online counts, AND offline counts. The only time online doesn't count is when it is so laggy the framerate is borderline zero, and when you press a button, nothing happens. Like I said, actually unplayable. And if that comes up, its on YOU and the opponent, that's your internet connection, do your part and fix it so you can play online normally with everybody else.

 

[Raansu]

No, online does not count and will NEVER count. Why should X player get any sort of credit playing in an unstabable environment beating on random players while Y player spends his hard earned money and traveled to a tournament and COMPETED against the TOP DoA players and PROVED his skill.

Online will never count, you will never get any credit or merit for online play. It's a casual environment where you can get some basic practice in, but to try and make any sort of claim that you are the "best so and so" and have never left your couch means NOTHING.

 

[WebHead]

ransu if i go to final round im taunting u and stomping ur body non stop

 

[Raansu]

Im not going to be at FR so uhhh, have fun taunting nobody I guess?

 

[J.D.E.]

I edited my very 1st post. Just felt that I needed to.

 

[J.D.E.]

This definitely does "need" to be addressed once more. Because the majority of who play this game here at FSD, DOAW, and online in general have a very awkward and seemingly cocky mindset and mentality of themselves from just playing online a lot. Online rank, grade points, and latency do not make anyone a good player.

This is a perfect example of what I mean and what's being talked about; http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/omaster-legendo-experience-on-dead-or-alive-4-5.2220/

I mean, sure, there are definitely folks who play this game and have that mentality of wanting to be a better player. JDE, Aelivia, HiguraShiki and Gill Hustle are examples of those who have a good mindset of becoming better players.

Online is totally fine for learning the game, but there are still a lot of folks who are in the dark about it, and how different things actually are offline (in general, not just in DOA). It needs to be addressed all over again and people need to realize that it's just a simple fact.

Yeah there's other games that can be just AS bad. MK9 1st online match on PS3 when I was learning Kitana (my main that I'll play in MK9 events). I got cussed out for using fan combos (25-40% damage moves) by some random online Scorpion player. He talked about his matches he recorded & how he'd beat me etc. But this ain't the 1st time. Anyways ppl in that community or play the game thinks it should be justified too.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Contradictions everywhere.

Your post really doesn't make any sense...

You "attempt" explaining how online play counts for something, while at the same time, explain how it actually doesn't count, lol. It cannot be both, it's either one or the other. You can play online as much as you like (in any game for that matter). But all of your online wins from online lobbies do not give anyone any credibility of being some pro-claimed player you really aren't. This is not just for the Dead or Alive community, this is for any gaming community, period (video gaming and TCGs alike).

An official offline setting for any game or TCG is where things will get you any definite recognition as a competitive player. It's definitely true that top/high level players play their game(s) online as well. But it's usually to practice with one another or other players from time to time or to perhaps support some type of event of some sort. The same can be said about those who play TCGs competitively and decide to play test their deck online before going to events (I do this every week).

No one isn't trying to say that online play is terrible and that those who play online are terrible (you won't even see that in DrDogg's OP if you actually read it). The message that people are trying to get across is that you can only rightfully say you're "so n so" if you prove it where it matters.

I can consistently make top 4 (or win) at my Yugioh locals every weekend. But until I actually top a YCS, I have no recognition as a top competitor within the YGO community, like Billy Brake, for example.

Until you prove you're as good as you say you are on official grounds. You're still going to be looked at as a regular player. This is not elitism, and it has nothing to do with it. It's just how things are done. If you want to be worthy of recognition, you must earn it. It is never handed down to you, nor should it ever it be.

 

[WebHead]

somebodys getting taunted, black mamba is for sure for attacking my body non stop in ranked match 1 month ago in horrible lag, oh boy i cant wait!

(i wonder if any kid would get really angry and try to 1 v 1 me)

 

[Sam Sultan]

I'm gonna add to my last post because it sounds a little condescending.

I play Mila, and I know for a fact that a good portion of players don't know how to play her because she's new. Not to take anything from either of the players, but there are still a lot of unknowns in DOA5.

Also, the level of play in DOA has never been very high outside like 4-5 people. At DID 2 of those people came out above E-mann, and PL definitely didn't know his match ups.

At NEC people didn't know what to do against Helena.

Wait and see if these players keep placing top when the game's been out for a while before you judge. (Especially in a game where the more solid player doesn't get rewarded the way they should)

I agree with you that the game is new and people might have trouble fighting against some new characters. And i could understand if you made this statement and you referred to an pre-launch tournament or the release party tournament. But Mamba(who i would assume knows his main character pretty well)lost to bladez very badly when he picked Helena. As a conclusion to the later i would say that it wasn't the character knowledge that made Mamba lose rather it was the skill difference between the two players. And let me add that bladez played the same way against Mamba as he did against swifteye, meaning unsafe. And even tough mamba is a top offline player and knows the character he didn't or couldn't use his let's say "offline options" which he probably couldn't have been able to use online. So why didn't he use his offline options and punish the heck out of bladez?

Please read the first post before you reply. I already answered your question and your post adds absolutely nothing to the conversation. Here's my response to you, quoted from the OP.





Also, it's not impossible for an online player to be good. That was not what was stated in the OP. The issue is that a large number of online players assume that they're a top player because of online wins and only online wins. They think their online accomplishments have real meaning. EMann and Xbladez were not vocal about how good of a player they are. They let their offline accomplishments make those statements. Because while it's not impossible for an online player to be good, there are A LOT of online players that are not good, but still do well online.

First of all online players who aren't that good offline also aren't that good online. If i'm mistaking on the later part could you please give me someone as an example? About the top online players who claim to be good and by saying that they shouldn't claim that hey are good just because of the online play you are again saying that online is not a good measure of skill so my previous response is still an answer to this statement.
Basically what i'm trying to say is there might be differences between online and offline but where is the prove that this differences actually make online wins less significant than offline wins. Just like you said DrDogg, most of the offline players play the same way offline as they do online(thus meaning that they don't really use the tools which are like you say available to them offline and not online) so given the connection is good between me and a top player why would a win for either side would be insignificant? A prove to prove me wrong would be a top online player showing up to an offline tournament and getting his ass kicked because he can't use his online tactics. And thus far there is no such prove only the opposite. Every online player who showed up offline seem to be able to do very well even tough they are fighting the same way the do online.

 

[Deleted member 473]

Lmao this thread is hilarious. What happen to just playing games for fun? Thinking about who is better than somebody else would create more tension in the DOA community. Team Ninja didn't give me a handbook of who are the top players and what not to do/claim in this community. So I say everybody in the DOA community is a top player!

Thats what i thought playing games was about, FUN not about whos top player and who is top tier and all this other bull. When are we gonna snap out of this nonsense? When were old and its too late, or are we gonna do it NOW?! Thats the question we should all ask ourselves..

 

[Sam Sultan]

As of now, offline is the only place where you can say that things are 'official', where you can win some actual money, get 'status' and so on. That's the standard for fighting games. That'll probably stay that way for a while. Not because it requires more skill, but because that's where things can properly be verified by multiple parties and because that's how it has been decided, and for good reason since reliability and consistency is important. I just wish the whole 'skill' talk was left out in the OP, because it's not about actual skill at all (skill being defined as the ability to do something well). It's about the way people think skill should be measured in this game. You can find examples in this thread already. Look at iHajinShinobi's post. It's about how skill should be measured. Skill itself is inaccessible. Sadly, the whole skill talk coming from offline players, almost always sounds as if they think they are superior to everyone else, which really is a turn-off.

I think we should all agree on what is stated above. Let's agree that online has it's own meaning giving a good connection between two players and thus is online not meaningless, but if you want to claim a title or recognition you should enter a tournament and prove everybody that you are the best and until you haven't done that you got no right to claim anything.

 

[Raansu]

First of all online players who aren't that good offline also aren't that good online. If i'm mistaking on the later part could you please give me someone as an example? About the top online players who claim to be good and by saying that they shouldn't claim that hey are good just because of the online play you are again saying that online is not a good measure of skill so my previous response is still an answer to this statement.
Basically what i'm trying to say is there might be differences between online and offline but where is the prove that this differences actually make online wins less significant than offline wins. Just like you said DrDogg, most of the offline players play the same way offline as they do online(thus meaning that they don't really use the tools which are like you say available to them offline and not online) so given the connection is good between me and a top player why would a win for either side would be insignificant? A prove to prove me wrong would be a top online player showing up to an offline tournament and getting his ass kicked because he can't use his online tactics. And thus far there is no such prove only the opposite. Every online player who showed up offline seem to be able to do very well even tough they are fighting the same way the do online.

It's a simple concept and it baffles me that people can't get it and seem to constantly veer off into a different direction with the argument. Why should people who sit on their ass and play online get any credit at all? The player that spends his money to get off his ass, travel and COMPETE in a TOURNAMENT are the ones who get recognition. If I claimed to be the best wide receiver in all of the NFL but never got drafted into the NFL would that hold any merit? Fuck no. It's the same concept with online vs. offline. If you went offline and proved yourself by competing against the best then by all means you will get some credit, but if you never travel and remain an online warrior then you will be ignored and rightfully so.

If you're an online warrior and have never taken your ass offline then you need to either put up and travel or STFU, simple as that.

/thread

 

[NightAntilli]

*long post*

Exactly my point. Let me put it in a different way...


When offline players talk about 'skill', they by default define skill as "the ability to play DOA5 well offline". When online players talk about skill, they usually define it as "the ability to play DOA5 well", without the offline part. When an offline player says to an online player that you can't measure your skill with online, he means "offline is the most reliable way to determine who plays better", the online player understands it as "you don't have the ability to play DOA5 well because you play online". Obviously this causes some form of resentment, and they'll reply with "of course I have skill", meaning "I win in DOA5 therefore I have the ability to play it well", and they won't get what you're trying to explain.

This is again, about the way of measurement. People don't get that they're using a different language and are talking past each other. That's why the word 'skill' is kind of dangerous to throw around. Skill is directly dependent on the environment you're in. The change in environment changes the variables of what skill is. Skill offline is different than skill online. That offline is a better measurement for skill is obvious due to its consistency, where online varies constantly. However, online players come from the perspective that online is also part of the game, and that no one has the right to tell them their 'skill' (measured by online winnings by their standard) doesn't matter when they worked hard to win online.

Like you said, it is a different metagame, however, it's still the game and they don't like to hear that their perspective is useless. Online players will recognize other online players (on occasion since their ego seems to be through the roof). Offline players obviously recognize other offline players. Things get heated when an online player wants recognition from offline players and in rare cases the other way around, because they have different standards for what skill is. This is why the whole 'skill' talk needs to be toned down. People will not respond well to it, and it's better to explain how skill should be officially measured for the game rather than talking about having skill on itself. The difference between the two approaches is subtle, but very significant. Although this measuring of skill is what people have been trying to explain, it still often comes over as "you play offline therefore you have no skill", and that is not working and will not work. Recognition and skill are also two different things as well, despite them being intertwined, but that's another story for another time.

 

[Sam Sultan]

It's a simple concept and it baffles me that people can't get it and seem to constantly veer off into a different direction with the argument. Why should people who sit on their ass and play online get any credit at all? The player that spends his money to get off his ass, travel and COMPETE in a TOURNAMENT are the ones who get recognition. If I claimed to be the best wide receiver in all of the NFL but never got drafted into the NFL would that hold any merit? Fuck no. It's the same concept with online vs. offline. If you went offline and proved yourself by competing against the best then by all means you will get some credit, but if you never travel and remain an online warrior then you will be ignored and rightfully so.

If you're an online warrior and have never taken your ass offline then you need to either put up and travel or STFU, simple as that.

/thread

This has nothing to do with anything i have said you are just saying something without even reading what i wrote or understanding what i'm talking about. You make stupid comparison, you are comparing the discussion about whether the differences in online and offline play is significant enough to alter the outcome of the match between two players with a dump statement that you make quote " If I claimed to be the best wide receiver in all of the NFL but never got drafted into the NFL would that hold any merit? Fuck no" I hope you can see that this is in no way a representation of the online vs offline discussion and start reading trough the thread carefully before you respond to anything.
I'm not picking the side of online players here i'm simply trying to understand why the results of the tournaments contradict the statement made in the OP. From your reaction in any thread about online vs offline or something similar it always seem that you think just because you spend money on going to tournaments and online players don't, they don't deserve to be getting any credit for there online play. This is of course no legit reason to not give online players any kind of recognition.
Since there is no prove for the fact that the differences between online and offline significantly affect the out come of a match between two players i would say you have no ground to stand on. I hope you can understand that it would be dumb of anybody who would blindly belief the statement of some players(who claim to have it right) when the physical evidence totally contradict there statement.

 

[J.D.E.]

Thats what i thought playing games was about, FUN not about whos top player and who is top tier and all this other bull. When are we gonna snap out of this nonsense? When were old and its too late, or are we gonna do it NOW?! Thats the question we should all ask ourselves..

You're missing point yo. It's not about the fact the this is a competitive game & offline is better & having fun. It's fact that people online who talk down & claim they're better than an offline player that has placed high in major tournament events. It's all fun & games but there's a measuring stick too. We all play the game because we like it & it's fun let's just be real, but you have people who make big claims but don't back up those claims & "wont" show up & do it.

Xcaliburbaldez Emann & Sonic Fox showed up & they got credit. Now everybody know them. Now people are gonna look out for them to see if they can keep up their wins in the events.

Again, before you come down on me, I'm not a high level player & yes I go to offline festivities. But people are not looking at the big picture.

 

[Prince Adon]

This topic is hilarious. Then again this site is hilarious.

You people really trying to justify that online means anything? No it doesn't. Like said before. It's only used as a form of practice. That is all. If you're expecting the same amount of respect as a offline player(if any at all) for winning online that is just silly. There are people willing to travel and promote the game and play in a lag free competitive environment and you're really trying to compare online to that?

Online is forcing you to play the game how it isn't even meant to be played. It doesn't matter how good yours(or the other player) connection is. It plays like sh** online and you can't play the game properly. How can you really justify who is better? You can't. Some people can't even learn in these conditions as much as others either because of how the netcode may effect their connection as a whole. Offline>Online. That's the way it always will be. That's the way it always should be. Simple as that.

If you want some respect get to a offline event. If you choose not to do so then you really have no reason to be getting mad.

 

[Sam Sultan]

This topic is hilarious. Then again this site is hilarious.

You people really trying to justify that online means anything? No it doesn't. Like said before. It's only used as a form of practice. That is all. If you're expecting the same amount of respect as a offline player(if any at all) for winning online that is just silly. There are people willing to travel and promote the game and play in a lag free competitive environment and you're really trying to compare online to that?

Online is forcing you to play the game how it isn't even meant to be played. It doesn't matter how good yours(or the other player) connection is. It plays like sh** online and you can't play the game properly. How can you really justify who is better? You can't. Some people can't even learn in these conditions as much as others either because of how the netcode may effect their connection as a whole. Offline>Online. That's the way it always will be. That's the way it always should be. Simple as that.

If you want some respect get to a offline event. If you choose not to do so then you really have no reason to be getting mad.

Again no prove for anything you just said you just expect everybody to belief you lol. I would recommend we post-pone the discussion of this matter to a later date when we have more tournament results(online or offline). Maybe then we could have a more meaningful discussion. Because right now it's all just TALK with no prove or backup.

 

[Raansu]

Honestly I vote this thread just be deleted and any discussion further about "online warriors" be locked/removed. Travel, place, get recognition, simple as that. Online warriors do not deserve any legit credit. Until you compete in a competitive environment you are a nobody. You can be an online warrior all you want, but don't expect recognition for playing online casual matches. Tournaments are where it counts, it has been where it ALWAYS counts. You can be a good player online all you want, but to get recognition you HAVE TO PROVE IT AT A TOURNAMENT.

Edit:

Again no prove for anything you just said you just expect everybody to belief you lol. I would recommend we post-pone the discussion of this matter to a later date when we have more tournament results(online or offline). Maybe then we could have a more meaningful discussion. Because right now it's all just TALK with no prove or backup.

Proof? We have had almost 10 years (DoA2U - DoA5) of experience with the major differences between online and offline. You act like we make this shit up but we have EXPERIENCED IT. Who are you, a complete nobody, to say we need proof of anything?

This topic isn't new. Its been happening with every DoA since DoA2U and we have to deal with all the newcomers every single time. Some of you accept it, some don't. The ones that don't? Good riddance.