DriftSlave
Active Member
I think the FGC has to make a new word for him because Scrub doesn't quite cut it anymore...
About morons online
- Thread starter HiguraShiki
- Start date
HiguraShiki
Active Member
Dave
Well-Known Member
Another thing. Why is it that if a high level player... or anyone that beats you for that matter automatically think you worship them and want to learn their ~ways.~ Seriously, I've been defeated many times and while I don't mind losing, people message me telling me what to do, that they can teach me and such. I mean I guess I appreciate it but I can win on my own. Do it all the time. It's funny though because it's from the people that like to use the ninjas to flip around the stages and use the same combos every second instead of just fighting me. Just today some idiot told me 'I beat you every time. I will always outrank you. You fought me fair and square and I won with no gimmicks." He went on about how he (or she for all I know) was so good at the game. Beating S's and then ended it with a lovely heart. I was going to ignore it, but I decided not to. After the last lag ridden match I had with it (all of them were trashed with lag.. like game freezing lag) I simply said "Don't flatter yourself. Maybe if you weren't stealing KFC's wifi to play the game I would have had a chance" then blocked the fool. I swear some people that win on this game think they are like god.
He said none of those things to me when we played with similar results. On the same token, he didn't seem focused either.
At this point, I think the real root of the problem regarding Degalon is his misguided perspective toward competitive players. Going by what he posted recently, he's been hanging around the wrong people in the competitive community in the past, and thus adopted that mentality he has now due to being berated constantly by those who can't take a loss... just a hunch, nothing more.
We should play more, Degalon. Next time, I'll even actually talk so I can understand your perspective better so we can work these misunderstandings out about competitive players in general. It'll probably be a few weeks due to issues renewing XBL on time, but it won't be long. Whaddaya say?
EDIT: Dave explained what I was trying to say in the second paragraph a lot better. Thanks.
HiguraShiki
Active Member
Those aren't high ranking players. Those are the "Online Warriors" we have been fighting this whole time. We've said this before on several threads. People win online and boast about their rank and winnings, claim they are better than most people, yet they do not even go offline to prove it. Quite a few people, including myself, have already stated various times that unless you prove yourself offline, you don't have the right to say crap. But nooooo, instead all these people come out of no where and start defending these online warriors.That was what we were trying to say, unfortunately no one bothers to listen to us...
Murakame
Active Member
Guaranteed damage requires alot less effort? You claim you win by "counters and defense". In other words most of the time you are either pressing the guard button or the hold button, with minimal usage of the attack buttons. On the other hand I have to work through that and stun you. Then play a guessing game to land the stun that even gives me my guaranteed damage. Even after all that there is a chance of me dropping my combo do to the strict timing for some Kasumi juggles (Kasumi players still drop her best 236T juggle to this day). So you are telling me what you do takes more effort while my sense of timing, precision and accuracy does not? That your skill of guessing is harder to utilize than learning how to make strikes flow together, how to pressure people, how to break through defense, how to time juggles properly? You talk about working for each hit and act like the people who are combo geniuses don't have to do that same work to pull a combo off. People have to HIT you first before they can do a combo right?
Sam Sultan
Active Member
Every time you are guessing a hold you have 25% chance on guessing right. The probability for guessing right again after the first counter can be calculated with the following formula: y=0.25^x, x being the number of counters and y being the probability of guessing right. As you can see the probability to guess a counter right is pretty slim since the opponent has 75% chance of hitting you and you have 25% chance on countering right, and as you keep countering the probability of guessing a countering right again reduces to almost nothing. Considering the fact that hold damage has been significantly reduced in DOA5 it is very unlikely to win just by spam countering. Thus in order to beat someone only by countering and blocking you require a 100% accurate guessing game(which is very unlikely to happen see the formula above) or a very good reading skill. So i would say yes it is much more difficult to win just by countering and blocking than simply by striking specially when you can also count on guaranteed damage. You can test this by trying it your self just try to win simply by countering and/or blocking and compare that with the situation in which you actually are using your strikes and guaranteed combos. I don't know why people think DOA5 is random since the odds to randomly counter someone to death are pretty slim and given the fact that counter damage has been significantly reduced(which i think is a very good thing) it is impossible to win just by countering alone. Counters in DOA5 can only be used as a tool to stop your opponent from doing further damage or to prevent your opponent from just mashing random buttons, it can not be used as a tool to win the whole match.
To often people are using the words"guessing game" as if though both characters have equal chance on succeeding which is not the case the attacker has 75% to win the "guessing game" and the defender has 25% on countering right.
To often people are using the words"guessing game" as if though both characters have equal chance on succeeding which is not the case the attacker has 75% to win the "guessing game" and the defender has 25% on countering right.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
This is completely incorrect. Allow Rikuto to explain this properly:
http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/actual-odds-of-beating-the-threshold.735/
Murakame
Active Member
Complete with numbers and calculations. Saved me the trouble of having to reply to Sultan.
Sam Sultan
Active Member
I have red the thread thank you for your post. However even tough everything said in that thread is true for a situation in which the opponent would simply stand there and do one of those things that are discussed in the thread and not consider mixing throws with striking, defending, holding, sidestepping and wiffing those odds are correct. But as soon as one would mix things up those odds don't hold anymore. As if for my calculations i was calculating the odds of winning just by randomly countering(not talking about evading moves since evading does not cause any damage on the opponent). And as i said and showed it is impossible to win with random counters the only way to beat some one by pure defending is by reading them very well.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
Rikuto's thread discusses throws. As for the rest, a smart player is only using a counter when he feels the opponent will attack. A smart opponent will only attack when it's his turn to attack. So defending, stepping, and holding don't come into play in this equation. I'm not going to stop my combo mid-stun and defend, step, or hold.
Evading is a major advantage of the low hold. Even the best players will use a low hold when they think a high attack is coming. To leave it out of your equation is essentially discussing the game at a lower skill level (since only new or inexperienced players would not think to evade with a low hold).
I disagree. There have been times when I use an attack that I have not used at all throughout 4 full rounds of play, and the opponent still counters. They did not read me well, they just guessed. There's a difference. And while you can't really win with nothing but counters, it can certainly change the tide of a match in your favor. That's a big deal in a game so reliant on guessing.
Sam Sultan
Active Member
I don't feel insulted in anyway i'm happy DrDogg linked the thread because it made me realize that my statement "An attacker has always 75% of winning the guessing game" was wrong since indeed low counters avoid high attacks and grabs and i forgot to take that in to consideration.
Just to make this clear i'm not trying to attack or offend anybody here just giving my opinion and i know this is totally off-topic but i'm gonna post this here and see what happens.
Rikuto:
4 point.
Three options can be cycled between to avoid everything you are doing, therefore on every guess you have a 2/3 chance of guessing correctly on attack.
2/3*2/3*2/3 = 8/27 or 29.6%
This means you, as the attacker, only have approximately a 30% chance of finishing your combo even if you are determined to strike as randomly as possible and your opponent is determined to hold without any clue of where you will be attacking. These are the actual odds.
Sam:
These odds or not correct since an attacker has not 3 options but 4.
Attacker's options: High attacks, mid-p, mid-k, low attacks, grabs and low grabs (6 options).
(Countering)Defender's options: High counter, low counter, mid-p counter and mid-k counter(4 options) This makes the odds for a successful counter 1on 4(25%)
Since low counters avoid grabs and high attacks(even tough it does leave the defender in disadvantage an if the defender decides to attack after evading high attacks or grabs after a low counter the attacker gets a free guaranteed hit on the defender with any move as fast as 15 frames) and counter low attacks these options can be seen as one option for the attacker and thus leaving the attacker with 4 options and thus the odds for a successful hit 3 on 4(75%). So basically the attacker has 75%(3/4) chance landing a hit and not 66.6%(2/3). This would make the above calculations for the first successful hit 3/4 = 75% for the second successful hit (3/4)^2 = 56.3% and for a 3rd successful hit (3/4)^3 = 27/64 = 42.2%. Now what does this mean, this only means that if you where to attack an randomly countering opponent you would most likely land the first hit and you would probably also land the 2nd hit but you are probably not gonna land the 3rd hit(Keep in mind that these are probabilities and thus not 100% facts also these are only valid when we are talking about a non crouching, totally random countering opponent). So if you launch the opponent after the first hit or even launch them right away you would probably be fine against a randomly countering opponent.
Now let's take a look at a defending opponent's likelihood to successfully counter your an attackers moves.
The probability of an defender to counter the attacker is 1 on 4 = 25%. It is not necessary to talk about what the odds are for a defender to counter the whole string since after on successful counter the whole situation is reset. But for those who are interested:
To counter the first and 2nd hit it's (1/4)^2 = 1/16(6.3%), to counter the first 2nd and 3rd hit it's (1/4)^3 = (1.6%)
There are also other miscalculations in Rikuto's thread but i'm not gonna correct them all in this thread. This is just to show you that an attacking opponent has advantage over an defending opponent in any situation.
If you think that i'm not correct or i made a miscalculation(although it's elementary mathematics) or whatever please respond with a clear description of what i did wrong or why you disagree with me TNX.
Sam Sultan
Active Member
I would like you to do this again if possible and record it if possible since i have never seen some one do that and i would be very interested in such a video.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
Only Awesmic feels attacked or offended, even when no one is talking to him. I don't think you have to worry about the rest of us.
I'll respond to the rest when I have a bit more time.
Sam Sultan
Active Member
Rikuto discuses throws as a respond to a counter not as a random input. Since the thread is for the most part about random inputs of two players he does not consider throws as a random input together with striking and defending in his 4 point section and thus makes wrong calculations. He does discus random throws but apart from random strikes so basically he discusses random throws only in a situation in which the opponent would only try to randomly grab you and wouldn't mix the throws with strikes.
Countering low to evade highs or grabs leaves the defender if he decides to attack at a disadvantage. And if you are really playing at a high level you should be able to take advantage of that.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
That would require me to play DoA...That's painful. My only point was you were saying its impossible when it really isn't. It may be rare but it does happen. Hell, Rikuto has beaten me before by pretty much only doing holds. It was a pretty painful experience.
Sam Sultan
Active Member
Let me correct myself it is not impossible to win just by countering but that would require very good reading however it is almost impossible to win by random countering.
Murakame
Active Member
This is not necessarily true. After a low hold causes a high attack to whiff a majority of the time the attacker is either at a disadvantage or the situation is back to neutral. This is because there are occasions where a low hold will recover so quickly that the defender can block the next stun. This situation has happened to me often when I use Kasumis 4PP. After I do 4PP a low hold comes out and I attempt to catch the low hold with 4H+K or a mid hitting attack, but the opponent is able to block it. The recovery is too fast for me to even attempt to low throw.